IIHF World ChampionshipDiscuss International Tournaments like the WJC, Olympics, and World Cup, as they take place, or discuss past tournaments. performances.
You'll get about every Russian poster thinking it's his God given duty to vote for Malkin and Dats with most Canadian fans thinking only an idiot would think it's not close and couldn't be bothered to vote.
I mean, Canadian fans are smart enough to know it's close.
I should be able to say the same thing about you, but it doesn't seem like i can.
With statements you make like like ……And if (Canada) do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not……you’re making the same bold assertions you claim to be offended by. You, therefore, have no justification calling anybody out on this topic.
Russia in trouble if Canada plays up to potential? In trouble???? Have you lost your sanity? You think Russia has no chance?
I mean the nerve of some of you Canadians. The arrogance!!!! I’m insulted!!!!!
ESPO: the question wasn't "who's gonna win?" but "who's gonna have the better team?" That can be answered in two ways.
Talent-wise, Russia is clearly better upfront. Top snipers, top scorers, and all current award winners are Russian. Their stars are all in their prime, they are battle-tested, they are all winners at the NHL/KHL/IIHF level. Canadian forwards are certainly talented, but nobody on their team is on the level of Russia's Big 4 (Dats, Ovie, Kovie, and Malx). Canada is slightly better in their own end, but not by the same margin. Their big D are mostly past their prime. So is Brodeur, and Luongo has never accomplished anything at any serious level. At least Nabokov is now a World Champion.
The real question is: how will all these players gel into one team. Russian team has a history of coming apart and never really playing like a team (Nagano98 was the closest they've ever been to a TEAM), but in the past couple of years they have done just that. Canada usually beat their opponents with sheer talent. I don't remember many instances when their SYSTEM prevailed, except, maybe WHC05. For the first time in recent memory, Russian players will play one system, a system they are familiar with (everybody except Datsyuk, Kovalev -- if, and Zubov -- if, has played the Bykov's system before), and a system that has been proven to produce results.
So, all in all, I say Russia will be a better team. Who will win? We'll see.
This thread has become so funny (some of it has been part of the Canadian roster talk too).
Has it gotten on Espos national pride so much that Russia can now arguably take Canada down on paper and is annoyed by it and fires some insults towards the guys saying it. Really It's always felt like some Canadian fans have been doing the same, when having discussions and speculations about rosters. Canada has usually been the clear number one and downtalking everyone else and felt like they are not giving any respect for the others. It's felt the same way, being arrogant and stuff while it's certainly been the case, they have been the favourites. But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything but it sure is fun to talk and speculate about it, if there are some valid arguments, not insults or at least having the tone set to stuff like that. I mostly feel the Russians have been solid and trying to give arguments and opinions while Espo is answering them with fanatism.
My take on the Malkin & Datsyuk vs Crosby & Getlzaf stuff is that Malkin is the Conn Smythe winner and the Russians might be better defensively. Offensive production should be pretty much on the same level and who knows how the injury/operation might affect Getlzaf getting going in to the season. So the pick would be Malkin & Datsyuk, not by a large margin, but I would feel safer with them.
Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.
Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.
These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.
whos the retard? I'd say it's the guy who talks like he knows everything before it happens.
anyone on the ball is going to pick up on that and if they don't they are just another stupid hack like you, who have nothing better in their arsenal then to whip out dated English phrases like "retards'
Even when you are trying to be a hard ass you are come across as a slouching neandrathal.
Your facts are full of ****, let's see how good you are next year, that's the only thing that matters anyway right?
i wonder how cocky and prideful you are when Russia loses.
but i already know how you will deal with that event. I just can't wait for everbody to witness it.
You're going to look exactly like you call me in your last post.
All Hail Russia, they've already won according to sentinel.
but what happens when they don't?
we'll all see how ugly that goes down here, we're already getting the dirty clues.
Are you another one who thinks it's time to give out medals before the games are played?
him and others here, and it's right in the thread, think Canada can't even play team hockey, you don't think a fan shouldn't take exception to that?.
I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.
you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Depch
This thread has become so funny (some of it has been part of the Canadian roster talk too).
Has it gotten on Espos national pride so much that Russia can now arguably take Canada down on paper and is annoyed by it and fires some insults towards the guys saying it. Really It's always felt like some Canadian fans have been doing the same, when having discussions and speculations about rosters. Canada has usually been the clear number one and downtalking everyone else and felt like they are not giving any respect for the others. It's felt the same way, being arrogant and stuff while it's certainly been the case, they have been the favourites. But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything but it sure is fun to talk and speculate about it, if there are some valid arguments, not insults or at least having the tone set to stuff like that. I mostly feel the Russians have been solid and trying to give arguments and opinions while Espo is answering them with fanatism.
My take on the Malkin & Datsyuk vs Crosby & Getlzaf stuff is that Malkin is the Conn Smythe winner and the Russians might be better defensively. Offensive production should be pretty much on the same level and who knows how the injury/operation might affect Getlzaf getting going in to the season. So the pick would be Malkin & Datsyuk, not by a large margin, but I would feel safer with them.
Take it easy Espo, Canada will still have the best team on paper, as they always have. However in such a short tournament this doesn't mean much, all of the top 5 or 6 teams will have about an equal shot at winning the gold.
Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT. Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.
These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.
This particular argument holds zero merit, seeing as how Malkin didn't have to deal with the likes of Zetterberg and Lidstrom in the finals on a regular basis. Crosby drew all of Detroit's top line attention. To say that Crosby was "eaten up" by Zetterberg isn't a valid point, because Malkin could have just as easily been the one to be shut down had Babcock decided to match the lines differently.
i already know they have an equal shot of winning it, I've said as much havent I?,
my problem is with ******** that don't think we do, sounds like a bunch of disrespecful ******* to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk
Take it easy Espo, Canada will still have the best team on paper, as they always have. However in such a short tournament this doesn't mean much, all of the top 5 or 6 teams will have about an equal shot at winning the gold.
Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.
Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.
These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.
#1 - That doesn't mean very much IMO. This past year they were nominated, next year they might not be. It's not unrealistic to expect Crosby might win it this year considering the precedent. Players stats fluxuate and I don't believe anyone really thinks Ovechkin is substantially better than Crosby or Datsyuk is substantially better than Getzlaf.
Getzlaf isn't far off, he scored 91 points as a 23 year old, and considering the unrelenting upward trend he's been on since he entered the league, I wouldn't hesitate to bet on him outdoing Datsyuk this year. We also have other players who are arguably better than Getzlaf.
#2 - I think the poster above captured it nicely, Malkin didn't have to deal with the same tight checking Crosby did. Obviously there's a reason Babcock stuck his best checkers on Crosby, up until those final games Crosby had outperformed Malkin in every way.
#3 - See answer one. It's not like there's a trend of the Russian players being better than the Canadian ones in the NHL. This past year the Russians had the upper hand, other years the Canadians have been better.
#4 - Good point, but considering the brutally pathetic team we sent to this past WC, that tournament should not even be considered valid.
The tournaments that reflect the skill of the players our two nations are sending to the Olympics are the ones that have taken place in the last eight years. In those years Canadian players have won:
Olympics - 1 Gold
World Championships - 3 Gold, 3 Silver
World Junior Championships - 5 Gold, 3 Silver
Canada's players (the ones who took part in these tournaments are for the most part the same ones who will be taking part in the Olympics) have outperformed the Russians both in quantity and quality of medals at every level in the past eight years. It looks like a trend to me.
In terms of NHL trophies as well...
Number of Hart trophy winners potentially on Canada - 3
Number of Hart trophy winners potentially on Russia - 1
I'll throw the defensive responsibility and leadership arguments out the window and give it to you that Ovechkin is slightly better than any of our three, but one man can't make a team, and I'll take our quantity over your quality.
I left Federov's Hart out because I think we'd all agree he cannot compete at that level anymore.
The same goes for Conn Smythe trophies. Canadian players have taken it three to one over the past six years, but I'll disregard Brad Richards because he probably won't be with the Olympic team. We have more of them on our team than the Russians do, unless you think the play of either Cam Ward or Scott Niedermayer has fallen off enough that their achievement should be disregarded with regards to the Olympics.
Feel free to disagree with any or all of this if you think there's something wrong with it.
I'm not going to waste my time on Espo anymore, he is the biggest hypocrite and a demagogue I have ever seen on a hockey board. When he is given FACTS (and nothing but facts) he babbles some demagoguery about refs and how he will gloat when (not even "if," but "when") Canada wins.
KMan777: we can only go by what is available right now: candidates' stats, past performances, and overall trends. OBVIOUSLY everything I've said only pertains to the 08-09 season. It's possible that Getzlaf will outperform Datsyuk in the next season. But for now we only have their previous history to go by.
My argument has been that Russia is better than Canada ON PAPER in offense (wings and center). It's based on FACTS (award nominees, achievements, etc.) and speculations (performances at WHC, etc.). Nowhere did I indicate that Russia should have the Gold handed to them before the tournament begins.
What happened to Russia's silver in Nagano?
And, wouldn't you agree, that the last 4 years matter more than the last 8? Also, leave juniors out of it: it's a whole different game.
As for the Hart winners: I'll go with the teamful of present nominees, rather than past winners. I can't believe you've said that Fedorov can't perform at the Olympic level (did you see that guy in Quebec?) but Pronger and Thornton can. Both have been nothing but liability at the international level. Even St. Louis is not exactly a dominant force (certainly not at the past two WHC finals).
Finally, you call the last WHC team pathetic, what would you call the Russian roster? Decimated by injuries to the point that they could only ice 11 forwards in the final, with Kovalchuk being double-shifted! Of those that played: Radulov injured, Morozov injured, Frolov barely off his flu, and so on, and so forth. Kovalchuk said in an interview that that victory came harder than the one in Quebec (on enemy territory), because of injuries.
My argument has been that Russia is better than Canada ON PAPER in offense (wings and center). It's based on FACTS (award nominees, achievements, etc.) and speculations (performances at WHC, etc.). Nowhere did I indicate that Russia should have the Gold handed to them before the tournament begins.
There was a thread earlier this year which addressed the offensive rankings of each country. Russia's forwards are very good, but still number 2. It is based on NHL statistics, and although some may argue there are players in Europe that might make a difference, the margins are great enough that the ranking orders wouldn't change.
There was a thread earlier this year which addressed the offensive rankings of each country. Russia's forwards are very good, but still number 2. It is based on NHL statistics, and although some may argue there are players in Europe that might make a difference, the margins are great enough that the ranking orders wouldn't change.
I never said they have no chance, where do you read that?
I said they are in trouble if Canada plays up to it's potential, just like Canada is in Trouble if Russia does.And if both do you are talking about one hell of a close game, not a blowout by either side.
that's what some people here don't seem to see, why i don't know.
I don't who the hypocrite is here but it isn't me.
So i can call anyone of you guys out and have not a shred of guilt about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine
Quit being a hypocrite.
With statements you make like like ……And if (Canada) do that with the talent they have, you guys are in trouble, don't think you're not……you’re making the same bold assertions you claim to be offended by. You, therefore, have no justification calling anybody out on this topic.
Russia in trouble if Canada plays up to potential? In trouble???? Have you lost your sanity? You think Russia has no chance?
I mean the nerve of some of you Canadians. The arrogance!!!! I’m insulted!!!!!
Here is the offensive ranking of the following countries based on total NHL points for their top 9 forwards and top 5 defencemen.
Forwards:
1 CAN (783)
2 RUS (748)
3 SWE (624)
4 USA (594)
5 CZE (563)
6 FIN (439)
7 SVK (318)
Defence:
1 CAN (295)
2 USA (227)
3 SWE (208)
4 CZE (200)
5 RUS (173)
6 FIN (141)
7 SVK (130)
same story again here after Ovy,Kovy,Malkin,Datsyuk,Semin,Frolov and maybe Kovalev next best russian player coming from KHL .so we need to add here Radulov and Marozov. but as i sayed before. thats old story and i am done here.
You seem to put so much stock in the past 2 world championships so i'll humour you with some "facts" regarding Russia and Canadas talent among forwards with some numbers from the tournament in 2008. You should at the very least get these numbers if nothing else.
The top 3 point getters in that tournament were all Canadians, hell, even Mike Green on defense equalled Ovechkins numbers.
A d-man matched the vaunted Russian forwards point totals,forwards you claim as "fact" being better then Canada's.
and those guys aren't even likely to be our top line next february.
It blows me away to think you have the gall to say Russias forwards are better then Canadas as facts.
I'm glad you're not a medical practioner of any sort, you would have a lot of people having their leg removed when all they came in for was too see why they are itching so much.
Now, just who is the retard around here?
pfft, facts my ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel
One more time, you retard:
Russian centers Malkin and Dats are both Hart nominees, and Crosby and Getzlaf aren't -- IT'S A FACT.
Crosby was eaten up by Zett, and Malkin wasn't -- IT'S A FACT.
Ovechkin is a reigning Hart Winner, and Malkin is a reigning Conn Smythe Winner -- IT'S A FACT.
Russia beat Canada every time they've met in the past few years and finished higher than Canada in 2 out of 3 Olympics -- IT'S A FACT.
These are not "opinions" or "emotions" or "considerations" or whatever else. They are FACTS. Not "my facts." Facts, period.
The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.
Well, if you want to go this way then the top 9 Russian players were scoring 1.082 points per game while Canadians 1.075.
ppg is not as good a measure. Unfortunately every team will have players that miss the OG due to injury. A good ppg player that is regularily hurt is not going to help if he can't play due to injury. Also ppg stats favour those who sit out during injuries instead of playing through them.
Another good example is Crosby and Ovechkin in this years playoffs. Crosby had better ppg stats at the end of the Washington series, but by the end of the playoffs Ovy had a better ppg average.
same story again here after Ovy,Kovy,Malkin,Datsyuk,Semin,Frolov and maybe Kovalev next best russian player coming from KHL .so we need to add here Radulov and Marozov. but as i sayed before. thats old story and i am done here.
Even with those guys it still wouldn't give Russia enough to move into number one. Also, considering Dallman, a borderline NA minor league defenceman outscored Radulov by 9 points, I think it is a stretch to say that either of them would have scored more than Slava Kozlov or Zherdev last season.
The list of FACTS that I've submitted had very little to do with WHCs. Btw it certainly doesn't matter how many goals you score on Norway and Latvia, if at the end you lose. I'm sure Green would have given up all of his goals, had he had the gold around his neck at the end. But all of this is beside my point. You still haven't found an argument against the FACT that top Russian centers were nominated for Hart and top Canadian ones weren't.
The WC's are meaningless and based on league statistics Canada is #1.
Are you another one who thinks it's time to give out medals before the games are played?
him and others here, and it's right in the thread, think Canada can't even play team hockey, you don't think a fan shouldn't take exception to that?.
I wouldn't even waste your time with us anyway if i were a Finn fan, i 'd just be worried about finally winning something other then a second and third place badge.
you guys have all the practice in the world at that. You should leave us alone and concentrate on your problems, they are definately considerable.
No, As I said in the end it all comes down how teams execute the play and overall effort -> "But as everyone knows it's a game of hockey so even the roster doesn't guarantee everything", also that getting so hotheaded (the tone you're writing with and answering with mockery is pretty poor overall, if it's not about that then it's just pure trolling).
Why should I be worried? Haha. Hockey is not everything in life, but it's the best damn sport there is and I enjoy it a lot. I'm not bringing up Finland to this conversation we have and we will always have weaker rosters on the paper. If we do beat up teams with better rosters well, good for us. Besides in the bigger tournaments there are no more time for practise for us than for any other country since most players come from NHL. And if we do have any problems, it's that we are too few as a nation compared to the great Canada & Russia. Not many top end players (actually you might even argue that there are none now, since Selänne is past his prime), but the management, execution, work effort has been great compared to that (Going on your level I could go mocking on Canada with this management & execution stuff (sure Salt lake was an exception), but I don't think it's necessary. We can have good talks even without them. Get the point?-)).
after Ovy,Kovy,Malkin,Datsyuk,Semin,Frolov and maybe Kovalev next best russian player coming from KHL .so we need to add here Radulov and Marozov. but as i sayed before. thats old story and i am done here.
