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Do you miss JFJ?

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:24 PM
  #51
overnath
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
High draft picks and selection are often influenced by the GM in power. . Later round picks are made by the amateur scouting team with the GM likely never even seeing nor hearing of some of those players taken.. A GM receives credit simply through the process that he is the boss of those that work for him and employed below him...

There was an actual "After the Draft Leafs TV presentation" that showed Leafs chief Euro Scout Thommie Bergman having to work hard to sell Anton Stralman's selection to JFJ at the time of the pick as Ferguson was against it. Bergman won the point and Leafs made the selection, against the better judgement of the GM..

Thommie Bergman has been a Leafs scout before even Pat Quinn became GM and many of Leafs Euro prospects that we do have particulary Swedes taken like Stralman and Stalberg etc were all a result of Leafs Euro scouting team for the most part.

So if late round draft pick selections are the "Best Of" what a GM accomplished during his tenure, and he had little to do with the process then that isn't very much!!! .. Any GM in power at the time that relies and trusts his amateur scouting team would have accomplished the same thing.

The scouting team is simply directed by those in charge as to the type of players he likes and would like the scouting team to put emphasis on as BPA.. The scouting team then puts actual names and faces to those selections and picks based on criteria.

I really wish someone could find a clip of this, would be awesome.... as far as jfj goes, I really struggle to think of anything he did that made any progress. But at the same time, he was on a short lease, and had to answer to people that wanted a contender now,not in 5 years.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:33 PM
  #52
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Do you miss JFJ?

Not in the slightest.

He seemed like a good guy and MLSE probably didn't help with their antics but he just wasn't a good GM. Good guy, not cut out for the job imo.

One of his best moves was drafting Tuuka Rask...one of his worst, trading Tuuka Rask for Raycroft.

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Old
08-05-2009, 12:36 PM
  #53
Frankie
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Definitely not the one I wanted but as many teams have shown us there are more then one way to skin a cat.
this is why i have trouble with the word "rebuiid". what does that even mean?

i always assume every team is always rebuilding. every team is constantly changing and trying to improve.

every team is trying to "rebuild" as fast as possible and win the cup as quickly as possible. burke and the leafs are no different.

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:24 PM
  #54
LTL
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
this is why i have trouble with the word "rebuiid". what does that even mean?

i always assume every team is always rebuilding. every team is constantly changing and trying to improve.

every team is trying to "rebuild" as fast as possible and win the cup as quickly as possible. burke and the leafs are no different.
Not sure about that statement and it's probably the reason for the entire rebuild/retool definition debate.

Quick few examples:
  • J.S Giguere had the leafs as one of their teams on his NTC list. He IMO is the superior goaltender vs Toskala and Gus, this year and probably next.
  • The Kings could have signed a legit goaltender over the last 3-4 seasons but often opt to going with youth and the pains that come with it. Even with their self imposed cap they would have been able to fit a legit #1. Khabibulin/Roloson vs acquiring Ryan Smyth. The Kings have taken the longest possible route in their supposed rebuild.

Burke could mortgage a hell of a lot more to "win now" but so far hasn't.

It's a tricky debate because both sides have a valid argument.

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:30 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
this is why i have trouble with the word "rebuiid". what does that even mean?

i always assume every team is always rebuilding. every team is constantly changing and trying to improve.

every team is trying to "rebuild" as fast as possible and win the cup as quickly as possible. burke and the leafs are no different.
I agree with you that the term "rebuild" is a problem. you have to have had something there in the first place in order to rebuild it.

I see it more as putting a proper system in place.

Re: Burke - we won't know until opening night if he's nurturing a youth movement or passing on the future to make the playoffs.

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by iMissSThomas View Post
Thinking back, I really believe Quinn should have left right away. Instead he was hung out to dry by Peddie and JFJ (the poor product he gave Quinn to work with).
The team Quinn was fired on was the team Quinn wanted to build. It had his goalie, his core and JFJ added players that fit Quinns desires. He wanted Chow to play with Sundin (and it failed), he always loved having big centers, and JFJ gave him that. It was a big slow team in a fast, small NHL. He gave Quinn what he wanted, but it wasn't what he needed. Quinn's time ran out here, he should've been let go after the first Philly loss if not earlier.

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Old
08-05-2009, 01:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by overnath View Post
I really wish someone could find a clip of this, would be awesome.... as far as jfj goes, I really struggle to think of anything he did that made any progress. But at the same time, he was on a short lease, and had to answer to people that wanted a contender now,not in 5 years.
If you want a clip of this then take a video camera into a cow field and take some pictures of what you see on the ground.

“I recall the decision at the (draft) table” recalled Leafs General Manager John Ferguson Jr.. “There were three or four names. We looked at (European scout) Thommie Bergman and we said, ‘is this a guy we think can play some day?'

“He said, ‘absolutely.’ We made the pick. It was a seventh rounder and who knows where it goes but give Anton Stralman credit. He has really made some strides.”


http://fan-in-leafland.livejournal.c...+championships

Ferguson challenged his scout on his pick as any good GM should do at the draft table. The fact that he was still doing it in the 7th round shows that he was into the process.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:06 PM
  #58
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I wanted that ******* fired for years and probably lost some hair while waiting for MLSE to pull their thumbs out of their ***** and fire that failure.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:14 PM
  #59
Schenn
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JFJ punch's babys in the face. No, No i dont.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:18 PM
  #60
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I don't really miss JFJ at all. I honestly don't understand why someone would.

I'm happy we have Burke on board & I think he is going to do a good job for us moving forward.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:21 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Schenn View Post
JFJ punch's babys in the face. No, No i dont.
What?

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:38 PM
  #62
Frankie
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Not sure about that statement and it's probably the reason for the entire rebuild/retool definition debate.

Quick few examples:
  • J.S Giguere had the leafs as one of their teams on his NTC list. He IMO is the superior goaltender vs Toskala and Gus, this year and probably next.
  • The Kings could have signed a legit goaltender over the last 3-4 seasons but often opt to going with youth and the pains that come with it. Even with their self imposed cap they would have been able to fit a legit #1. Khabibulin/Roloson vs acquiring Ryan Smyth. The Kings have taken the longest possible route in their supposed rebuild.

Burke could mortgage a hell of a lot more to "win now" but so far hasn't.

It's a tricky debate because both sides have a valid argument.
well take the kings as an example. if they did sign a roloson or a khabibulin, would that have helped them win the cup any faster? it might have made them a slightly better team immediately, but does it get them to the stanley cup any faster?

every team wants to get to the stanley cup as fast as possible. but that doesn't mean every team is trying to trade their good prospects for current nhlers.

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Old
08-05-2009, 03:20 PM
  #63
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i dont, but im sure boston misses him.

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Old
08-05-2009, 03:50 PM
  #64
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Do I miss JFJ? You may as well ask me if I miss the big ugly boil the doctor removed from my backside.

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Old
08-05-2009, 04:01 PM
  #65
LTL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
well take the kings as an example. if they did sign a roloson or a khabibulin, would that have helped them win the cup any faster? it might have made them a slightly better team immediately, but does it get them to the stanley cup any faster?

every team wants to get to the stanley cup as fast as possible. but that doesn't mean every team is trying to trade their good prospects for current nhlers.
Both were UFA's this season and goaltenders have come and gone off the market. Getting to the playoffs is much closer to the cup then finishing in the basement of the NHL.

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08-05-2009, 05:07 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Then I guess that it is kind of ironic that Fletcher and Burke left Ferguson's amateur scouting department almost untouched.
future potential =/= current ability

Ferguson drafted fine, but when trying to get guys to play roles on the team he had no idea what to do. I always maintain he would have been fine in a scouting role. As a GM who's supposed to manage assets though, he was terrible.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:15 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Wilma View Post
future potential =/= current ability

Ferguson drafted fine, but when trying to get guys to play roles on the team he had no idea what to do. I always maintain he would have been fine in a scouting role. As a GM who's supposed to manage assets though, he was terrible.
Fill me in on that managing of assets thing.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:18 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilma View Post
future potential =/= current ability

Ferguson drafted fine, but when trying to get guys to play roles on the team he had no idea what to do. I always maintain he would have been fine in a scouting role. As a GM who's supposed to manage assets though, he was terrible.
the scouting staff is still status quo until the young players make a big impact and not just be role players.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:51 PM
  #69
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Well it took him time to replace Quinn's scouts. I mean not everything he did was bad. Signing Kubina - good. Blake - bad.
Several posts have been made as to what Blake was signed for, in comparisson to other players with the same abilities/results, and what they get paid. Same can be said for McCabe, it's a debateable topic. Agreed with Easy, Klee was a good pick up, and the contracts for Antro and Pony were very good IMO.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:56 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by ugotmybeef View Post
the scouting staff is still status quo until the young players make a big impact and not just be role players.
Please explain the logic behind a status quo scouting department? JFJ's scouting department were still in place when Fletch was running the show and then Burke. Guess they couldn't find some replacements in time for the draft? Did you come up with this one on your own?

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:14 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by sixtyone View Post
JFJ's interviews have been much better since he got fired... he was on OTR talking about the draft and he just seemed so relaxed...

it just never seemed like he was the guy in control...
That's because he wasn't. Richard Peddie's hands have been all over this team for years and he's run the on-ice product into the ground. That's why having Burke around is so nice, he basically pushed Peddie out of the spotlight and finally our GM has the control. I never thought JFJ should have been a GM to begin with (no duh) but Peddie hired him, yet he' still around selling condo's or whatever.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:27 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Tavares in 09 View Post
That's because he wasn't. Richard Peddie's hands have been all over this team for years and he's run the on-ice product into the ground. That's why having Burke around is so nice, he basically pushed Peddie out of the spotlight and finally our GM has the control. I never thought JFJ should have been a GM to begin with (no duh) but Peddie hired him, yet he' still around selling condo's or whatever.

JFJ actually did the fans a favour. Without his ineptitude, we wouldn't have someone like Burke that has full control over hockey operations.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:37 PM
  #73
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Ferguson reminds me of George Bush.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:46 PM
  #74
LTL
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Originally Posted by tinfoilcup View Post
JFJ actually did the fans a favour. Without his ineptitude, we wouldn't have someone like Burke that has full control over hockey operations.


The straw that broke the camels back.

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Old
08-05-2009, 06:59 PM
  #75
Frankie
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Both were UFA's this season and goaltenders have come and gone off the market. Getting to the playoffs is much closer to the cup then finishing in the basement of the NHL.
we don't know that the kings ever could have signed either of those goalies.

but would signing either of them get the kings any closer to the cup? sure, they might make the playoffs, and that would give their youngsters more experience. but there's no way they win a cup or come close to it with khabi or roloson over the next couple of years.

its a difficult thing to define, but i just don't get the whole "rebuilding" thing. how long is a "true rebuild" supposed to take?

i definitely believe every team wants to win as fast as possible. at least, i should hope they do. (if not, the league has a problem). but that doesn't mean every team is acquiring as many legit current nhlers as possible. every team has to realize where they stand, when their roster is going to be truly competitive for the stanley cup, and work around that.

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