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Balsillie back in the bidding

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Old
08-06-2009, 08:30 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by asdf View Post
That's what I don't fully understand. There is the argument that nobody should be able to tell the league who owns a team and where they are located, and that seems reasonable.

But what if a team is in very bad shape (like Phoenix) and the owner wants to try and get out of the mess? How can the league put up a roadblock to prevent him from doing that?
Well, at this point, the judge is simply opening up the bidding to anyone and everyone, regardless of what the NHL thinks, because that's the letter of bankruptcy law. You're right, they can't preside over a shambles and then pick and choose who gets to bail out the people who financed the mess. Capital has rights, it seems.

I'm not sure whether or not simply opening the bidding up to everyone means that those bidding can make their offers conditional on moving the team. I imagine the NHL will fight that when the time comes. At the moment, it looks like they need to A) get someone to match Balsillie's bankroll and B) substantiate their claims that Balsillie is not a fit owner. That second one is going to be difficult. The way I read the NHL's statements on the matter earlier this week, they're little more than cleverly worded character assassination.

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08-06-2009, 08:54 AM
  #27
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Well, at this point, the judge is simply opening up the bidding to anyone and everyone, regardless of what the NHL thinks, because that's the letter of bankruptcy law. You're right, they can't preside over a shambles and then pick and choose who gets to bail out the people who financed the mess. Capital has rights, it seems.

I'm not sure whether or not simply opening the bidding up to everyone means that those bidding can make their offers conditional on moving the team. I imagine the NHL will fight that when the time comes. At the moment, it looks like they need to A) get someone to match Balsillie's bankroll and B) substantiate their claims that Balsillie is not a fit owner. That second one is going to be difficult. The way I read the NHL's statements on the matter earlier this week, they're little more than cleverly worded character assassination.
I read a post suggesting that if things aren't going the league's way and it looks like Balsillie will get the team, the league may just remove the Coyotes from the league.

Not sure on the validity of that.

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08-06-2009, 09:23 AM
  #28
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I read a post suggesting that if things aren't going the league's way and it looks like Balsillie will get the team, the league may just remove the Coyotes from the league.

Not sure on the validity of that.
I'm all for a dispersal draft.

Who's the 7th and 37th best player within that organization?

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08-06-2009, 09:30 AM
  #29
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Hypothetically.. What would happen if one day Bettman is like 'We're moving the Leafs to Kansas City'. What would happen?
Two words: Tattoo Killer

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08-06-2009, 09:43 AM
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Isn't the NHL supposedly run as a business? How does it make business sense to take a lower offer to keep the team in Phoenix where it will continue to lose money, rather than take the higher offer to bring it to a city where it will unquestionably make a ton of money? From a business standpoint, this makes no sense at all.
The NHL has an asset right now: the right to set up a team in Hamilton. If the NHL were to auction off an expansion franchise in Hamilton they could probably get more than $300 million. Instead Basillie wants to receive that asset for far less money and also his money won't go to the NHL owners. This is just one reason why Basillie's plan makes no business sense to the NHL.

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Originally Posted by hullsy47 View Post
itd be nice if bettman looked at the othr people nvolved in bankrupcty .....i been there .the creditors lke to get paid too .....u know the old saying?"u like to be kissed a bit while your being ...ed ? i think its been way too long another nhl franchise hasnt come to canada.hell u could sell 20000 season tickets in saskatchewan too .just call them the roughridders ... lmao
What about the creditors in Phoenex, like the owners of the arena. They have a contract with the Coyotes. Aren't they entitled to keep the Yotes in Phoenex?


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But the NHL lost that right when the franchise ended up in serious debt. Right now, the court is just to rule that those creditors have every right to be satisfied, it's not their fault Bettman insists on continuing his expansion boondoggle for the sake of principle. If the NHL wants to arrogate itself the right to decide where its franchises are located, they must also assume some responsibility when those franchises fail. The Reisdorf offer falls short of assuming that responsibility. And it's no wonder: Reisdorf isn't stupid enough to get elbow deep into a failing (failed?) venture.
The creditors lent money. They took the risk of losing their money in exchange for the interest. How is it the NHL's responsibility to see that they get paid. Yes the NHL wants to dictate where its franchises are located. What if someone decides to move their team to Europe, does the rest of the league have to agree? There are many league rules that make it more difficult for teams to make a profit. Suppose the Coyotes were to offer Crosby $20 million to play for them. This would violate the standard player contracts and the leagues cap, but it could lead to the Coyotes being profitable. What right does the league have to prevent this.

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Originally Posted by asdf View Post
That's what I don't fully understand. There is the argument that nobody should be able to tell the league who owns a team and where they are located, and that seems reasonable.

But what if a team is in very bad shape (like Phoenix) and the owner wants to try and get out of the mess? How can the league put up a roadblock to prevent him from doing that?
The owner got into this mess. Now the league has to allow him to do whatever he wants to get out of it? Suppose it turns out the Marlies are in debt. Can they insist the NHL allow them to join the league since that would lead to their creditors being paid off? I realize this example is over the top, but the fact is the league is a business with rules that make it a viable business. Just because one of the owners has gotten himself into debt and owes some people money doesn't mean that the league rules should be swept away. The other owners have a right to run their businesses (teams) and to rely on league rules.

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08-06-2009, 09:52 AM
  #31
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It's hypothetical. Lighten up
Don't ask questions that you don't want answers to, then you may not get yourself all upset.

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08-06-2009, 09:54 AM
  #32
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I really hope hamilton gets a team..... Would be a great rivalry with us!

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08-06-2009, 10:00 AM
  #33
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The creditors lent money. They took the risk of losing their money in exchange for the interest. How is it the NHL's responsibility to see that they get paid.
Uhh, that's simply the law relating to bankruptcy. Capital has rights. They lent the money to Moyes, who is operating a franchise of the NHL. The money was lent under contractual conditions to have it be repaid, or get satisfaction some other way - i.e. through a bankruptcy settlement. It is the NHL's franchise, or so they keep telling us, so as the people who grant the franchise, they also have to assume a share of the responsibility for the viability of that business and help satisfy the legal requirements of that franchise in relation to claims against it - like bankruptcy. The NHL also assumed a risk when they granted the franchise to Moyes.

If they want to cut Moyes loose and give him the responsibility for getting the club out of debt, then they have to live with how the court rules he should do that. If they want to make claims based on their franchise ownership, they then become parties to that debt. I'd say that the NHL has assumed that role - de facto - by doling out millions to help prop up the franchise and by claiming that Moyes is not really in control of the franchise. It's not as though they're just a friendly and objective onlooker, the franchise is theirs - again, as they keep telling us.

They simply can't have it both ways, which is what they're trying to do.


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08-06-2009, 10:28 AM
  #34
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That's what I don't fully understand. There is the argument that nobody should be able to tell the league who owns a team and where they are located, and that seems reasonable.

But what if a team is in very bad shape (like Phoenix) and the owner wants to try and get out of the mess? How can the league put up a roadblock to prevent him from doing that?
It is important to understand that the Phoenix Coyotes were not insolvent. The creditors did NOT put them in Chapter 11. Moyes put them in voluntary Chapter 11 in an attempt to end run his ownership agreement (which he signed in good faith less than 5 years ago when he bought the team) so he could bail to Balsillie. He knew under any other scenario he would recieve little or no cash. Moyes personal empire was collasping (in fact already in Chapter 11). The NHL had already stepped in and was running the Yotes since last February. The NHL has the right to take over any franchise that is in finacial difficulty. This clause is there to protect franchises from becoming eventually owned by creditors in the event of default. I believe all 4 major league sports have the same clause.

Moyes is attemting to turn all the equity he put into the Yotes (including his purchase price) into debt and call himself a creditor. Of course he wants to accept Balsillie's bid as any other bidder would not even consider him a creditor.

Is not rather strange that the biggest loser in this mess is the City of Glendale which spent 180 million dollars building a rink for Moyes does not support the highest bidder that only Moyes does?

And is it not ironic that the City of Hamilton is now willing to give Balsillie 140 million for renos to Copps for a long term lease for a team that is breaking a long-term lease to Glendale?

Balsillie's higher bid should reflect the fact that he is getting a virtual free rink to play in whereas the other two bids are dealing with the Glendale lease.

Just because Moyes is financially incented to accept Balsillie's bid does not make it the best bid. IMO Moyes should stand last in line for the waterfall of payments on a ownership change not at the front of the line. He bought the team less than 5 years ago in good faith and signed the standard no-movement of clause of the agreement. (7 year term), the same clause Balissillie refused to sign when he was APPROVED by the NHL BOG to buy the Pittsburgh Penquins.

Any professional sports league that does not control who owns teams, who has the right to move franchises around on any owner's whim is doomed to failure.

I have absolutely no idea why Balsillie does not play by the rules in any business he does. He was the architect of the Blackberry patent fiasco that cost RIM 650 million dollars a few years ago, he was the architect of the failed Nortel bid recently.

His business model of wrapping himself in a Canadian flag and appealing to the court of public appeal and ignoring the legal court system has been a complete disaster.

He will not win this battle even if the judge in Phoenix (who must be enjoying his Andy Warhol moment of fame) rules in his favour.

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08-06-2009, 11:09 AM
  #35
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People in the start of this thread are saying "he can win the auction, but they still won't give him the team (Balsillie).."; uhh...Isn't that INSTANT legal action against the NHL from Balsillie's POV? He won an auction for a team, therefore he should be given rights to the team, and not giving him the team after such auction would likely kill the NHL in one way or another..

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08-06-2009, 11:18 AM
  #36
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I really hope hamilton gets a team..... Would be a great rivalry with us!
true but given that they will be in the west, we'll only see them once or twice a year

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08-06-2009, 11:34 AM
  #37
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Don't ask questions that you don't want answers to, then you may not get yourself all upset.
I don't think you understand what hypothetical means.

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08-06-2009, 11:38 AM
  #38
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for a hockey team...just about anywhere is better then phoenix.

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08-06-2009, 11:43 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
He's not getting a team. The NHL has already rejected him. Regardless of the desire for another team in Canada - and I think it's there among many owners - they're not going to let Balsillie own it. If he gets this through the courts it will wind up being one of worst days in NHL history. A few years down the road expect the phrase "Hindsight is 20/20" to be uttered quite a bit when an owner sandbags a good market b/c he can make more $$ through the courts, or an owner winds up in trouble and can only get out of debt by moving a good team to a random market.
Lets be careful here TC.

What did the BOG actually vote on?

These are very shrewd folks we are dealing with, don't kid yourself.

I read that J. Demeours (sp) stated it was not a up and down vote on JB per say.

It was a vote on do they favor Jerry Riensdorfs bid over Jim Bs.

Frankly, i can see this happening.

It would allow the BOG a about face, face saving out, if there backs are against the wall and the only viable options are JB or float the team for a year and possibly fold.

The NHL has many ways to spin this if they chose JB.

For starters if JB pays relocations fees and territorial fees, the nhl can claim victory when it comes to there rites and powers.

Maybe a lot of this is about forcing the NHL to put a reasonable price point on Hamilton and Tors/Buffs ter claims.

That is if JB is the last man standing.


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08-06-2009, 11:46 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Cappo619 View Post
People in the start of this thread are saying "he can win the auction, but they still won't give him the team (Balsillie).."; uhh...Isn't that INSTANT legal action against the NHL from Balsillie's POV? He won an auction for a team, therefore he should be given rights to the team, and not giving him the team after such auction would likely kill the NHL in one way or another..
I am sure there will be legal action by Balsillie. This may go on in the courts for years before it is settled. Lots of other issues to contend with besides who the judge rules as the best bidder.

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08-06-2009, 11:51 AM
  #41
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Lets be careful here TC.

What did the BOG actually vote on?

These are very shrewd folks we are dealing with, don't kid yourself.

I read that J. Demeours (sp) stated it was not a up and down vote on JB per say.

It was a vote on do they favor Jerry Riensdorfs bid over Jim Bs.

Frankly, i can see this happening.

It would allow the BOG a about face, face saving out, if there backs are against the wall and the only viable options are JB or float the team for a year and possibly fold.
I think you are correct they can always wrangle a way back to Balsillie but he will have to sign the standard 7 year no movement clause as a condition of being an owner won't he? How does balsillie get around that?

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08-06-2009, 01:12 PM
  #42
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Ya, he is. But focus on the market only is what matters. I'm under the impression that this team has not turned a profit one season in the desert. And over the past few seasons have lost at times as much as 40-60 million. The fact they still exist there is astonishing.

If Balsillies bid satisfies the creditors better than any other bid, it's foolish to turn it away. Take personal grudge, or vendetta out of it. The NHL has to swallow some pride here, and do what's best for the league.

The NHL can avoid setting any potential negative precedent by allowing the sale to go through to Balsillie, relocating the team to SW Ontario, and admitting it's mistake in moving to Phoenix in the first place.
Couldnt agree more,

However. Whats the chance Bettman turns around and admits he was wrong? further proving its not about whats best for the league, its merely a personal battle for control?

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08-06-2009, 01:39 PM
  #43
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I think there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what is going on. I think it needs to be simplied. As an Leaf fan, what would a Balsillie bid mean to us?

Well, feel free to add to this list, but off the top of my head, I can see pros and cons.

Pros:
- We spend a lot of money on our team, and much of it goes to support the cup aspirations of the have-nots. Like the Coyotes. A Hamilton team results in less money going to some bible-thumping fan's team down south.
- Our team effectively extorts our fanbase with high prices, and refuses to let competition in. A Hamilton team would allow for an another option. This should, in theory, keep MLSE more honest. No wonder MLSE is willing to fight this to the end.
- We have a potential Canadian owner who loves the sport, and wants to bring a second team to the largest hockey market in the world, thus expanding the Canadian economy further.

Cons:
- A failing team is in danger of picking up and moving to a more viable market. Who cares? We're the largest fanbase in the league by far. That doesn't effect us, or most of the other big markets. And frankly, if a team can't support itself in a city, why does it deserve handouts. This isn't a state, it's a hockey team.

The NHL appears very petty and greedy in all of this. Even if RIM Jim doesn't get his team, at least the league will be exposed for the corporate farce that it is.

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08-06-2009, 02:07 PM
  #44
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I don't think you understand what hypothetical means.
You may be thinking "rhetorical"?

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08-06-2009, 02:44 PM
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Should be interesting:


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08-06-2009, 03:48 PM
  #46
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Here's another hypothetical question.

What if the team actually does move to Hamilton and it ends up losing as much money as Phoenix?

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08-06-2009, 04:05 PM
  #47
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Here's another hypothetical question.

What if the team actually does move to Hamilton and it ends up losing as much money as Phoenix?
Which is highly likely btw. But I am sure Balsille will just pull a Balsillie and ignore the lease ( and leave the taxpayers of Hamilton wanting to join the taxpayers of Glendale forming a lynch mob)and move the team to New York or Chicago whatever the flavour of the month is for a so called hot market.

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08-06-2009, 04:10 PM
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Which is highly likely btw. But I am sure Balsille will just pull a Balsillie and ignore the lease ( and leave the taxpayers of Hamilton wanting to join the taxpayers of Glendale forming a lynch mob)and move the team to New York or Chicago whatever the flavour of the month is for a so called hot market.
Why do you say that it's highly likely? I'd say it's the opposite. Possible, but highly unlikely.

That said, if Southern Ontario proved to be a bomb of a market, it doesn't deserve a team. No one should be propping up teams that can't make it on their own. As a direct investor in the Leafs, I'm not doing so for fair competition. I'm doing so in the hopes that my money will be spent on improving the Toronto Maple Leafs. If half the league dies out, so be it.

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08-06-2009, 04:14 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by goleafsgo93 View Post
Here's another hypothetical question.

What if the team actually does move to Hamilton and it ends up losing as much money as Phoenix?
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
Which is highly likely btw. But I am sure Balsille will just pull a Balsillie and ignore the lease ( and leave the taxpayers of Hamilton wanting to join the taxpayers of Glendale forming a lynch mob)and move the team to New York or Chicago whatever the flavour of the month is for a so called hot market.
This isn't Winnipeg guys. The market is there.

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08-06-2009, 04:17 PM
  #50
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Why do you say that it's highly likely? I'd say it's the opposite. Possible, but highly unlikely.

That said, if Southern Ontario proved to be a bomb of a market, it doesn't deserve a team. No one should be propping up teams that can't make it on their own. As a direct investor in the Leafs, I'm not doing so for fair competition. I'm doing so in the hopes that my money will be spent on improving the Toronto Maple Leafs. If half the league dies out, so be it.


Now there's a solution. Increasing our chances at a cup at all costs.

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