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08-06-2009, 04:28 PM
  #51
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It's a bit of a dick thing to say, I know, but at the end of the day, it's still a game. If someone loses their favourite sports team, it's not the end of the world. How many people actually go see games? I'm a poor student, I can't afford tickets. So I follow on TV and the internet. Why can't Expo fans do the same and follow the Nationals?

I used to spend a lot more on merchandise, but these days I realize that it goes towards helping teams like the Lightning and Hurricanes win the cup. In a sense, I'm basically paying for the Leafs to lose by contributing to economic handouts. As a Leaf fan, we're never going to have revenue sharing work for us, so why propagate the system until it does?

I just don't think that teams that can't run themselves should be bailed out, and if they fold or move, it's better for the league and sport as a whole.

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08-06-2009, 05:15 PM
  #52
Northern Dancer
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
This isn't Winnipeg guys. The market is there.
If the market is there then why does one of Canada's richest man need a 140 million dollar improvement (taxpayers money) to an already tax paid venue to have a chance of making it work?
Why should Balsillie get a free ride if the market is so hot?

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08-06-2009, 05:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
If the market is there then why does one of Canada's richest man need a 140 million dollar improvement (taxpayers money) to an already tax paid venue to have a chance of making it work?
Why should Balsillie get a free ride if the market is so hot?
Why spend your own money when you can use tax payers?

No different then a majority of the other areans built/upgraded in all of the pro leagues.

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08-06-2009, 05:26 PM
  #54
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I'm all for a dispersal draft.

Who's the 7th and 37th best player within that organization?
No NO NO if they use the formula they used after the lock out then we could very well draft 1 and 31.

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08-06-2009, 05:26 PM
  #55
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Wang's NYI "Light house Project" renovation

The Lighthouse Project of Long Island is a $3.7-billion complete rebuilding of the current Nassau Veteran’s Memorial Coliseum located in Uniondale, N.Y. The project is touted to bring jobs, tax revenues, tourist attractions, housing and much more to the Island, but now is facing yet another block in what has already been a long road. The project has faced much criticism from the Town of Hempstead as well as many Long Islanders who feel it will just create traffic, pollution and noise. The project had started to move when the Town of Hempstead approved the first portion and let the project go on to phase two: an environmental review.

Now Charles Wang, the founder of the project as well as the owner of the New York Islanders, is having second thoughts. According to an article by Newsday, Wang is tired of sinking $20 million to keep the NHL Islanders, who call the Nassau Coliseum home, “afloat.” Nassau County Executive Tom Suozzi and Wang had an agreement that Wang would put forth the money to keep the Lighthouse Project going because they both felt it was beneficial to the team as well as the Island. Wang is expecting to be paid back in full, but unsure that he has made the right decision.

According to Nick Giglia, a blogger from Bellmore who has been following the Lighthouse Project since its announcement, says many people from Long Island have a fear of “sixth borough-ism” where people feel the traffic, noise and people will overcrowd the Island, causing a lot of confusion and more of a city-type atmosphere though the project is expected to create jobs, attract young people and still stay on the property that the Coliseum is currently on. The development will be an all-inclusive area, meaning that people will not have to do much traveling outside of the development. Therefore, the traffic, noise and movement of people will not skyrocket, proponents ssayd.

Many people feel that the problems with the Lighthouse project are Charles Wang’s fault, yet according to Newsday, while the economy was booming, they asked Wang to resubmit a development plan. Furthermore Henry Holley, from the Holley Group Inc. who is a consultant for the project, says that it is a matter of “us having to look at it differently, five years ago, we did not hear anything about the economy being the way it is today, we didn’t have to deal with the issues of the banks being in trouble, the insurance being in trouble, the car dealers in trouble, the stimulus money, so we are living in a time that we have to think outside the box.”

Link
Even in an already existing NHL market he will use tax payers money.

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08-06-2009, 05:36 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
If the market is there then why does one of Canada's richest man need a 140 million dollar improvement (taxpayers money) to an already tax paid venue to have a chance of making it work?
Why should Balsillie get a free ride if the market is so hot?
I have to admitt ND, most of your arguments are strong, and I often don't have a good rebuttle. But this one's pretty weak. This is a pretty common practice in pro sports.

Obviously Hamilton sees the advantage of having an NHL team, and the cost of renovating the COPPS would be worth it. I think the city would see that money back, eventually through taxes, and spill over renue into local business'.

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08-06-2009, 07:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Why spend your own money when you can use tax payers?

No different then a majority of the other areans built/upgraded in all of the pro leagues.
Really though...that was a very strange question with a very obvious answer.

If the government was willing to toss me $100,000, I should NOT take it?

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08-06-2009, 08:09 PM
  #58
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Hamilton, the city OWNS Copps...

they would make profits from concessions, parking etc.

obviously the best situation is when the owner OWNS the building, ask MLSE.

so Balsillie is willing to throw a few million in...to get it NHL ready...but it's not HIS arena so why should he fork over 180 million...he'd be better off building his own arena for 250 mill and reap the profits forever...

The City of Hamilton is salivating over Balsillie bringing in this team...it would mean massive economic boost for the local economy, and big prestige. No one else has ever got them an NHL team, nor could anyone...other than this ballsy individual.

if govt won't fork over the $ in the long term (they will though)...then at some point he throws up 'RIM ARENA' on the 401 near Kitchener-Waterloo...and he can then drive 15 minutes to the rink, and enjoy the concessions profits, ancilliary income from other shows there, could put a hotel there etc etc.

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08-07-2009, 04:35 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Azazel View Post
I think there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about what is going on. I think it needs to be simplied. As an Leaf fan, what would a Balsillie bid mean to us?

Well, feel free to add to this list, but off the top of my head, I can see pros and cons.

Pros:
- We spend a lot of money on our team, and much of it goes to support the cup aspirations of the have-nots. Like the Coyotes. A Hamilton team results in less money going to some bible-thumping fan's team down south.
- Our team effectively extorts our fanbase with high prices, and refuses to let competition in. A Hamilton team would allow for an another option. This should, in theory, keep MLSE more honest. No wonder MLSE is willing to fight this to the end.
- We have a potential Canadian owner who loves the sport, and wants to bring a second team to the largest hockey market in the world, thus expanding the Canadian economy further.

Cons:
- A failing team is in danger of picking up and moving to a more viable market. Who cares? We're the largest fanbase in the league by far. That doesn't effect us, or most of the other big markets. And frankly, if a team can't support itself in a city, why does it deserve handouts. This isn't a state, it's a hockey team.

The NHL appears very petty and greedy in all of this. Even if RIM Jim doesn't get his team, at least the league will be exposed for the corporate farce that it is.
Don't be too sure about your first pro. A sucessful team in Hamilton pushes up the cap both floor and ceiling. Pushing up the floor means a bunch of financially weak teams need to spend more money. Some of this money comes from the strong teams like us. I don't know whether we win or lose here.

I'll also add another con. I live near Kingston. I can't see many leaf games because the league has decided I'm in Ottawa's region. Leaf's TV is blacked out here. Leaf games are blacked out on Centre Ice. If you live west of Toronto and a team moves into Hamilton, will you still be able to watch the Leafs?

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08-07-2009, 06:45 AM
  #60
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Really though...that was a very strange question with a very obvious answer.

If the government was willing to toss me $100,000, I should NOT take it?
Where do I sign up?

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08-07-2009, 06:55 AM
  #61
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Where do I sign up?
Down here, unfortunately, it's Atlantic Lottery Corporation.

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08-07-2009, 08:11 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by LTL View Post
Why spend your own money when you can use tax payers?

No different then a majority of the other areans built/upgraded in all of the pro leagues.
Did any Provincial or federal money go towards the ACC or Scotiaplace?

If you have no problem with the government giving Balsillie a virtually new state-of-the art venue for free especially in this economy then I guess there is no use chatting about this. Personally I have a huge problem with it !!!

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08-07-2009, 08:42 AM
  #63
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Don't be too sure about your first pro. A sucessful team in Hamilton pushes up the cap both floor and ceiling. Pushing up the floor means a bunch of financially weak teams need to spend more money. Some of this money comes from the strong teams like us. I don't know whether we win or lose here.

I'll also add another con. I live near Kingston. I can't see many leaf games because the league has decided I'm in Ottawa's region. Leaf's TV is blacked out here. Leaf games are blacked out on Centre Ice. If you live west of Toronto and a team moves into Hamilton, will you still be able to watch the Leafs?
I doubt it. If you have one more team adding to the revenue sharing, and one less getting a handout, that translates to one more viable team fending for itself, and one less getting propped up. I see what you're saying, but I just don't think it works that way.

Furthermore, Hamilton and Toronto are 45 minutes from eachother. Very different than a place like Ottawa, which is 6 hours away. You'd know better than me, but is there a blackout of Canadiens games in Senator territory as well? I'm guessing no, but I could be wrong. That said, Hamilton and Toronto would essentially share the Southern Ontario market. There would be more support for Toronto east, and eventually more support for Hamilton west. As a Leaf fan, that doesn't concern me. There's no reason that the Leafs shouldn't earn for their fanbase. Why do they deserve to exploit us unchecked? I wouldn't mind the monopoly so much if the team was still in the hands of a competent owner, but that really hasn't happened since Smythe left. Let's not kid ourselves here. We're being taken advantage of. The average person can't afford tickets, and merchandise is expensive. Worst of all, the quality of the on-ice product is questionable about 50% of the time. As an investor in the team - and that's what we, as fans, are - this is unacceptable.

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08-07-2009, 08:51 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
Did any Provincial or federal money go towards the ACC or Scotiaplace?

If you have no problem with the government giving Balsillie a virtually new state-of-the art venue for free especially in this economy then I guess there is no use chatting about this. Personally I have a huge problem with it !!!
What would the stipulations be with the arena? Would it be like Balsillie owns it or would it be the city? Who would get revenues from it for things like concerts?

Apparently Balsillie wants a team in Hamilton and only Hamilton because his wife is heavily invovled with the revitalization of the city, with the Hamilton Coyotes (and the renovated arena) being the centerpiece of that. If that's the case it's sort of understandable that he would ask for money. At the very least you can't blame him for trying.

I agree though, if he has to pay for the arena out of his own pocket, I don't know how he would make that much money from the team.

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08-07-2009, 09:06 AM
  #65
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I have to admitt ND, most of your arguments are strong, and I often don't have a good rebuttle. But this one's pretty weak. This is a pretty common practice in pro sports.

Obviously Hamilton sees the advantage of having an NHL team, and the cost of renovating the COPPS would be worth it. I think the city would see that money back, eventually through taxes, and spill over renue into local business'.
The premise that somehow because a city has a major league team with a spanking new stadium funded by taxpayers stimulates the economy is wrong. No new money or spending is being created, all the monies spent on building the facility then buying tickets would have spent anyway on other things. People don't keep money under their mattress just waiting to spend it watching major league sports. An example would be should I decide to go to watch the Leafs I would buy tickets however if I change my mind and decide not to watch the Leafs I would then spend that money on something else (movies, dinner etc). I would not take my money hide it under the mattress. The loss of the Montreal Expos, the loss of the Quebec Nordique, the loss of the Winnipeg Jets did not affect the economies of those cities one bit. The fans of those departed teams did not take their ticket money and throw it into an RRSP, they spent it on other things.

The reason it is commonplace (stadium subsidies from municpalities) is simply it is a very easy way to get voters onside and an easy way to get re-elected. Just look at everyone jumping on Balsillie's bandwagon and putting Mayor Eisenberger on a pedastal. The fact other juristictions do it does not make it right. I would have to think the fine taxpayers of Glendale Arizona are a tad peeved about their 180 million dollar investment in a rink right about now.

I have two questions for you, how many more people will Copps employ with an NHL team versus their current AHL team? And since the city the owns Copps, how do they get their money back through taxes since they will be paying taxes to themselves?

There is lots of studies that prove a professional sports teams is not an efficient use of government money: (in fact accomplishes nothing)

http://iurd.berkeley.edu/catalog/Wor...ic_Development

http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/04/1117stadiums.html

http://economics.about.com/cs/baseba.../aa021403b.htm

http://www.brookings.edu/articles/19...axes_noll.aspx

http://dcfpi.org/?p=89


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08-07-2009, 09:36 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Azazel View Post
I doubt it. If you have one more team adding to the revenue sharing, and one less getting a handout, that translates to one more viable team fending for itself, and one less getting propped up. I see what you're saying, but I just don't think it works that way.

Furthermore, Hamilton and Toronto are 45 minutes from eachother. Very different than a place like Ottawa, which is 6 hours away. You'd know better than me, but is there a blackout of Canadiens games in Senator territory as well? I'm guessing no, but I could be wrong. That said, Hamilton and Toronto would essentially share the Southern Ontario market. There would be more support for Toronto east, and eventually more support for Hamilton west. As a Leaf fan, that doesn't concern me. There's no reason that the Leafs shouldn't earn for their fanbase. Why do they deserve to exploit us unchecked? I wouldn't mind the monopoly so much if the team was still in the hands of a competent owner, but that really hasn't happened since Smythe left. Let's not kid ourselves here. We're being taken advantage of. The average person can't afford tickets, and merchandise is expensive. Worst of all, the quality of the on-ice product is questionable about 50% of the time. As an investor in the team - and that's what we, as fans, are - this is unacceptable.
Yes Hab games are blacked out on Centre Ice too. Its up to the teams involved to reach an agreement. The Habs have offered (so Hab games would be available in Ottawa's region and Ottawa games in Montreal and area) but the Sens refused. Until the Sens agree many Leaf and Hab games are blacked out here.

Yes Hamilton is much closer but this doesn't mean there will be no problem. This is one of the things teams negotiate when they move. Part of Balsillie's plan would allow him to prevent the league from forcing Leaf games to be available in Hamilton's area. Who knows how this will play out in the courts but it is not a given that Leaf games will be available west of Toronto. I expect they will be but I also expect Balsillie will insist on a hefty payment from the Leafs for allowing this. Normally the Leafs would insist on their fans continuing to see games on tv (and a big cash payment) as a condition for allowing a new team in our area. But if Balsillie moves the Coyotes to Hamilton via the courts the Leafs may not have the usual leverage. Balsillie hasn't exactly shown much respect for league rules and traditions.

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08-07-2009, 09:38 AM
  #67
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I have two questions for you, how many more people will Copps employ with an NHL team versus their current AHL team? And since the city the owns Copps, how do they get their money back through taxes since they will be paying taxes to themselves?

There is lots of studies that prove a professional sports teams is not an efficient use of government money: (in fact accomplishes nothing)
You can say the exact same thing about all kinds of industries (heck there's a pretty convincing case that a WalMart in your town is negative for economy, yet governments always dole out money to industry). Should we hold it against Balsillie if he seeks what most everyone else gets?

Why does government hand out billions for the development of more fuel efficient vehicles when the exact same vehicle I drive in North America is available in Europe with better fuel efficiency (I won't even get into how today's supposed fuel efficient vehicles still can't top the Honda Civic of I think it was 1994)?

I can think of lots of things that make me shake my head in terms of spending government dollars.

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08-07-2009, 09:48 AM
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You can say the exact same thing about all kinds of industries (heck there's a pretty convincing case that a WalMart in your town is negative for economy, yet governments always dole out money to industry). Should we hold it against Balsillie if he seeks what most everyone else gets?

Why does government hand out billions for the development of more fuel efficient vehicles when the exact same vehicle I drive in North America is available in Europe with better fuel efficiency (I won't even get into how today's supposed fuel efficient vehicles still can't top the Honda Civic of I think it was 1994)?

I can think of lots of things that make me shake my head in terms of spending government dollars.
I agree with you 100% !!!!

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08-07-2009, 11:00 AM
  #69
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Yes Hab games are blacked out on Centre Ice too. Its up to the teams involved to reach an agreement. The Habs have offered (so Hab games would be available in Ottawa's region and Ottawa games in Montreal and area) but the Sens refused. Until the Sens agree many Leaf and Hab games are blacked out here.

Yes Hamilton is much closer but this doesn't mean there will be no problem. This is one of the things teams negotiate when they move. Part of Balsillie's plan would allow him to prevent the league from forcing Leaf games to be available in Hamilton's area. Who knows how this will play out in the courts but it is not a given that Leaf games will be available west of Toronto. I expect they will be but I also expect Balsillie will insist on a hefty payment from the Leafs for allowing this. Normally the Leafs would insist on their fans continuing to see games on tv (and a big cash payment) as a condition for allowing a new team in our area. But if Balsillie moves the Coyotes to Hamilton via the courts the Leafs may not have the usual leverage. Balsillie hasn't exactly shown much respect for league rules and traditions.
I don't really think logical to make the assumption that we wouldn't get Leaf games west of Toronto. Especially given the number of fans the team has in the market. Blocking Leaf games in Kingston is one thing. Blocking Leaf games in Hamilton or Burlington is another. I can't see that flying. I think this is fearmongering more than anything else, and unlikely to really change the status quo. It's very doubtful that Southern Ontario will cease broadcasting Leaf games.

Remember, they're competing in the same market.

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08-07-2009, 11:13 AM
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If you have no problem with the government giving Balsillie a virtually new state-of-the art venue for free especially in this economy then I guess there is no use chatting about this. Personally I have a huge problem with it !!!
what are you talking about?? the city owns Copps...Balsillie won't.

The levels of govt will decide if they will fund the bigger expediture (180mil), and if they didn't, Jim would just build his own arena near Kitchener. Ask Florida how much money they make from their building and complex...they certainly don't make money from ticket sales...but that's why the Panthers will never leave...the owners make a ton on parking, concessions, and other events from the site area...which they keep as a separate company so they can say the team loses money, thus they get handouts from the league...but with the other hand, they are making lots.

If you have a problem with public funding of arenas, talk to your MP or MPP if it gets that far and oppose it....but they are likely to give him that money...if not, he builds his own arena, closer to his house...and in the long run, he'll make lots of money...and he can use corporate money (RIM) to help finance it.

but if he was playing in Copps, and the govt said no to the long term uprgrade of Copps...he wouldn't spend his money on an arena in Hamilton; it will be close to Kitchener-Waterloo.

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08-07-2009, 11:19 AM
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Regardless of Bettman's personal feelings, he can't fight off Balsillie forever. The guy has more money than God and he's tenacious like a pitbull.

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08-07-2009, 12:43 PM
  #72
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what are you talking about?? the city owns Copps...Balsillie won't.

The levels of govt will decide if they will fund the bigger expediture (180mil), and if they didn't, Jim would just build his own arena near Kitchener. Ask Florida how much money they make from their building and complex...they certainly don't make money from ticket sales...but that's why the Panthers will never leave...the owners make a ton on parking, concessions, and other events from the site area...which they keep as a separate company so they can say the team loses money, thus they get handouts from the league...but with the other hand, they are making lots.
If you have a problem with public funding of arenas, talk to your MP or MPP if it gets that far and oppose it....but they are likely to give him that money...if not, he builds his own arena, closer to his house...and in the long run, he'll make lots of money...and he can use corporate money (RIM) to help finance it.
but if he was playing in Copps, and the govt said no to the long term uprgrade of Copps...he wouldn't spend his money on an arena in Hamilton; it will be close to Kitchener-Waterloo.
Where did I ever say that Balsillie would own Copps, I said he was getting the use of a venue for virtually nothing.

And are you suggesting that Balsillie will walk from Copps and his 32 year lease if the governments don't fund his play-pen?

And are you suggesting that RIM a publically traded company is going to enter the scene? I'm really laughing at that one !!!!!! (RIM is 1/2 the price it was 1 year ago and that little adventure would slam the stock into oblivion)

And my all-time favourite, parking. How big a parking lot do you need to to make money ? Show me the math !!!!

And re your statement about holding the arena in a seperate company so the hockey team loses money ensuring hand-outs, really shows you do not understand either basic accounting, law or how revenue sharing under the CBA is calculated.

If you think anyone can make money by paying 212 million U.S., then pay a re-location fee then build a 250 million dollar arena then welcome to the world of Arthur Anderson and Enron !!!! Once again show me the math on how he is going to make lots of money.


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08-07-2009, 02:09 PM
  #73
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Bettman was a poor choice of commisioner, I want Jim to own, but I doubt Jim can bring them to Hamiliton

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08-07-2009, 05:32 PM
  #74
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I don't really think logical to make the assumption that we wouldn't get Leaf games west of Toronto. Especially given the number of fans the team has in the market. Blocking Leaf games in Kingston is one thing. Blocking Leaf games in Hamilton or Burlington is another. I can't see that flying. I think this is fearmongering more than anything else, and unlikely to really change the status quo. It's very doubtful that Southern Ontario will cease broadcasting Leaf games.

Remember, they're competing in the same market.
Assuming a team in Hamilton won't affect who gets to watch the Leafs is just sticking your head in the sand. Who says they are "competing" in the same market. This is just what some fans want. Maybe Balsillie feels the best way for him to grow his market is to prevent people from watching the Leafs and force them to watch his team. This is the Senators position.

Many assume that it would be crazy to prevent Leaf fans from watching the Leafs. I agree but as I pointed out this is already happening. Your attitude seems to be that what happens in Kingston isn't really important or going to have any bearing on what happens in say, Kitchener. This is just navel gazing. Why should Kitchener be any different than Kingston? Why would you assume that the Leaf games will shown in London? I assure you that even though we are forced to watch them, there are very few Senator fans in Kingston.

Here's another question. Even if Balsillie agrees to let the Leafs broadcast in his area, the CBC will have some decisions to make. Every Saturday night they will have to make choices. Some people west of Toronto will be Hamilton fans and they will want the CBC to show Hamilton games. There was a lot of whining around this board when the CBC arranged a few weeks with no Saturday night Leaf game. How will people feel when the CBC doesn't show the Leafs every Saturday (or even every other week).

Finally, I do think if the courts give Balsillie a team in Hamilton, then most likely people who are west of Toronto will still have access to most Leaf games. But I think they will have to pay for that privilege. Having two teams competing for fans' dollars means those teams will be thinking of ways to generate more revenue.

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08-07-2009, 08:33 PM
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Northern Dancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
Assuming a team in Hamilton won't affect who gets to watch the Leafs is just sticking your head in the sand. Who says they are "competing" in the same market. This is just what some fans want. Maybe Balsillie feels the best way for him to grow his market is to prevent people from watching the Leafs and force them to watch his team. This is the Senators position.

Many assume that it would be crazy to prevent Leaf fans from watching the Leafs. I agree but as I pointed out this is already happening. Your attitude seems to be that what happens in Kingston isn't really important or going to have any bearing on what happens in say, Kitchener. This is just navel gazing. Why should Kitchener be any different than Kingston? Why would you assume that the Leaf games will shown in London? I assure you that even though we are forced to watch them, there are very few Senator fans in Kingston.

Here's another question. Even if Balsillie agrees to let the Leafs broadcast in his area, the CBC will have some decisions to make. Every Saturday night they will have to make choices. Some people west of Toronto will be Hamilton fans and they will want the CBC to show Hamilton games. There was a lot of whining around this board when the CBC arranged a few weeks with no Saturday night Leaf game. How will people feel when the CBC doesn't show the Leafs every Saturday (or even every other week).

Finally, I do think if the courts give Balsillie a team in Hamilton, then most likely people who are west of Toronto will still have access to most Leaf games. But I think they will have to pay for that privilege. Having two teams competing for fans' dollars means those teams will be thinking of ways to generate more revenue.
And what if the Leafs say screw you HNIC and CBC. They pull out when the next contract runs out and put all 82 games on LeafsTV?

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