HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-07-2009, 10:39 AM
  #1
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pac NW
Country:
Posts: 29,387
vCash: 500
Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More

Continue here. Per qualche dollaro in più.....like a real bowl of spaghetti.

Link to Part XI thread:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669551

You folks who just posted news links, add them here too please. Thanks.

Fugu is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 10:42 AM
  #2
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500


http://www.570news.com/news/local/mo...07_062019_6008
Outspoken Balsillie lawyer Richard Rodier says Copps Coliseum will be ready this fall to host an NHL hockey game. He told 570's Prime Time Sports he's more confident than ever the team will be Balsillie's and accepts there will be a relocation fee.
He said 'in terms of discussion let's say it's 500 million dollars and Jim says okay where's my chequebook ". Rodier says it doesn't matter what the NHL does with the money they just want to know the figure.

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 10:46 AM
  #3
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Balsillie apparently wants to grill Bettman and Daly in advance of the franchise going to auction
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...service=mobile





Last edited by Artyukhin*: 08-07-2009 at 11:02 AM.
Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:09 AM
  #4
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,494
vCash: 500
The statute of limitations is nominally 7 years. Since the "Hamilton Predators" ticket incident occurred in 2007, and it's only about two years since, perhaps the NHL (NHL Enterprises) and/or Nashville might want to take Balsillie to court on those trademark infringement?

(Kinda surprised there never seemed to be any legal proceedings on that. Not pursuing reflects poorly on maintaining the integrity of the trademark.)

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:09 AM
  #5
Mr Wentworth
Arch Duke of Raleigh
 
Mr Wentworth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 4,912
vCash: 500
Better for Glendale if the Coyotes move?

I went back a few pages on the Part XI thread, and didn't see this.
Yes, I could've missed it...

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/8/7/...-may-be-better

It may be in Glendale's best finacial intrests not to want them back with all the stuff Reinsdorf is after. Glendale might be giving up quite a bit to Reinsdorf, but, what would they be getting back?

According to this post/guy, not enough.

Mr Wentworth is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:15 AM
  #6
Hammertown
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 196
vCash: 500
By allowing Balsillie to take part/bid in the Sept. 10th auction the court has guaranteed that there will be a relocation fee set in the next 30 days or so for the Hamilton/Southern Ontario opportunity, if in fact the auction doesn't get delayed again. There has to be, in order for any bidders to know what it will cost them. The NHL will argue of course that 30 days isn't enough time for due diligence and Baum may very well move the whole auction again to allow them more time to set relocation prices for any relocation bidders.
Baum's also guaranteed he'll now have to rule on any COG damages before then too. Any relocation bidder has to know the damages they'll be paying, if they want to move the team. I would imagine that the COG can't argue a huge break free now when they were going to let Reinsdorf walk for free and give him subsidies/taxes (whatever you want to call it) along the way.
Baum will apply the fairness of that, gee let JR walk for free but you want 500 million from JB, that's not going to happen. Most likely they'd be unsecured and gets pennies on the dollar anyways.
Just like the NHL coming back with an exorbitant number for Southern Ontario isn't going to fly with Baum either. He already stated the number had to be FAIR.

I can see a KC bidder or a Winnipeg bidder or Bruckheimer in Vegas coming out of the woodwork but 35 days isn't enough time, they'd need the auction delayed again.
Also will a group from KC/Winnipeg/Vegas be willing to bid more than 212.5 in cold hard CASH, and pay a relocation fee (lower than Southern Ontario obviously) and pay the COG damages (depending on if Baum puts them at the top of the unsecured creditor pile), whatever they may be. Some groups may not be able to afford that or be willing to pay that much for a market outside Southern Ontario.

As for other Southern Ontario bidders, there's a little glitch there. Balsillie has exclusive rights to Copps till October and there's no other suitable venue available in the GTA. So where does one play? Building an arena would take years to plan/build and there's no taxpayer money to spend hundreds of millions on a brand new arena, it's cheaper to reno Copps!

Add the fact that SOF wants their money, in CASH and it adds additional burden to existing/new bidders to have at least 80 million dollars in CASH in their bid. The NHL will want CASH for the relocation fee as well.

Hammertown is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:25 AM
  #7
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Balsillie's ace in the hole: Richard Rodier?

A good article by Stephen Brunt, which puts things in an interesting perspective:


Quote:
It isn’t tough to find someone to malign Richard Rodier, chief counsel to Jim Balsillie in his quest to secure an NHL franchise for Hamilton.

He has been described as a “rogue” lawyer, has been blamed in some circles for Balsillie’s failure to make friends among the NHL’s governors, has rubbed people the wrong way, has been accused of leading the billionaire down a quixotic path that can’t possibly end in success.

Some of that is pure NHL propaganda – both sides have been playing the information and disinformation game to the limits – but some of it also comes from those sympathetic to Balsillie’s cause, who are convinced he is the victim of bad advice.

But as this story enters a new and intriguing chapter, with Balsillie’s bid now part of the September auction for the remains of the Phoenix Coyotes, best keep one thing in mind.

Bankruptcy law is Rodier’s world. When it became clear that there was no direct route to NHL ownership for Balsillie – or at least NHL ownership in Hamilton – the entire strategy shifted to finding a club teetering on the brink, to find an owner who had lost faith, who needed to get out and get out fast.

Enter Jerry Moyes, who believed – rightly it turns out, given the revelations about the city of Glendale’s backroom dealings with Jerry Reinsdorf – that the NHL would be more than happy to sacrifice him, to throw him under the bus to preserve the illusion of a successful sunbelt strategy.
Link:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1244048/

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:26 AM
  #8
Hammertown
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 196
vCash: 500
Re: Bidwell.

I saw a link posted earlier about Bidwell's objections.
I totally understand now that it's not as much about him wanting a cut of the pie (I'm sure he does if ultimately it's implemented) BUT the 11.5 percent affects his bottom line.
That 11.5 percent will be charged on everything from Cardinals tickets, merchandise, concessions, parking etc. which could affect his attendance/bottom line at Cardinals games when people balk at paying the extra 11.5 percent for Cardinals games, since it's in the proposed Westgate entertainment district that would be charging the extra 11.5 percent to float Reinsdorf/the Coyotes.

Hammertown is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:31 AM
  #9
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,494
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammertown View Post
Baum's also guaranteed he'll now have to rule on any COG damages before then too. Any relocation bidder has to know the damages they'll be paying, if they want to move the team. I would imagine that the COG can't argue a huge break free now when they were going to let Reinsdorf walk for free and give him subsidies/taxes (whatever you want to call it) along the way.
Any damages COG imposes for breaking the lease would be lumped in with the unsecured creditors, not a separate payment.



As I see it....

*There's the purchase price of the franchise (relocatable or not). These funds will pay off the NHL's debt in possession, all secured creditors, and the balance split amongst the unsecured creditors (including any COG damage claim for relocation bids).
*There's a NHL relocation fee (which I assume will be different depending on the market). This goes to the NHL (29 member teams)
*Indemnification fees for territorial infringement. These fees go directly to the affected team(s).

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:33 AM
  #10
Didi Senft
Registered User
 
Didi Senft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Col du Galibier
Posts: 16
vCash: 500
What if no bankruptcy...

Sorry if this has been asked...

Since the objective of the court at this point seems to be what is in the best interests of the creditors, and the NHL had said bankruptcy wasn't necessary, if the bankruptcy filing never took place and the original Reinsdorf offer was accepted, what would have happened to the creditors then?

Would they be entitled to be paid in full?
Would the seller be responsible to pay all debts with the proceeds of the sale?
Would these be inherited by the buyer? Or Negotiated?
What priority would these be paid (NHL, Dell, etc.)?

My thought here is that Moyes/Balsillie paint themselves as making the best deal for the creditors (which at this point in the bankruptcy proceedings is true, minus perhaps Glendale) but where would the creditors stand if the filing never happened?

Didi Senft is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:49 AM
  #11
Hammertown
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 196
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Any damages COG imposes for breaking the lease would be lumped in with the unsecured creditors, not a separate payment.



As I see it....

*There's the purchase price of the franchise (relocatable or not). These funds will pay off the NHL's debt in possession, all secured creditors, and the balance split amongst the unsecured creditors (including any COG damage claim for relocation bids).
*There's a NHL relocation fee (which I assume will be different depending on the market). This goes to the NHL (29 member teams)
*Indemnification fees for territorial infringement. These fees go directly to the affected team(s).

Right I agree with you, absolutely they'd be unsecured and have to line up with everyone else!
So if COG and Moyes are lumped into the unsecured creditor pool and get cents on the dollar why is everyone so concerned about COG and their damage award so much?
Even if Baum awards them something crazy like 200-300 million there's ZERO chance they recoup anything close to that from ANY bidder, as an unsecured creditor.
And isn't Reinsdorf essentially trying to weasel out of paying damages by making it look like he's staying, even for just 5 years, and he's the saviour, when in fact he'll walk in 5 years with NO penalty/damages to Glendale!
Will Baum not see through Reinsdorf's little end around and apply the COG damages to him as well, IN THE EVENT he does walk in 5 years?

One thing I'm curious about, can Baum put COG at the top of the unsecured creditor list? Ahead of Moyes and the others? Is there legal precedence for this? Or do they all get equal shares of what's left?

Hammertown is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:52 AM
  #12
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Howad Bloom: Balsillie frontrunner for ownership of Coyotes

Quote:
Howard Bloom of Sportsbusinessnews.com says that with the ruling, Balsillie has to be considered the frontrunner for ownership of the franchise.

"I really think that when all is said and done, Jim Balsillie has moved from the outside to the inside," Bloom told CTV News Channel Wednesday evening. "He probably has to be considered almost the favourite."

Bloom says he expects other bids for the franchise to fall apart in the next month.

"The NHL's nightmare scenario is likely to unfold," he said.


If Balsillie does manage to win the team, the NHL could have a few tricks up its sleeve to keep him out, Bloom said.

He said the NHL could charge an exorbitant relocation fee of over $100 million or attempt to find another bidder who would move the team elsewhere.
Link:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...TorontoNewHome

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 11:55 AM
  #13
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
Balsillie apparently wants to grill Bettman and Daly in advance of the franchise going to auction
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/sports/...service=mobile

I'd buy a ticket to watch the grilling.

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:01 PM
  #14
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didi Senft View Post
Sorry if this has been asked...

Since the objective of the court at this point seems to be what is in the best interests of the creditors, and the NHL had said bankruptcy wasn't necessary, if the bankruptcy filing never took place and the original Reinsdorf offer was accepted, what would have happened to the creditors then?

Would they be entitled to be paid in full?
Would the seller be responsible to pay all debts with the proceeds of the sale?
Would these be inherited by the buyer? Or Negotiated?
What priority would these be paid (NHL, Dell, etc.)?

My thought here is that Moyes/Balsillie paint themselves as making the best deal for the creditors (which at this point in the bankruptcy proceedings is true, minus perhaps Glendale) but where would the creditors stand if the filing never happened?
Everyone other than Moyes would likely have been taken care of due to Reinsdorf assuming the team's contracts and liabilities. Reinsdorf did want at least one of the contracts renegotiated as a condition of the purchase and perhaps others. The only one we know for sure in the pre-bankruptcy offer was the CoG lease, but he probably wanted to also negotiate new terms with SOF and maybe others.

mouser is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:27 PM
  #15
mouser
Global Moderator
Business of Hockey
 
mouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Mountain
Posts: 11,439
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTofMAROONSroad View Post
The result: no, a Hamilton franchise is not reasonably worth or going to cost Balsillie as much as some here seem to suggest. Anything above $300mm inclusive of everything would probably be an over-payment. A second franchise operating in downtown Toronto with the exact same TV territory as the Leafs would be an entirely different story.
Food for thought: a team in Hamilton could move to downtown Toronto without needing league approval as that would be within their Home Territory.

mouser is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:32 PM
  #16
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,494
vCash: 500
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ck.retirement/

SI's Kelley talks about the dichotomy of the recent rulings. (About halfway through the article, after the discussion on Roenicks' retirement.)

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:36 PM
  #17
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,494
vCash: 500
http://coyotes.nhl.tv/team/console.j...d=rss-whatsnew

Coyotes video on development of youth hockey in the region.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:37 PM
  #18
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
 
MAROONSRoad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Maroons Rd.
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,069
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Food for thought: a team in Hamilton could move to downtown Toronto without needing league approval as that would be within their Home Territory.
Not necessarily, but these types of issues were actually my point. The parties can negotiate the territory for a new Hamilton franchise in terms of where the team can be located and the extent of the TV rights area. The more expansive the area, the larger the indemnity and relocation fees due to the TMLs and NHL -- but this could all be subject to negotiation between Balsillie and the NHL under the transparency of judicial supervision.

GHOST

MAROONSRoad is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:41 PM
  #19
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,494
vCash: 500
http://www.thestar.com/article/677542

Toronto Star on the complexity of bidding for franchise.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 12:42 PM
  #20
bbud
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didi Senft View Post
Sorry if this has been asked...

Since the objective of the court at this point seems to be what is in the best interests of the creditors, and the NHL had said bankruptcy wasn't necessary, if the bankruptcy filing never took place and the original Reinsdorf offer was accepted, what would have happened to the creditors then?

Would they be entitled to be paid in full?
Would the seller be responsible to pay all debts with the proceeds of the sale?
Would these be inherited by the buyer? Or Negotiated?
What priority would these be paid (NHL, Dell, etc.)?

My thought here is that Moyes/Balsillie paint themselves as making the best deal for the creditors (which at this point in the bankruptcy proceedings is true, minus perhaps Glendale) but where would the creditors stand if the filing never happened?
The Moyes bankruptcy took place as the NHL was on its way to Pho apparently with an offer from JR to buy the team that day according to GB .
I can only guess he had an idea of teh offer which likely was similar to the one which paid him nothing and decided to take his chances at that time, I can see why he would think that and protect any chance at some money back.
Nothing about how others being paid i would have to guess same plan as JR had going foreward at bankruptcy though.


Last edited by bbud: 08-07-2009 at 12:52 PM.
bbud is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 01:02 PM
  #21
RR
Moderator
 
RR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cave Creek, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Food for thought: a team in Hamilton could move to downtown Toronto without needing league approval as that would be within their Home Territory.
Just had to add another layer, didn't you?

I've also wondered how iron-clad Hamilton can make the Copps lease to prevent Balsillie from, at some point, finding a better deal in the home territory either to build his own arena, or a private group builds it and offers him a better deal?

If we've learned anything from this fiasco it is there seems to always be a way to break a lease.

RR is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 01:05 PM
  #22
bbud
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazidoom View Post
What you fail to understand is that a team with enough fans won't have problems selling out during a period of mediocrity because there are always diehards who'll pay to watch them no matter what. Even if 90% of Toronto's fanbase decided they'd stop supporting the team the Maple Leafs would still sell out. I can't remember the average attendance for the Coyotes last season off the top of my head, it was perhaps around 12,000 or so? I do remember the average TV audience, it was 7000. Give or take a couple thousand, let's say the total fanbase of the Coyotes is a round 20,000 for the sake of simplicity. If the number 20,000 is roughly accurate, it means the Coyotes are in trouble if less than 80% of their fanbase goes to the games. There's no margin of safety. However, paradoxically, this can be seen as an encouraging sign. Assuming there are indeed around 20,000 fans it means at least 60% of the Coyotes fanbase is comprised of "diehards" and more than half of the total fanbase attends the games after years of failure. In the notoriously fickle state of Arizona, that's quite a feat.

Shall we once again look to the examples of the Diamondbacks and the Cardinals? The Diamondbacks won a World Series in their third year of existence, the fastest of any expansion team. Hundreds of thousands celebrated during their victory parade. Five years later they were playing in a half empty stadium. For the majority of their existence the Cardinals were looked upon by the residents of Phoenix with lukewarm apathy at best. How did they manage to start attracting massive crowds? People didn't wake up one day with a greater appreciation of the sublime joys of football. It's pretty simple, one team started losing, the other started winning. I can guarantee you the Coyotes would fill the seats every night if they made strong showings in the playoffs for a couple years.

It's easy for you to declare that Coyotes fans aren't doing a good enough job to support their team but in fact, I'd argue the fans in Arizona are doing MORE to support their team than most Canadians. If one or two thousand people in Toronto or Montreal stop buying tickets their teams won't even feel it. Other fans would simply replace them. But Coyotes fans can't afford to do that. They know there isn't anyone to take their place. And I know this will be controversial but I'd also argue that fans of the Coyotes are doing just as much as the fans of the Jets did. People like to compare the Save the Jets Rally of 35000 to the Save the Coyotes Rally of 500 and yet the Jets had an average attendance hovering around 11,000 in their final season. For a team that supposedly had a much larger fanbase I find it strange the numbers are so similar. I see a lot of "Hockey can't work in the desert" and "Hockey can't work in the South" posts but I sure as hell don't see anybody saying "Hockey can't work in Winnipeg" or "Hockey can't work in Canada".

Give the team a chance. The dedicated fans are doing everything they can, they just need some help from casual fans who don't like supporting losers. And for that the Coyotes need to win.
a couple of things to reply here, if having fans is totally dependant on winning you are in trouble each and every day any great team is one injury away from a bad stretch save maybe 1 or 2 but thats not a great plan .
Winning can help but fans should know its not always guranteed .
As for Winnipeg ive seen a bunch of posters say move them back i am Canadian and say no it is a great hockey city but i am not sure the city could live with financial needs of new NHL as of now , some will argue it could i am not against them either just not unless it is a slam they can succeed.

bbud is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 01:08 PM
  #23
bbud
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
Just had to add another layer, didn't you?

I've also wondered how iron-clad Hamilton can make the Copps lease to prevent Balsillie from, at some point, finding a better deal in the home territory either to build his own arena, or a private group builds it and offers him a better deal?

If we've learned anything from this fiasco it is there seems to always be a way to break a lease.
Actually if any move were to happen JB has land for a new rink and its not in Toronto he did say he would build one if needed but would prefer to see the team in Hamilton at Copps .

bbud is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 01:24 PM
  #24
RR
Moderator
 
RR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cave Creek, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,048
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbud View Post
Actually if any move were to happen JB has land for a new rink and its not in Toronto he did say he would build one if needed but would prefer to see the team in Hamilton at Copps .
Could be wrong, but I thought that land was bought by RIM?

Still, my question stands. If a 20-32 year lease is signed, how does Hamilton protect itself from JB and his lawyers finding a way of breaking it for a better deal somewhere else?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbud View Post
Actually if any move were to happen JB has land for a new rink and its not in Toronto he did say he would build one if needed but would prefer to see the team in Hamilton at Copps .
And BTW, bbud: are you EVER NOT online?

RR is offline  
Old
08-07-2009, 01:40 PM
  #25
HockeyAnalysis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 212
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
Still, my question stands. If a 20-32 year lease is signed, how does Hamilton protect itself from JB and his lawyers finding a way of breaking it for a better deal somewhere else?
They do it the same way that the Phoenix Coyotes did it. Put clauses in the contract that make it next to impossible, or extremely expensive, to get out of the lease outside of declaring bankruptcy, which can only be done if the team is failing miserably, in which case Balsillie is probably far worse off than the City of Hamilton would be (see Moyes and how much money he has lost).

Also, Balsillie doesn't want to own a team anywhere else (if he did, he'd have a team right now). He wants to own a team in Hamilton.

HockeyAnalysis is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.