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Old
08-05-2009, 11:05 AM
  #26
EazyB97
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Originally Posted by TML4LIFE View Post
His drafting was good, Stralman was a great pick at where he was selected, late picks like Dido, Stalberg, Mitchell look like they could be good players. Tlusty/Kulemin could be good. Signing Kaberle, and Kubina were good moves as was Gill. Lindros and Allison were signed to one year cheap deals, no harm no foul. Don't want to get into a debate, just my thoughts. Rugsegger, Holzer, Gunnarson maybe Mikus are late round picks that may just make it.
He was good at filling the lower holes and identifying the needs of the team. Quinn overlooked our second line center hole for years, when it was one of JFJs first moves. Same with a defensive d-man (he brought in Klee). The lock-out was the downfall of the team. We just weren't in a strong position for it and JFJ wasn't the man to make a way out of our struggles.

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08-05-2009, 11:06 AM
  #27
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He would have been best suited as an amateur scout b/c he was above average at that. But his drafting certainly doesn't mask all the other blemishes.

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08-05-2009, 11:10 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TML4LIFE View Post
His drafting was good, Stralman was a great pick at where he was selected, late picks like Dido, Stalberg, Mitchell look like they could be good players. Tlusty/Kulemin could be good. Signing Kaberle, and Kubina were good moves as was Gill. Lindros and Allison were signed to one year cheap deals, no harm no foul. Don't want to get into a debate, just my thoughts. Rugsegger, Holzer, Gunnarson maybe Mikus are late round picks that may just make it.
Well it took him time to replace Quinn's scouts. I mean not everything he did was bad. Signing Kubina - good. Blake - bad.

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08-05-2009, 11:15 AM
  #29
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He was good at filling the lower holes and identifying the needs of the team. Quinn overlooked our second line center hole for years, when it was one of JFJs first moves. Same with a defensive d-man (he brought in Klee). The lock-out was the downfall of the team. We just weren't in a strong position for it and JFJ wasn't the man to make a way out of our struggles.
Problem is that the year after the lockout was the year to sell high. McCabe, Tucker, Sundin were at their highest value. McCabe was on the last year on his deal without the NTC and I remember Edmonton was offering king's ransom for Tucker.

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08-05-2009, 11:17 AM
  #30
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I can neither confirm nor deny if I miss him or not
hahaha lol.

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08-05-2009, 11:17 AM
  #31
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Not in the least. Total idiot who was in waaaayyyy over his greasy head.

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08-05-2009, 11:18 AM
  #32
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Problem is that the year after the lockout was the year to sell high. McCabe, Tucker, Sundin were at their highest value. McCabe was on the last year on his deal without the NTC and I remember Edmonton was offering king's ransom for Tucker.
Hard to sell when Management is telling you to try and make the playoffs. As for their peak value, seems like Sundin and Kaberle were at their peak in the Fletcher deadline, Tucker wasn't an upcoming UFA that first year out of the lock-out, he was signed for another season.

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08-05-2009, 11:26 AM
  #33
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Hard to sell when Management is telling you to try and make the playoffs. As for their peak value, seems like Sundin and Kaberle were at their peak in the Fletcher deadline, Tucker wasn't an upcoming UFA that first year out of the lock-out, he was signed for another season.
That bring me back to the point of him being the wrong person in an impossible situation and Peddie is the reason.

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08-05-2009, 11:27 AM
  #34
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don't miss him...

but..good scout....good guy..intelligent.

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08-05-2009, 11:27 AM
  #35
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and to think, most fans on this board loved jfj while he was in charge and defended him every chance they got. some saw very early on that he couldn't do the job, but not many.

don't think burke is much better though. his personality is the biggest thing he has going for him. he comes across like he knows what he's doing and shouldn't be questioned, but the results don't match his bravado and intimidation.

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08-05-2009, 11:28 AM
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Problem is that the year after the lockout was the year to sell high. McCabe, Tucker, Sundin were at their highest value. McCabe was on the last year on his deal without the NTC and I remember Edmonton was offering king's ransom for Tucker.
Yes! I thought back then that if JFJ was going to be the man he would have move Sundin.
Once that didn't happen I knew this franchise was in big trouble.

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08-05-2009, 11:28 AM
  #37
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Absolutely not.

He started well and ended poorly.

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08-05-2009, 11:35 AM
  #38
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I can't say I do. I really like Burke and have a lot of confidence in him. I have to say though: damn those were some entertaining days (from a management standpoint). JFJ's moves always seemed to be an exercise in what not to do as an NHL GM. I don't believe in JFJ's innocence either. I think he had powers to shape his team like he did. I wasn't posting on HFBoards when everything went down. Where you at least a little entertained by his incompetence?
I was entertained by the incompetence of this thread actually.

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08-05-2009, 11:35 AM
  #39
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Thinking back, I really believe Quinn should have left right away. Instead he was hung out to dry by Peddie and JFJ (the poor product he gave Quinn to work with).

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08-05-2009, 11:38 AM
  #40
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don't think burke is much better though. his personality is the biggest thing he has going for him. he comes across like he knows what he's doing and shouldn't be questioned, but the results don't match his bravado and intimidation.
As far as I can tell, it's been eerily similar -- start out with a flourish and make tall claims about "rebuilding" and "doing it right", which are then swiftly followed by turning around and doing the same old thing, acquiring veteran help from other teams, focusing on the near future and trying to make the playoffs. signing expensive free agents and signing/trading for crappy vets to block the very young talent they claim to want to develop.

Burke has unquestionably the better pedigree of the two, but he's made some truly awful moves so far (Kubina for Exelby is nearly as bad as anything Junior did). I think the biggest problem he has vis a vis a comparison to Junior's strategy is that the Leafs have ALREADY missed the playoffs several years in a row now. If he had taken over after the lockout instead of JFJ maybe things would have been different, but I doubt it.

It's not the fans that don't have the patience for a real rebuild, which is what everybody claims, it's the ownership. And until the ownership changes, we won't see a corresponding change in approach...they say the right things at the inaugural press conference, but their actions are the same old, same old.

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08-05-2009, 11:40 AM
  #41
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As far as I can tell, it's been eerily similar -- start out with a flourish and make tall claims about "rebuilding" and "doing it right", which are then swiftly followed by turning around and doing the same old thing, acquiring veteran help from other teams, focusing on the near future and trying to make the playoffs. signing expensive free agents and signing/trading for crappy vets to block the very young talent they claim to want to develop.

Burke has unquestionably the better pedigree of the two, but he's made some truly awful moves so far (Kubina for Exelby is nearly as bad as anything Junior did). I think the biggest problem he has vis a vis a comparison to Junior's strategy is that the Leafs have ALREADY missed the playoffs several years in a row now. If he had taken over after the lockout instead of JFJ maybe things would have been different, but I doubt it.

It's not the fans that don't have the patience for a real rebuild, which is what everybody claims, it's the ownership. And until the ownership changes, we won't see a corresponding change in approach...they say the right things at the inaugural press conference, but their actions are the same old, same old.
yup, I can't believe how many people are believing this rebuild crap.

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08-05-2009, 11:41 AM
  #42
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and to think, most fans on this board loved jfj while he was in charge and defended him every chance they got. some saw very early on that he couldn't do the job, but not many.

don't think burke is much better though. his personality is the biggest thing he has going for him. he comes across like he knows what he's doing and shouldn't be questioned, but the results don't match his bravado and intimidation.
Burke hasn't even been in charge for 1 full season. Making claims about results is ridiculous.

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08-05-2009, 11:45 AM
  #43
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Burke hasn't even been in charge for 1 full season. Making claims about results is ridiculous.
well, i meant his career so far. yes, i know he has a stanley cup and that's great, but he has plenty of awful results too and has made plenty of terrible decisions over the years.

i suspect the results will show that he's made some terrible decisions with the leafs too. but you're absolutely right, the results aren't in yet.

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08-05-2009, 11:50 AM
  #44
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As far as I can tell, it's been eerily similar -- start out with a flourish and make tall claims about "rebuilding" and "doing it right", which are then swiftly followed by turning around and doing the same old thing, acquiring veteran help from other teams, focusing on the near future and trying to make the playoffs. signing expensive free agents and signing/trading for crappy vets to block the very young talent they claim to want to develop.

Burke has unquestionably the better pedigree of the two, but he's made some truly awful moves so far (Kubina for Exelby is nearly as bad as anything Junior did). I think the biggest problem he has vis a vis a comparison to Junior's strategy is that the Leafs have ALREADY missed the playoffs several years in a row now. If he had taken over after the lockout instead of JFJ maybe things would have been different, but I doubt it.

It's not the fans that don't have the patience for a real rebuild, which is what everybody claims, it's the ownership. And until the ownership changes, we won't see a corresponding change in approach...they say the right things at the inaugural press conference, but their actions are the same old, same old.
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yup, I can't believe how many people are believing this rebuild crap.
Until Burke begins mortgaging the future for veteran or over the hill talent (Rask for Raycroft, 1st, 2nd, 4th for Toskala, 2nd for Perreault) we can't make that claim yet. Although your comparisons on the vet movement may become valid based on the opening night roster.

I'm willing to give Burke a bit of rope as I've done with any Leafs GM.

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08-05-2009, 11:53 AM
  #45
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hey thanks for the all the links that you are posting, i can not listen them at work but definitely when i get home.

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08-05-2009, 11:56 AM
  #46
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Classic.

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08-05-2009, 12:00 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TML4LIFE View Post
His drafting was good, Stralman was a great pick at where he was selected, late picks like Dido, Stalberg, Mitchell look like they could be good players. Tlusty/Kulemin could be good. Signing Kaberle, and Kubina were good moves as was Gill. Lindros and Allison were signed to one year cheap deals, no harm no foul. Don't want to get into a debate, just my thoughts. Rugsegger, Holzer, Gunnarson maybe Mikus are late round picks that may just make it.
High draft picks and selection are often influenced by the GM in power. . Later round picks are made by the amateur scouting team with the GM likely never even seeing nor hearing of some of those players taken.. A GM receives credit simply through the process that he is the boss of those that work for him and employed below him...

There was an actual "After the Draft Leafs TV presentation" that showed Leafs chief Euro Scout Thommie Bergman having to work hard to sell Anton Stralman's selection to JFJ at the time of the pick as Ferguson was against it. Bergman won the point and Leafs made the selection, against the better judgement of the GM..

Thommie Bergman has been a Leafs scout before even Pat Quinn became GM and many of Leafs Euro prospects that we do have particulary Swedes taken like Stralman and Stalberg etc were all a result of Leafs Euro scouting team for the most part.

So if late round draft pick selections are the "Best Of" what a GM accomplished during his tenure, and he had little to do with the process then that isn't very much!!! .. Any GM in power at the time that relies and trusts his amateur scouting team would have accomplished the same thing.

The scouting team is simply directed by those in charge as to the type of players he likes and would like the scouting team to put emphasis on as BPA.. The scouting team then puts actual names and faces to those selections and picks based on criteria.

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08-05-2009, 12:01 PM
  #48
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Until Burke begins mortgaging the future for veteran or over the hill talent (Rask for Raycroft, 1st, 2nd, 4th for Toskala, 2nd for Perreault) we can't make that claim yet. Although your comparisons on the vet movement may become valid based on the opening night roster.
Well, why sign Wallin? Don't we have enough younger guys to play or at least try out in the 7-9th forward spots? Why trade for Primeau? Why get rid of Stralman and acquire Exelby...can't Oreskovic, who did decently in his callup last season, be the 6th or 7th guy? We'll never find out now. If White can play 20 minutes, why have the Leafs blocked him out of the top 4 by signing Komisarek and Beauchemin?

The answer is simple...all the things Burke's doing are "now" moves, to make the playoffs THIS year. Just like Ferguson tried to do.

There's no rebuilding going on.

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I'm willing to give Burke a bit of rope as I've done with any Leafs GM.
Sure. And I think he's a superior GM to JFJ. But it's obvious that no "rebuild" will be happening under his watch.

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08-05-2009, 12:11 PM
  #49
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Well, why sign Wallin? Don't we have enough younger guys to play or at least try out in the 7-9th forward spots? Why trade for Primeau? Why get rid of Stralman and acquire Exelby...can't Oreskovic, who did decently in his callup last season, be the 6th or 7th guy? We'll never find out now. If White can play 20 minutes, why have the Leafs blocked him out of the top 4 by signing Komisarek and Beauchemin?

The answer is simple...all the things Burke's doing are "now" moves, to make the playoffs THIS year. Just like Ferguson tried to do.

There's no rebuilding going on.
I only pointed to the mortgaging of the future for immediate talent for comparisons. Everything else I do agree with.

I look forward to our GM's being tested and IMO the roster on opening night a huge test on his credibility. We'll all know if Bozak, Tlusty, Stalberg, and Hanson "have the right stuff" after training camp. To see all four being sent down to the marlies would be irrefutable evidence.

I'll be watching training camp closely.

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Sure. And I think he's a superior GM to JFJ. But it's obvious that no "rebuild" will be happening under his watch.
Definitely not the one I wanted but as many teams have shown us there are more then one way to skin a cat.

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08-05-2009, 12:13 PM
  #50
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Until Burke begins mortgaging the future for veteran or over the hill talent (Rask for Raycroft, 1st, 2nd, 4th for Toskala, 2nd for Perreault) we can't make that claim yet. Although your comparisons on the vet movement may become valid based on the opening night roster.

I'm willing to give Burke a bit of rope as I've done with any Leafs GM.
the problem I have is he's limited nearly any chance for youngsters to make the roster and the use of the salary cap. He has an excess amount of forwards, with youngsters not even counted in. He said he's willing to waive players on one way contracts but he may be playing the bluff game. Why risk losing an asset for nothing and he cannot expect much or if any teams would be interested in our players. Secondly, he has for some reason the belief that Leaf nation can't stand a long rebuild and that they have to spend to the cap. Is it the fans or is it ownership? What Burke said and what ownership said before the season (something along the lines of Tannebaum saying if we have to be bad a few more years they'er be okay with it) contradict each other. Why spend to the cap when you won't be competing. He's trapping himself to a corner like he did Anaheim. His contracts dished out to Morrison and Bertuzzi were brilliant on his part. It's a wait and see moment but as of now, I can't tell what direction this team is going.

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