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Heatley to the Flames

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Old
08-07-2009, 08:34 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew1234 View Post
So let me get this straight. you would rather have a inconsistant player/who may or may not make it for a proven 40+ goal scorer?

This is why HFBoards is crazy for overrating prospects. When you can get a young proven winger for an inconsistant blue chip prospects you run all over it!.. get rid of chances to take proven assets.

Its like your in a casino, you would rather go to the roulette table and take that money and bet on red then take a guaranteed investment of doubling your money. And actually Backlund will NEVER be as good as Heatley.

Guaranteed vs Non-Guaranteed.
Some Flames fans are delusional but you have to understand Backlund is the only real top tiered prospect on the Flames. It will be hard for them to part with him.

Heatley is top notch talent but he has a high salary and a mental problem. Taking him creates problem with the cap and as somebody say, Murray already set standard for the return (Coliagno and bad contracts). So now everybody is looking to rob the Sens.

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Old
08-07-2009, 10:40 AM
  #52
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Calgary is not going to upset thier salary structure by bringing Heatley on board. As long as Iggy is a Flame he's going to probably be a top paid player.

A possible franchise defenseman has more value then a disgruntled one dimensional mental case with an allergy to hard work and back checking.

I wouldn't have any interest in Heatley.

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Old
08-07-2009, 10:50 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesOwnYou View Post
I would do Langkow, Giordano, Neimsz. .
Id do that. Then it gives a spot for Pelech in the top 6 (who IMO is NHL ready right now)

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Old
08-07-2009, 10:50 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbguy
Phaneuf

or

Langkow + Bourque + Backlund
horrible

Are some fans living in some alternate reality where the max value Heatley gets isn't Cogliano, Penner and Smid? The above listed trade from the flames is miles better than the one from the Oilers. Miles.

Memo to Sens fans and other delusionals, Heatley's value is Cogliano, Penner and Smid. So lets pare down down the trade proposals to that litmus.

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Old
08-07-2009, 11:02 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Some Flames fans are delusional but you have to understand Backlund is the only real top tiered prospect on the Flames. It will be hard for them to part with him.

Heatley is top notch talent but he has a high salary and a mental problem. Taking him creates problem with the cap and as somebody say, Murray already set standard for the return (Coliagno and bad contracts). So now everybody is looking to rob the Sens.
I agree, but theres already soo many questions surrounding is ability to play night in and night out that it just boggles my mind that calgary fans would considering trading him if thats what it takes to acquire Heatley. Now if they dont want heatley because of his issues etc then thats a different story. From a stand point of hockey and impact its a no brainer.

Cogs and Penner etc are all 2nd liners. so they are soo easy to replace through free agency or even drafting. Superstars are harder to get. If you can acquire one you go for it.

You are also right in the sense of the cap issues. They would be heavy loaded up front but its up to Kipper IMO to rebound. Hes played poorly imo the past 2 years and maybe thats the defense. Maybe bouwmeester will help it. Not sure. But calgary's problem was not enough goal scoring. They added cammaleri who was awesome for you and solved it but added a new issue of keeping the puck out of their own net. Interesting to see how they do this season.

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Old
08-07-2009, 11:32 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SoCalSharkzFan View Post
Most overrated player in HFboards history.

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Old
08-07-2009, 02:41 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Why not Kipper? If the Flames get a decent younger cheaper goalie back, they should trade him
Ahhh, Kipper is the best. He's getting underated a lot because of his stats lately but for me he is still Top-5. Flames defense didn't make him look good. Don't trade him ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldrick View Post
Probably because Bryan Murray has set the value at not a whole heck of a lot for him. Cogliano and throw-ins isn't a whole heckuva lot
You probably missed a month of this saga but that deal was before :

- Melnyk gave Heatley 4 freaking MILLIONS $$$. Murray had pressure from his boss to make a deal
- It was before free agency, teams had some options

Murray said after July 1st that the price went up for Heatley.

And Cogliano, Smid and Penner is not really garbage, it's 3 good young players. Colgian and Smid have an interesting upside and Penner could use a change of scenery. This guy is not done, he's just overpaid for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Definitely a tough situation, I like Heatley as he's a great talent, I even have beers with a member of his family but sorry, the cat is out of the bag and Ottawa fans should really come to the realization your not getting back what he's worth.
Wel already know... If we didn't, we wouldn't ask for two second-liners and a prospect... We would ask for a player of Heatley's caliber...

Quote:
Not only couldn't the Flames not give up Langkow + Bourque + Backlund due to cap reasons.
This trade fits the cap according to capgeek numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Heatley is top notch talent but he has a high salary and a mental problem. Taking him creates problem with the cap and as somebody say, Murray already set standard for the return (Coliagno and bad contracts). So now everybody is looking to rob the Sens.
What mental problem? What do we know? Are we inside his head? Does everyone around critize the choices you make in your own life? Why can't Heatley make his own choices? Sucks for Sens fans, but i have to respect his decision (i just didn't like the public demand, don't even know if it is HIS fault)

And how could Smid be a bad contract? He is RFA...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan View Post
The above listed trade from the flames is miles better than the one from the Oilers. Miles.

Memo to Sens fans and other delusionals, Heatley's value is Cogliano, Penner and Smid. So lets pare down down the trade proposals to that litmus.


Another... Gosh, are you guys have no idea how the business world works?

MURRAY STATED THAT THE PRICE WENT UP AFTER THE 1ST JULY. If he can't get a better deal, he won't trade Heatley, he also stated that.

Not saying it will be 2 times better, but maybe 15%, i dunno.

And no, that trade is not MILES better than the Oilers deal. Langkow is 33 y/o and scores slightly more than Penner, about the same cap hit. Cogliano has more upside than Bourque and Backlund is more unproven than Smid.

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Old
08-07-2009, 02:58 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
And no, that trade is not MILES better than the Oilers deal. Langkow is 33 y/o and scores slightly more than Penner, about the same cap hit. Cogliano has more upside than Bourque and Backlund is more unproven than Smid.
I'm going to leave the rest of your post alone cause I agree with all of it. This last sentence drives me nuts though. Smid is more proven yet you ignore potential in this deal but Bourque is more proven and you bring up Cogliano's upside. Something doesn't work here man. You can't talk about experience being more important than upside and then negate it in the same sentence by saying Smid is more proven and yet don't say anything about Backlund's potential. I guess this is HF boards for ya though.

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Old
08-07-2009, 04:47 PM
  #59
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If Heatley demanded a trade from the Senator's because his coach wanted him to be accountable on both sides of the puck, hows he going to get along with Brent Sutter.

The answer is in the phonecall

Ring

Murray - "Hey Darryl, I wanted to talk to you about getting Danny Heatle . . . "

Sutter hangs up the phone.

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Old
08-07-2009, 04:51 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by FlamesOwnYou View Post
I'm going to leave the rest of your post alone cause I agree with all of it. This last sentence drives me nuts though. Smid is more proven yet you ignore potential in this deal but Bourque is more proven and you bring up Cogliano's upside. Something doesn't work here man. You can't talk about experience being more important than upside and then negate it in the same sentence by saying Smid is more proven and yet don't say anything about Backlund's potential. I guess this is HF boards for ya though.
Sorry, maybe not enough development in my argumentation. Prolly didn't use the right words too (sorry my english is not perfect) Let me clarify :

Cogliano

164 GP
36 goals
47 assists
83 points
Average production/82 games : 18 goals, 24 assists, 42 points

Bourque

241 GP
54 goals
61 assists
115 points
Average production/82 games : 18 goals, 21 assits, 39 points

Cogliano has 2 seasons under his belt while Bourque has 4 seasons with a lot of games missed. I'd take Colgiano over Bourque based on potential, but not a huge difference. But Cogliano is proven enough (if we compare with Bourque)

Ladislav Smid was a 9th overall pick (high for an european too) in 2004. He is 6'3 and 226 lbs, and has an intriguing potential. Sure he didn't reached it yet, but he is only 23 and it's the norm for young D-men.

His scouting report :

"Displays plenty of intelligence and poise--with and without the puck. Has the size scouts like in an NHL defender. Displays all-around potential"

So, yes, i'd value Backlund more based on offensive potential, but Smid is not a crappy piece, and has strong chances to become a solid all-around Top-4 D-man. Smid is already in the NHL, which up his value a bit (compared to Backlund)

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid < Backlund

I could have used multiple > or < but i feel those pieces are somewhat close in value. So the deal is not MILES better than the Edmonton deal. It is slightly better (maybe 15%), what Murray should look for. If he can't get that, keep Heatley and wait until his value rise again.


Last edited by Xspyrit: 08-07-2009 at 04:57 PM.
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Old
08-07-2009, 05:07 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Most people like yourself thinks he sucks, so how is he overrated? Unless your opinion doesnt count


PS: Phaneuf was severely injured last year...watch for him to bounce back this year.


Well he must have been really injured to be able to play 80 games .

I expect him to really bounce back........as in BACKWARDS in the points department

He's garbage

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Old
08-07-2009, 05:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew1234 View Post
I agree, but theres already soo many questions surrounding is ability to play night in and night out that it just boggles my mind that calgary fans would considering trading him if thats what it takes to acquire Heatley.
What boggles my mind is that Sens fans think this trade will occur in some kind of unreality where cap considerations and Heatley's sketchy past won't come into play.

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Old
08-07-2009, 05:31 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt McGirt View Post
[/B]

Well he must have been really injured to be able to play 80 games .

I expect him to really bounce back........as in BACKWARDS in the points department

He's garbage
1) Some players play through injuries...watch some more hockey if that is a new concept to you.

If you do not know about Phaneuf's injuries, do some research.

2) You are wearing a dunce cap...enough said

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Old
08-07-2009, 05:42 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Sorry, maybe not enough development in my argumentation. Prolly didn't use the right words too (sorry my english is not perfect) Let me clarify :

Cogliano

164 GP
36 goals
47 assists
83 points
Average production/82 games : 18 goals, 24 assists, 42 points

Bourque

241 GP
54 goals
61 assists
115 points
Average production/82 games : 18 goals, 21 assits, 39 points

Cogliano has 2 seasons under his belt while Bourque has 4 seasons with a lot of games missed. I'd take Colgiano over Bourque based on potential, but not a huge difference. But Cogliano is proven enough (if we compare with Bourque)

Ladislav Smid was a 9th overall pick (high for an european too) in 2004. He is 6'3 and 226 lbs, and has an intriguing potential. Sure he didn't reached it yet, but he is only 23 and it's the norm for young D-men.

His scouting report :

"Displays plenty of intelligence and poise--with and without the puck. Has the size scouts like in an NHL defender. Displays all-around potential"

So, yes, i'd value Backlund more based on offensive potential, but Smid is not a crappy piece, and has strong chances to become a solid all-around Top-4 D-man. Smid is already in the NHL, which up his value a bit (compared to Backlund)

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid < Backlund

I could have used multiple > or < but i feel those pieces are somewhat close in value. So the deal is not MILES better than the Edmonton deal. It is slightly better (maybe 15%), what Murray should look for. If he can't get that, keep Heatley and wait until his value rise again.
Fair enough thanks for the information. I agree with all the evaluations. Thanks for the clarification.

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Old
08-07-2009, 05:50 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
What mental problem? What do we know? Are we inside his head? Does everyone around critize the choices you make in your own life? Why can't Heatley make his own choices? Sucks for Sens fans, but i have to respect his decision (i just didn't like the public demand, don't even know if it is HIS fault)

And how could Smid be a bad contract? He is RFA...


.
By saying bad contracts, I mean the Sens will have to pick up some contracts to equal Heatley's. And nobody is going to give equal value for him.

Everyone can make their own choices, but Heatley seems to keep making bad choices. (do I really need to spell out what they were?) That's why he is mental.

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Old
08-07-2009, 07:46 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
So, yes, i'd value Backlund more based on offensive potential, but Smid is not a crappy piece, and has strong chances to become a solid all-around Top-4 D-man. Smid is already in the NHL, which up his value a bit (compared to Backlund)

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid < Backlund

I could have used multiple > or < but i feel those pieces are somewhat close in value. So the deal is not MILES better than the Edmonton deal. It is slightly better (maybe 15%), what Murray should look for. If he can't get that, keep Heatley and wait until his value rise again.
Why even put Backlund in? The oilers weren't giving up a bluechip prospect and niether would Sutter.

Should be:

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid = Gio or Pardy

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Old
08-07-2009, 09:14 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
By saying bad contracts, I mean the Sens will have to pick up some contracts to equal Heatley's. And nobody is going to give equal value for him.
Ok, and?

Quote:
Everyone can make their own choices, but Heatley seems to keep making bad choices. (do I really need to spell out what they were?) That's why he is mental.
Well, moving out of Atlanta after his best friend died while he was driving was a bad choice? You would have stayed there?

And who knows if it is the bad choice to want out of Ottawa? Maybe he thinks the team can't win for a while and he don't just get along with Clouston?

Not saying i'm happy about it, but there's must be a reasonning behind it. People don't make that kind of decision for no reasons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Why even put Backlund in? The oilers weren't giving up a bluechip prospect and niether would Sutter.

Should be:

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid = Gio or Pardy
Fair point, and yes before 1st July, i would have have called this deal (langkow, Cogliano, Giordano) equal to the Edmonton deal... BUT, as i have stated before, the price went up for various reasons, so you'd have to upgrade this deal a bit (not 100% but let's say 15-20%)

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Old
08-08-2009, 12:01 PM
  #68
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Heatly > Phaneuf

but because of the edm deal that was supposed to happen, his value around here has dropped. well that the whole fiasco of demanding a trade then not waiving hit ntc.

would Calgary want Heatly no. Is Heatly better then Phaneuf yea

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Old
08-08-2009, 03:44 PM
  #69
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No playoff teams want Heatley right now.

His cap hit is way to big and is going to create a massive shakeup on any team he goes to. With last year's less than stellar season and all the other rumours circulating, it's not a smart move.

The only team that will take him is a team that expects to lose anyway. That way when they take on the albatross of a contract, worse case scenario they miss the playoffs anyway. Best case Heatley turns around and they make the playoffs.

The majority of teams in the above scenario lack a core of superstars, so they have the cap space to keep Heatley when the cap drops.

In other words don't look to teams like Calgary to trade. The shakeup is not worth the gamble.

Look to Florida, Colorado, NYI, etc.

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Old
08-08-2009, 04:25 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy-4-50 View Post
Why even put Backlund in? The oilers weren't giving up a bluechip prospect and niether would Sutter.

Should be:

Penner < Langkow
Cogliano > Bourque
Smid = Gio or Pardy
As the trade would have happened before July 1st it could be looked at as

Cogliano, Penner, Smid and Havlat for Heatley because it would allow the Sens to spend that 1 or 2 million more over Kovalev to get Havlat or maybe even Hossa. But rumours had it that Havlat was interested in returning.

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Old
08-08-2009, 04:40 PM
  #71
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no player on the Flames will be paid more than Iginla, so unless Ottawa buys him out there's no way he's coming to Calgary. it's the same reason that he won't find a spot in Detroit with that albatross contract

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