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Old
08-05-2009, 01:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyndevil View Post
I haven't looked up White's stats, but don't we already have players like Oduya and Greene who are similar type players?
He's more of a Salvadore type of player, except he is MUCH better than Bryce. I say HELL YES to this deal.

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08-05-2009, 01:37 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
there are several thing's wrong with this

one peverley performed like he did for half a season, not a month, nopt on and off, he was solid for half a season. that's not just getting hot, that's being good.

two kozlov was just slightly better than he normally is last year

three salmela is a lot more important than you are thinking. it would not surprise me at all to see him take kubina's spot in the top 4 when he leaves next season.

four white normally has just as many, if not more, points than zubrus so he's not replacing him.

so the only thing here is asking if we value what may or may not be an upgrade over peverley higher than salmela and a 2nd round pick

i say no
I never said Peverley was just on a hot streak, I said he was half a season removed from the AHL and still far from proven. And if it turns out he can maintain that level of play while centering Armstrong and someone else, Atlanta becomes a very fearsome team. There's still a role for Peverley on the team even with Zubrus.

I never advocated Zubrus replace white, White is Little's center, Zubrus would be Kovalchuk's and Antropov's, and I feel that line would seriously overachieve since their playing styles mesh so well.

Kozlov was a 41 point player the season before the last one and everyone and their mother wanted to run him out of town. He's also becoming pretty old now, and I'd say expecting him to repeat with over 60 points is a reach, even if possible.

And while Salmella could be a good top 4 on some teams if he develops, a Salmella-Hainsey pairing would just bleed goals against. Valabik, if he can learn to skate, would be a much better option.

Also, it's not as big of a gamble to expect Zubrus to regain his form as people think, he's still 31, pretty healthy and simply hadn't gotten a top line center role in the last 2 years, while playing with people whose styles he doesn't mesh with offensively when in a top 6 role. He needs puck hogs on his line who are good at drawing attention and stretching out the ice while he gets in position and finishes guys off in the corners. Elias and Gionta are pretty much the opposite of those types of players, that's why the anti-Zubrus (Gomez) worked so well with them. Kovalchuk-Zubrus would likely have very similar chemistry to Dubinsky-Jagr.

The thing we're asking is whether Atlanta is going to be noticeably better with Zubrus (for the next 4 years) than Salmella and whoever that 2nd round pick yields.

I say it's very likely that they are, even if he eventually is relegated to the 3rd line over the duration of his contract.


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Old
08-05-2009, 01:45 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
I never said Peverley was just on a hot streak, I said he was half a season removed from the AHL and still far from proven. And if it turns out he can maintain that level of play while centering Armstrong and someone else, Atlanta becomes a very fearsome team. There's still a role for Peverley on the team even with Zubrus.

I never advocated Zubrus replace white, White is Little's center, Zubrus would be Kovalchuk's and Antropov's, and I feel that line would seriously overachieve since their playing styles mesh so well.

Kozlov was a 41 point player the season before the last one and everyone and their mother wanted to run him out of town. He's also becoming pretty old now, and I'd say expecting him to repeat with over 60 points is a reach, even if possible.

And while Salmella could be a good top 4 on some teams if he develops, a Salmella-Hainsey pairing would just bleed goals against.

Also, it's not as big of a gamble to expect Zubrus to regain his form as people think, he's still 31, pretty healthy and simply hadn't gotten a top line center role in the last 2 years, while playing with people whose styles he doesn't mesh with offensively when in a top 6 role. He needs puck hogs on his line who are good at drawing attention and stretching out the ice while he gets in position and finishes guys off in the corners. Elias and Gionta are pretty much the opposite of those types of players, that's why the anti-Zubrus (Gomez) worked so well with them. Kovalchuk-Zubrus would likely have very similar chemistry to Dubinsky-Jagr.
peverley was on waivers because he is not good in a bottom six role

he must stay in the top 6 to be effective

kozlov also played the whole season with multiple injuries the season before and his stats that season are a clear anomaly when looking at his career

the fact is we just don't have room for another top 6 player without shipping another out and we aren't going to do that until we see if peverley will continue to be an effective top 6 player

in other words we won't bring in anyone for our top 6 until the season starts

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08-05-2009, 01:56 PM
  #29
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So Toronto gets another Defenceman, while trading a Forward and a Defenceman away, plus gets a 1st and second..

This doesn't really help us at all, other than giving us a 1st and 2nd..

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08-05-2009, 02:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
peverley was on waivers because he is not good in a bottom six role

he must stay in the top 6 to be effective

kozlov also played the whole season with multiple injuries the season before and his stats that season are a clear anomaly when looking at his career

the fact is we just don't have room for another top 6 player without shipping another out and we aren't going to do that until we see if peverley will continue to be an effective top 6 player

in other words we won't bring in anyone for our top 6 until the season starts
In Nashville. If he's put on a scoring oriented 3rd line with 15-17 minutes of icetime he can still be very effective. If you want a Sami Pahlsson type performance out of him like Trotz did, then yeah, you're gonna be disappointed.

Atlanta could essentially afford to spend 90% of its time at ES on the attack if this deal went through, especially if they sign someone like Seidenberg, which would allow for 3 puck moving squads.

A hypothetical team of

Kovalchuk Zubrus Antropov
Kozlov White Little
Armstrong Peverley Kane
Thorburn Reasoner Slater/_____

Bogosian Enstrom
Kubina Hainsey
Valabik Seidenberg

Lehtonen
Hedberg/Pavelec

Is a legitimate cup, let alone playoff contender, especially if Slater's place is taken by someone like Betts. That top 9 constitutes a top 10 if not top 5 offense in the league, which has a good dose of everything - scoring and playmaking ability, puck protection, physical play, boardwork, forecheck, net crashing, defensive awareness, you name it. Defense is also in the top half of the league, possibly top 10, since Bogosian should have twice the impact this year as he had last year (when he was a rookie and battling through a broken leg), and the addition of Kubina is huge (as would an addition of Seidenberg, if they actually did it). Powerplay would also be one of the best in the league, and a PK with options Reasoner, Zubrus, Little, Amstrong, Kubina, Valabik would likely improve substantially as well. This is a team with literally no real weaknesses if Lehtonen can stay healthy and all the newcomers buy into Anderson's system.

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Old
08-05-2009, 02:34 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by DevilsNJ4 View Post
He's more of a Salvadore type of player, except he is MUCH better than Bryce. I say HELL YES to this deal.
Really, I thought he was a good skating, first pass type of player. However, we already have Sally, White and hopefully Corrente, what would we do with him?

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:01 PM
  #32
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You still never answered why Toronto does this... There really is no reason for them to.
Personally as a leafs fan i would do this, but would prefer a forward in return instead of Salmela, we get a 1st and a 2nd and a decent dman for Stajan and White, Yes please!

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08-05-2009, 05:12 PM
  #33
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Stajan and White for Salmella, 1st and 2nd

LOL, where do i sign before they catch on to this robery?

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:24 PM
  #34
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atlanta would not do this. they just got salmela, and shouldn't be dealing a second as well for a player they don't really need.

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Old
08-05-2009, 05:44 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
In Nashville. If he's put on a scoring oriented 3rd line with 15-17 minutes of icetime he can still be very effective. If you want a Sami Pahlsson type performance out of him like Trotz did, then yeah, you're gonna be disappointed.

Atlanta could essentially afford to spend 90% of its time at ES on the attack if this deal went through, especially if they sign someone like Seidenberg, which would allow for 3 puck moving squads.

A hypothetical team of

Kovalchuk Zubrus Antropov
Kozlov White Little
Armstrong Peverley Kane
Thorburn Reasoner Slater/_____

Bogosian Enstrom
Kubina Hainsey
Valabik Seidenberg

Lehtonen
Hedberg/Pavelec

Is a legitimate cup, let alone playoff contender, especially if Slater's place is taken by someone like Betts. That top 9 constitutes a top 10 if not top 5 offense in the league, which has a good dose of everything - scoring and playmaking ability, puck protection, physical play, boardwork, forecheck, net crashing, defensive awareness, you name it. Defense is also in the top half of the league, possibly top 10, since Bogosian should have twice the impact this year as he had last year (when he was a rookie and battling through a broken leg), and the addition of Kubina is huge (as would an addition of Seidenberg, if they actually did it). Powerplay would also be one of the best in the league, and a PK with options Reasoner, Zubrus, Little, Amstrong, Kubina, Valabik would likely improve substantially as well. This is a team with literally no real weaknesses if Lehtonen can stay healthy and all the newcomers buy into Anderson's system.
atlanta already had a top ten offense last year and then they added antropov

they DO NOT NEED OFFENSE

i would much rather have salmela, and a 2nd round pick

you just don't trade for something you don't need

for the first time in pretty much forever the majority of our players were on the team the season before and you want to change that?

if we're a month into the season and peverley only has 2 goals and 3 assists we have a problem and we might reconsider a trade like this but as of now we don't need zubrus so there is no need to give up something we do need(salmela) to get him

maybe if the deal was zubrus for white and nothing else the thrashers would do it but it's no so they have no need to do it

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08-05-2009, 06:02 PM
  #36
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I wouldn't do it.

I rather keep a 1st round pick then add someone like White. If Lou does decide to trade his 1st + ??? for a PMD, I'm certain he can do better than Ian White.

People seem to think that Zubrus is like dead weight on our roster and is taking cap space for nothing... HE ISN'T. He's our "new" John Madden. He's the exact 3rd liner Lou loves to have on his team. He's got size, speed, plays a sound 2 way game and can average 40 pts. a season on a "checking" line.

It's not our fault if people keep on thinking that he's top 6 material when he's a very dominant 3rd liner center.
I <3 3rd liners making 3.5m, or he stays on the second line and holds back Elias and Rolston. Either way, i want him gone. Between him, Bryce, and Pando i often wonder what Lou is thinking when he hands out some of these contracts. What would you rather have, Zubrus, Pando, and Bryce or Brian Rafalski + 2-3 million EXTRA in cap?

That all being said, New Jersey takes this and runs.

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08-05-2009, 06:41 PM
  #37
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Leafs take this without a second thought. They'd miss White, but they wouldn't turn down that package.

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08-05-2009, 08:54 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Rhodes 10 View Post
atlanta already had a top ten offense last year and then they added antropov

they DO NOT NEED OFFENSE

i would much rather have salmela, and a 2nd round pick

you just don't trade for something you don't need

for the first time in pretty much forever the majority of our players were on the team the season before and you want to change that?

if we're a month into the season and peverley only has 2 goals and 3 assists we have a problem and we might reconsider a trade like this but as of now we don't need zubrus so there is no need to give up something we do need(salmela) to get him

maybe if the deal was zubrus for white and nothing else the thrashers would do it but it's no so they have no need to do it
They need more physical and defensively responsible forwards who can contribute to a forecheck and a PK. The only one in the top 6 is Little, and Antropov underachieves in that regard.

Do you really see White as less important than Salmella? He's a dirt cheap 60-70 point center, Salmella is a 3rd pairing defenseman who mans the point on the PP and might, keyword might, become top 4 caliber if his defense significantly improves.

Antropov is much more one dimensional offensively than Zubrus, and yet they signed him.

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08-05-2009, 09:06 PM
  #39
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why are we giving up white, why not move finger/MvR first?

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Old
08-05-2009, 09:44 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
They need more physical and defensively responsible forwards who can contribute to a forecheck and a PK. The only one in the top 6 is Little, and Antropov underachieves in that regard.

Do you really see White as less important than Salmella? He's a dirt cheap 60-70 point center, Salmella is a 3rd pairing defenseman who mans the point on the PP and might, keyword might, become top 4 caliber if his defense significantly improves.

Antropov is much more one dimensional offensively than Zubrus, and yet they signed him.
i don't think i said salmela was more important than white

i think i said salmela is more important than having an extra white

zubrus might as well be white, he has a little more defensive upside and a little less offensive upside and he costs more

i'd rather just keep salmela than trade him for something we don't need

we don't NEED zubrus

i'm not saying he isn't a good player but we don't NEED him

now if we can trade salmela for a cheap pk specialist for the third line then great trade him but we don't NEED a top 6 forward

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08-05-2009, 09:50 PM
  #41
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I'd hate to give up White, but I'd do that deal for the Leafs.

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08-05-2009, 10:37 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by thepublichairs View Post
why are we giving up white, why not move finger/MvR first?
Because the Devils have no interest in either of them (Finger is overpaid and MVR left NJ with hard feelings on both sides, Lou isn't going to trade for him), but White would have good value.

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08-05-2009, 10:44 PM
  #43
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If we wanted a Zubrus then we would keep going after Manny Malhotra.

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08-06-2009, 01:00 AM
  #44
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If we wanted a Zubrus then we would keep going after Manny Malhotra.
That's like saying if you wanted Todd White you'd go after Marty Reasoner.

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Old
08-06-2009, 01:49 AM
  #45
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That's like saying if you wanted Todd White you'd go after Marty Reasoner.
I think he means there are still good UFA available like Malhotra that could help the PK that the Thrashers can sign for free without having to give up an early draft pick and a promising young player.

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Old
08-06-2009, 01:52 AM
  #46
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I think he means there are still good UFA available like Malhotra that could help the PK that the Thrashers can sign for free without having to give up an early draft pick and a promising young player.
In that sense I guess it makes sense. Malhotra however has been a 4th liner his career except a 10 game stint with Nash and Huselius where he caught fire. Zubrus played most of his career on the top 6 and can be an effective all around threat if centering the right type player.

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08-06-2009, 02:23 AM
  #47
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In that sense I guess it makes sense. Malhotra however has been a 4th liner his career except a 10 game stint with Nash and Huselius where he caught fire. Zubrus played most of his career on the top 6 and can be an effective all around threat if centering the right type player.
Yes but the Thrashers don't really need a scorer. They need a good defensive forward like Malhotra. Zubrus might be defensively responsible but if they can sign Malhotra and give up nothing then it makes more sense.


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