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Old
08-09-2009, 01:21 PM
  #51
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It's not Iginla's fault he's not Giroux.

I predict ten straight Lester B. Pearson's, zero Hart tophies because Crosby needs some love, zero Rock Richard's because Giroux quits scoring halfway through the season to give Ovechkin a shot, and ten Conn Smythe trophies because he's just that damn good.

He only wins one Cup along the way, but that's because Giroux wants other players around the league to feel the same happiness he did when he won it his second year, a year that saw the sophomore slump hamper his production to a meager 210 points during the regular season, and 51 points during the post-season (20 of which are goals.)

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08-09-2009, 02:56 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Dear god, we have seen half a season of giroux and a 6 game playoff series. Now we are comparing him to the forsberg who has 2 stanley cup rings and is one of the greatest playoffs performers of all time. Not to mention probably one of the most talented players of all time.

Jesus how teams rate their young prospects is beyond farsical
Yeah, I love the guy, but this is getting out of hand.

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08-09-2009, 03:37 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Dear god, we have seen half a season of giroux and a 6 game playoff series. Now we are comparing him to the forsberg who has 2 stanley cup rings and is one of the greatest playoffs performers of all time. Not to mention probably one of the most talented players of all time.

Jesus how teams rate their young prospects is beyond farsical
I suppose it doesn't hurt a team's fan to get all fired up and thrilled with a prospect... until the sudden realization that the bar was set too high... But, in the end, all the lofty praise is replaced by reality and enjoyment or disappointment, depending.

I think all this Foppa comparisons arose with a couple of pond hockey moves that Giroux decided to attempt in the Bigs -- pretty much his words -- I have to admit that at least one of them was Forsbergesque, and the best I've seen by an O&B player since Foppa was shipped out... But to compare Giroux's move to Forsberg, let alone to compare his perception of the ice is greatly premature, and IMO a pie in the sky hope. If Giroux can end his career half the player Foppa was, I'd be more than thrilled... Hell, I'd be satisfied with him being a quarter of the great player Forsberg was when healthy.

While I believe that he will be a real good player in the NHL for a long time... health and luck being with him... I am not at the point where I can say that he will play at the level he played at the end of last season, once he starts playing against teams who will assign their better players against him, and once teams get a feel what to expect from his game... In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a sophomore slump with the added expectations placed upon him, and the added pressure that goes with it... I'd expect to know the real Giroux by the time his next contract is negotiated.

... All that said, I expect to enjoy watching his growth, and hope that it is in an O&B uniform for seasons to come.

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08-09-2009, 03:38 PM
  #54
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Yeah, I love the guy, but this is getting out of hand.
Yeah... One would think that he was Jon Sim or Steve Eminger or something.

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08-09-2009, 04:50 PM
  #55
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I love Giroux as much as anyone- I have his auto and am getting his jersey.

But to compare him to Foppa is unfair. Forseberg is one of teh best of all time. He had balance and vbision that were unmatched.

The plays that Giroux made that drew compasrisons to Forseberg were plays Forseberg made routinely. Giroux has a ways to go before he gets to that point.

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08-09-2009, 08:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Dear god, we have seen half a season of giroux and a 6 game playoff series. Now we are comparing him to the forsberg who has 2 stanley cup rings and is one of the greatest playoffs performers of all time. Not to mention probably one of the most talented players of all time.

Jesus how teams rate their young prospects is beyond farsical
While I don't agree with the the previous poster's sensational claim about Giroux being a more offensively-gifted Forsberg (is there even such a thing?), the comparison really isn't that far off. Both players possess generational play-making ability, jaw-dropping hockey sense/IQ, and raise their game to another level in the playoffs. Forsberg was more physically dominant because of his size, but Giroux is one tough customer and never shies away from contact or scrums along the boards. In fact, it seems like he relishes the opportunity to get his nose dirty. I just hope that Giroux's style of play coupled with his body type doesn't lead to injury problems, a la Forsberg, because he has the talent to one day be among the top 5 or 10 point producers in the game.

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08-09-2009, 09:38 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
I don't think so. He might never be the defensive player that Peter is, but offensively, he's just as capable. He's probably got better vision than Peter and now that he's acclimated with the style of game in the NHL, there's no reason why he won't be a multiple 100+ point scorer in the league. Like I said, he has more pure and natural talent than any other forward on the team and always plays with the under dog mentality. I'll go one step further and say that I won't surprise me if we see Giroux up with Crosby and Malkin as league scoring leaders. He's that good.
Giroux will be so good, you wont be able to say Crosby, and Malkin in the same Sentence as Giroux. I'd say Giroux is a lock for 140 pts next season. That is setting the bar low.

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08-09-2009, 10:05 PM
  #58
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08-09-2009, 10:57 PM
  #59
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Did I say 140? Make it 160!

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08-10-2009, 12:01 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
While I don't agree with the the previous poster's sensational claim about Giroux being a more offensively-gifted Forsberg (is there even such a thing?), the comparison really isn't that far off. Both players possess generational play-making ability, jaw-dropping hockey sense/IQ, and raise their game to another level in the playoffs. Forsberg was more physically dominant because of his size, but Giroux is one tough customer and never shies away from contact or scrums along the boards. In fact, it seems like he relishes the opportunity to get his nose dirty. I just hope that Giroux's style of play coupled with his body type doesn't lead to injury problems, a la Forsberg, because he has the talent to one day be among the top 5 or 10 point producers in the game.
You can really tell that bolded portion from half of a season and six playoff games? I have to admit that I didn't see much of Foppa that first half season he played in Quebec City, and remember nothing of it other than what I read... I saw a few glimpses of Giroux's moves that might be considered reminiscent of Forsberg, but far too few to consider him an heir apparent... or say that he has generational skills or is a lock to excel in anything, at this point. If he shows such on a consistent basis over the next couple to few seasons, I'd feel more comfortable saying that he can be mentioned seriously in the same breath as Forsberg -- I will however admit that I did my self post on another forum that a couple of his moves reminded me of the many moves Forsberg displayed while healthy and wearing Orange & Black.

I know that statistics by them selves mean nothing... and especially so when they are separated by over a decade, and a whole set of revised rules and competition... but, for curiosity, I looked up the first seasons of Forsberg and Giroux -- ignoring Giroux's two game call up from Juniors in 2007-08 -- The playoffs were strikingly similar, with Forsberg getting the odd extra assist... but the regular season greatly favored Foppa in all categories, even the special teams play that I didn't copy here. As I said, they prove nothing, but are interesting; Giroux's is the stats of a promising player, while Forsberg's are stats of a better than PPG player who would only get better.

Forsberg.................Gm.....G.....A.....pts... .+/-
1994-1995 Nordiques.47.....15....35.....50....17........ Regular Season
1994-1995 Nordiques..6.......2.....4.......6.....2......... Post Season

Giroux
2008-2009 Flyers......42.......9....18.....27....10........ Regular Season
2008-2009 Flyers........6.......2.....3.......5......2...... .. Post Season


Last edited by Sawdalite: 08-10-2009 at 11:23 AM.
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08-10-2009, 01:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
You can really tell that bolded portion from half of a season and six playoff games? I have to admit that I didn't see much of Foppa that first half season he played in Quebec City, and remember nothing of it other than what I read... I saw a few glimpses of Giroux's moves that might be considered reminiscent of Forsberg, but far too few to consider him an heir apparent... or say that he has generational skills or is a lock to excel in anything, at this point. If he shows such on a consistent basis over the next couple to few seasons, I'd feel more comfortable saying that he can be mentioned seriously in the same breath as Forsberg -- I will however admit that I did my self post on another forum that a couple of his moves reminded me of the many moves Forsberg displayed while healthy and wearing Orange & Black.

I know that statistics by them selves mean nothing... and especially so when they are separated by over a decade, and a whole set of revised rules and competition... but, for curiosity, I looked up the first seasons of Forsberg and Giroux -- ignoring Giroux's two game call up from Juniors in 2007-08 -- The playoffs were strikingly similar, with Forsberg getting the odd extra assist... but the regular season greatly favored Foppa in all categories, even the special teams play that I didn't copy here. As I said, they prove nothing, but are interesting; Giroux's is the stats of a promising player, while Forsberg's are stats of a better than PPG player who would only get better.

Forsberg.................Gm.....G.....A.....pts... .+/-
1994-1995 Nordiques..7.....15....35.....50....17........ Regular Season
1994-1995 Nordiques..6.......2.....4.......6.....2......... Post Season

Giroux
2008-2009 Flyers......42.......9....18.....27....10........ Regular Season
2008-2009 Flyers........6.......2.....3.......5......2...... .. Post Season

Holy ****, if only Forsberg could have kept up that 7ppg average for his entire career he'd have surpassed Gretzky's career totals in only 5 seasons. Also averaging 2 goals a game, that's wonderful, I'd take just half that from Giroux. Hmm, now that I look at it though, if Forsberg scored 50 points in just 7 games but was just a +17 that means that there were at least 33 goals scored against his team in those 7 games while he was on the ice. Hmm, that might just be the worst average ever. I mean geeze, your team is giving up just about 5 goals a game while your player is on the ice, I don't know if I lik that.


Obviously there is a mistake somewhere in your post Those numbers would be pretty crazy if true though.

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08-10-2009, 11:07 AM
  #62
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Secretariat got nothing on Claude Giroux.

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08-10-2009, 11:28 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Holy ****, if only Forsberg could have kept up that 7ppg average for his entire career he'd have surpassed Gretzky's career totals in only 5 seasons. Also averaging 2 goals a game, that's wonderful, I'd take just half that from Giroux. Hmm, now that I look at it though, if Forsberg scored 50 points in just 7 games but was just a +17 that means that there were at least 33 goals scored against his team in those 7 games while he was on the ice. Hmm, that might just be the worst average ever. I mean geeze, your team is giving up just about 5 goals a game while your player is on the ice, I don't know if I lik that.


Obviously there is a mistake somewhere in your post Those numbers would be pretty crazy if true though.
Late night frittin with finding a way to line up the numbers under the headings knocked off a '4'... that was 47 Regular Season games, which has now been corrected through an edit. Thanks for pointing that out -- although a gentler and less sarcastic approach would have been nice.

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08-10-2009, 11:30 AM
  #64
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Secretariat got nothing on Claude Giroux.
Yes... but how well does Gee do on a muddy track?

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08-10-2009, 03:14 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
You can really tell that bolded portion from half of a season and six playoff games? I have to admit that I didn't see much of Foppa that first half season he played in Quebec City, and remember nothing of it other than what I read... I saw a few glimpses of Giroux's moves that might be considered reminiscent of Forsberg, but far too few to consider him an heir apparent... or say that he has generational skills or is a lock to excel in anything, at this point. If he shows such on a consistent basis over the next couple to few seasons, I'd feel more comfortable saying that he can be mentioned seriously in the same breath as Forsberg -- I will however admit that I did my self post on another forum that a couple of his moves reminded me of the many moves Forsberg displayed while healthy and wearing Orange & Black.

I know that statistics by them selves mean nothing... and especially so when they are separated by over a decade, and a whole set of revised rules and competition... but, for curiosity, I looked up the first seasons of Forsberg and Giroux -- ignoring Giroux's two game call up from Juniors in 2007-08 -- The playoffs were strikingly similar, with Forsberg getting the odd extra assist... but the regular season greatly favored Foppa in all categories, even the special teams play that I didn't copy here. As I said, they prove nothing, but are interesting; Giroux's is the stats of a promising player, while Forsberg's are stats of a better than PPG player who would only get better.

Forsberg.................Gm.....G.....A.....pts... .+/-
1994-1995 Nordiques.47.....15....35.....50....17........ Regular Season
1994-1995 Nordiques..6.......2.....4.......6.....2......... Post Season

Giroux
2008-2009 Flyers......42.......9....18.....27....10........ Regular Season
2008-2009 Flyers........6.......2.....3.......5......2...... .. Post Season
You know Claude was playing hockey well before he ever put on a Flyers sweater, right? His elite vision and hockey IQ are indisputable, and have been since the moment he started playing for Gatineau in the QMJHL. I wasn't basing my assertion about Giroux's skills or the fact that he steps his game up to another level in the playoffs solely on this past season. Rather, I was basing it on what he did during the playoffs while he played in the Q (go ahead, look up the stats); all his performance with the Flyers in this year's playoffs did was reinforce to me that he's a big-game player and saves his best performances for when the stakes are highest, regardless of the level of competition.

As for comparing Giroux's rookie stats to Forsberg's... as you alluded to, the game was VERY different 15 years ago, so I don't think point totals is the best platform for comparison. Go look at the individual point totals that were being put up in the early-to-mid-90's and compare them to what we see today. I don't think it's fair to compare the two players' rookie season point totals -- it's not so black and white. Let's also not forget to mention that as a rookie Forsberg had the good fortune of playing on a line with a future Hall of Famer in Joe Sakic.

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08-10-2009, 04:44 PM
  #66
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You know Claude was playing hockey well before he ever put on a Flyers sweater, right? His elite vision and hockey IQ are indisputable, and have been since the moment he started playing for Gatineau in the QMJHL. I wasn't basing my assertion about Giroux's skills or the fact that he steps his game up to another level in the playoffs solely on this past season. Rather, I was basing it on what he did during the playoffs while he played in the Q (go ahead, look up the stats); all his performance with the Flyers in this year's playoffs did was reinforce to me that he's a big-game player and saves his best performances for when the stakes are highest, regardless of the level of competition.

As for comparing Giroux's rookie stats to Forsberg's... as you alluded to, the game was VERY different 15 years ago, so I don't think point totals is the best platform for comparison. Go look at the individual point totals that were being put up in the early-to-mid-90's and compare them to what we see today. I don't think it's fair to compare the two players' rookie season point totals -- it's not so black and white. Let's also not forget to mention that as a rookie Forsberg had the good fortune of playing on a line with a future Hall of Famer in Joe Sakic.

The rookie stats were merely for curiosity and amusement... They prove nothing really -- other than Forsberg started out at a better than a PPG clip, but again, another time period.

I guess I'm just saying in all this that the many a Junior phenom was found on the side of the NHL road, trampled by players who were lower picks, and not earmarked for stardom... There are many a Daigle, a Faloon, a Brendl has beens, or even never wases... Comparing Giroux's talent with Forsberg at this point in his NHL career is quite a bit premature.

We also must remember that many a player was selected befor Giroux late First Round selection... and he was a player Clarke and his scouts settled on -- thank God? -- after his original selection was snatched out from under them by the Rags... So twentysomeodd teams passed on the player you saw in Juniors as a Foreberg peer.

listen, I love Gee... and I look for his stardom to blossom in the NHL... BUT, I don't know if he ever can come close to Forsberg in his moves and on ice awareness... and I can't say that I would be disappointed if he never became that level a player. If he is on par with Carter and Richards I will be elated... and I will not look for him reaching #17/#18 level for a while.

I just don't want too high of a bar being set and expectations being unmet if he doesn't become Forsberg-II in Philly and the NHL. I will settle for Gee being a Forsberg-Lite when he hits his stride... Not too shabby a career goal, IMO.

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08-10-2009, 05:04 PM
  #67
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Late night frittin with finding a way to line up the numbers under the headings knocked off a '4'... that was 47 Regular Season games, which has now been corrected through an edit. Thanks for pointing that out -- although a gentler and less sarcastic approach would have been nice.
I didn't really mean it to be mean, I was just having some fun with the numbers. Honestly, can you imagine scoring 50 points in 7 games and still only being a + 17? That's not very good. Even in 47 games that's not very good unless a lot of his points came during the PP when it doesn't affect your +/-.


However, I'd also like to see a cmparison of their ATOI and PPTOI too just to see how that affects our perspective of their rookie seasons. Don't get me wrong, I don't see any way that Giroux is going to come close to stacing up to Forsberg as a rookie but I am willing to bet that Pere saw more ice time in general and a good bit more on the PP.

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08-10-2009, 05:51 PM
  #68
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I didn't really mean it to be mean, I was just having some fun with the numbers. Honestly, can you imagine scoring 50 points in 7 games and still only being a + 17? That's not very good. Even in 47 games that's not very good unless a lot of his points came during the PP when it doesn't affect your +/-.


However, I'd also like to see a cmparison of their ATOI and PPTOI too just to see how that affects our perspective of their rookie seasons. Don't get me wrong, I don't see any way that Giroux is going to come close to stacing up to Forsberg as a rookie but I am willing to bet that Pere saw more ice time in general and a good bit more on the PP.


You weren't being mean... you were merely displaying a good sense of humor -- I think I include three laughing emoticons in my response; did I not? -- I like to tease and kid around also.

I believe that Forsberg had three PP goals, I don't have the assists... So that is 30 goals against, less any ones that would be offset by PP assists, if I am figuring correctly... That was in the season that was cut short by the work stoppage, 48 games were played by the Nords.

That adds another dimension on the numbers, being that Foppa actually played in all but one Regular Season games... While it doesn't alter the +/- numbers Forsberg racked up, it does roughly project out to maybe a plus 30 over a full season -- off the top of my head.

Also, the Nords were 2nd in the NHL in that shortened season... after being 19th the season before; Forsberg had to have been a big reason for that, I would assume... It must also be remembered that that was not very long after the team was dead last in the NHL, and they were in financial trouble before the Flyers cash and players bailed them out, and improved the team... or at least set them on the right path.

I would have to do some more research to find out the TOI for each rookie... And, also, it would be nice to see what quality opposing players each were drawing game in and game out... Was Foppa with Sakic in that rookie year, and were they drawing the to D-men and Defensive Forwards?

IMO, no matter how you slice and dice, mix and match, Forsberg had a mighty fine rookie season... And the emergence of the Nords/Avs becoming a force the season he came into the NHL may not be pure coincidence.

It can be argued that a lesser team allows a rookie to play more and shine more, whereas a better team eases a rookie into the mix more... thus the AHL start for Giroux, and probably less TOI until he proved to have earned more.


... In the end, only the test of time will show who is the better player. As it stands, Fopp has completed his career -- more likely than not -- and has set a huge bar for Giroux to aim for... Gee has not played a full season... Seriously, this talk is very premature; I keep coming down to that as I analyze it.

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08-10-2009, 07:32 PM
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phlocky is sooooo mean.

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08-10-2009, 07:40 PM
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phlocky is sooooo mean.
He actually made me cry... sniff, sniff... but I wasn't gonna give him the satisfaction of knowing he got me.

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08-10-2009, 08:38 PM
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Yes... but how well does Gee do on a muddy track?
Well Tyler Kennedy's **** and Claude walked all over him in Game 3 so that's about the same consistency as mud, right?

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08-10-2009, 09:22 PM
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Well Tyler Kennedy's **** and Claude walked all over him in Game 3 so that's about the same consistency as mud, right?
So... You are calling Giroux a mean mudder, eh?

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08-11-2009, 12:35 AM
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Giroux will win the Vezina 12 times. You heard it here first!

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08-11-2009, 04:51 AM
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How much time did claude see on the powerplay and PK last year though? and how much did foppa see on the powerplay for the nords?

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08-11-2009, 09:14 AM
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How much time did claude see on the powerplay and PK last year though? and how much did foppa see on the powerplay for the nords?
After extensive research, with the resources available on the Internet, I have personally been unable to find those breakouts for 1994-95... My guess is that TOI is not being kept for that season, or those seasons that far back... IDK.





Not directed to anyone in particular, and everybody in general... in all seriousness -- and again going back to what brought this all up -- to try and justify the argument that a rookie with 42 games under his belt is the equal to one of the all-time greats in the NHL, is in my mind an experiment in futility... No matter the stats -- who played more minutes, against which opponents and against which depth chart players, and in what role -- is both too large a task and realistically doesn't prove a thing... Just as even completed careers in sports prove nothing and only influence public opinion as to who was greater, Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Bonds/Gretzky,Lemieux,Howe,Orr... doing so with a dozen or so year veteran, with hardware up the wazoo, and a proven record versus a rookie with a half season track record can't even influence public opinion to any real extent.

At this point, IMO, all we have is a gut feeling... If anyone here wants to believe that Giroux is on an equal footing with Forsberg on the talent front, they have the right to do so... With no solid facts to prove or disprove future performance, and not enough track record to judge past performance, and acknowledging the fact that styles of play are a personal perception for the most part, I think that I don't want to go any further in the Giroux vs Forsberg debate... IMO, people who feel Gee is an equal to Foppa have a gut feeling and nothing at this point can disprove it to them, nor can anything support that gut feeling.

... All I know is that I'm looking forward to his career and hope that he can get a couple of Cups like Foppa did... and win them in O&B.

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