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Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)

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Old
08-12-2009, 06:53 AM
  #51
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I think that's a bit unfair. I mean, Kharlamov did do SOMETHING with his skill(s), eh?

Unlike with Mikhailov and Petrov (usually), you needed often more than one player to stop Kharlamov (in his prime 1969-76, at least); i.e. he was fast and he could dangle, and thus he often created room for his linemates. That's something that statistics don't maybe show.
I think that's what's often forgotten with Kharlamov. He may not have statistically out shined his linemates, but, he did more to improve his linemates numbers than they did his. He was the play creator.

Esposito may have had better numbers than Orr, but that doesn't make him a better player.

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08-12-2009, 06:58 AM
  #52
Canadiens1958
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Kharlamov vs Lidstrom

An interesting logical misdirect has evolved. Kharlamov anecdotally beating mid level NHL defensemen such as Don Awrey, Gary Bergman, Pat Stapleton, Bill White (none of the four will get close to the top 100) to the outside seems to be a sign of greatness. Quotes without links are provided to show that this was a constant threat, etc. Yet the simple fact is that Kharlamov scored a total of three goals in the series, two in the first game, one in the balance of the series so after the first game and before the Clarke slash a one goal in 5 games performance is not a sign of greatness.

On the other hand a popular video showing a very average NHL player R.J.Umberger beating Nicklas Lidstrom to the outside to score a goal, is downplayed as being indicative of the specific defenseman's weakness.

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08-12-2009, 07:06 AM
  #53
Canadiens1958
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Mikhailov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I think that's what's often forgotten with Kharlamov. He may not have statistically out shined his linemates, but, he did more to improve his linemates numbers than they did his. He was the play creator.

Esposito may have had better numbers than Orr, but that doesn't make him a better player.
Mikhailov with his physical North American style did a lot more to create open ice especially against European opponents. Petrov who was defensively responsible, as was the case for most Soviet centers, allowed Kharlamov the freedom to focus on offense.

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08-12-2009, 07:59 AM
  #54
VMBM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
An interesting logical misdirect has evolved. Kharlamov anecdotally beating mid level NHL defensemen such as Don Awrey, Gary Bergman, Pat Stapleton, Bill White (none of the four will get close to the top 100) to the outside seems to be a sign of greatness. Quotes without links are provided to show that this was a constant threat, etc. Yet the simple fact is that Kharlamov scored a total of three goals in the series, two in the first game, one in the balance of the series so after the first game and before the Clarke slash a one goal in 5 games performance is not a sign of greatness.

On the other hand a popular video showing a very average NHL player R.J.Umberger beating Nicklas Lidstrom to the outside to score a goal, is downplayed as being indicative of the specific defenseman's weakness.
I'm just beginning to wonder; is it goal-scoring that means everything to you and things like playmaking, for example, don't mean anything? Kharlamov getting 7 points (according to the 'official statistics', which are basically crap, but I don't want to get into it now) in the 5 and 1/2 games (when he was healthy) is not very bad, is it?

In another thread you blamed Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov for not scoring more than 7 goals (actually 8/9 like I said) in the 1974 Summit Series, but apparently you don't care that the top unit was actually responsible for 13 goals (about 40 %).

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08-12-2009, 08:08 AM
  #55
Canadiens1958
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Actually

Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'm just beginning to wonder; is it goal-scoring that means everything to you and things like playmaking, for example, don't mean anything? Kharlamov getting 7 points (according to the 'official statistics', which are basically crap, but I don't want to get into it now) in the 5 and 1/2 games (when he was healthy) is not very bad, is it?

In another thread you blamed Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov for not scoring more than 7 goals (actually 8/9 like I said) in the 1974 Summit Series, but apparently you don't care that the top unit was actually responsible for 13 goals (about 40 %).
Statements of fact are the only consideration. Facts are that they scored seven goals in the 1974 Summit Series and this is what was relevent in the consideration of the seven Russian forwards in question.

Now you start re-writing history, changing scoring and referee's decisions to suit your agenda. Not worth the keystrokes.

Good Luck.

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08-12-2009, 08:19 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Statements of fact are the only consideration. Facts are that they scored seven goals in the 1974 Summit Series and this is what was relevent in the consideration of the seven Russian forwards in question.

Now you start re-writing history, changing scoring and referee's decisions to suit your agenda. Not worth the keystrokes.

Good Luck.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...8&postcount=23]

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08-12-2009, 09:23 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
And top 5 rankings among Soviet defensemen in MVP voting, 1968-1991:

Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth Total
Vyacheslav Fetisov 2 2 3 1 1 9
Valeri Vasiliev 1 2 3
Alexander Ragulin 1 1
Alexei Kasatonov 1 1

Thanks to Triffy/HO for information and summary. Were there any defensemen getting votes for this that I've forgotten about?

Fetisov won the MVP in 1982 and 1986, and in both years he finished ahead of Makarov in voting.
Robinson has 2 Norrises and a Conn Smythe, obviously against better competition - but Fetisov was not the "Russian Larry Robinson" he was the "Russian Bobby Orr". Like comparing Kharlamov to Gretzky, that is most likely taking it too far, but Fetisov accomplished much more than Robinson.

Internationally, Fetisov has won two golds (1984, 1988) and one bronze (1980) in the Olympics, and seven golds (1978, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1990), one silver (1987), two bronzes (1985, 1991) in the World Championships, one Canada Cup in 1981, and Ice Hockey World Junior Championship in 1978 (selected best defenseman in 77 and 78).

He was a russian First All-Star Team nine times and played for Moscow CSKA which won seven straight Soviet championships (1977 to 1983).
At the World championships, he was named the tournament's best defenseman in five seasons. 1977 was also when the World championships moved to later in the years to allow more NHL players to participate.

Robinson did not fare nearly as well internationally--

Canada Cup scoring:

Robinson
1977: 7 GP 0 Pts
1982: 7 GP 1 Pts
1985: 8 GP 3 Pts

Fetisov
1982: 7 GP 8 Pts
1988: 8 GP 7 Pts

At the 1981 World Championships, Robinson had 2 Pts in 6 games while Fetisov had 5 Pts in 8 games. All told, Fetisov had 96 points in 101 games throughout 11 seasons at the World Champinships. 33 points in 22 games at the Olympics.

Obviously Robinson has a much better NHL career, and like all early russians coming over, Fetisov struggled with the NHL initially, but he was always a defensive stalwart despite not having the same offensive game he once had. It is also interesting that the tail end of Fetisov's career in the NHL is better than Robinson's (their final 5 years).

Any intangible you want to award for leadership, ingenuity, hard work, integrity, longevity, dedication to the sport - they all apply to Fetisov who still examplifies russian hockey, despite being one of the first defectors. He planned on retiring after the 1997 season and Stanley Cup, but came back one more year to help win one for Konstantinov.

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Old
08-12-2009, 09:47 AM
  #58
Howe Elbows 9
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C1958: Are you honestly still going on about the Umberger video?

Here's some more info about some of the greats in Soviet:

Soviet MVP Top 5 rankings:
Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth Total
Vladislav Tretiak 5 2 3 2 12
Sergei Makarov 3 2 2 3 10
Vyacheslav Fetisov 2 2 3 1 1 9
Boris Mikhailov 2 1 2 1 2 8
Valeri Kharlamov 1 3 2 2 8
Aleksander Maltsev 1 2 1 4 8
Vladimir Krutov 1 2 2 1 6
Vladimir Petrov 2 1 1 4
Anatoli Firsov 3 3
Igor Larionov 1 2 3
Vyacheslav Starshinov 1 2 3

In 1972 Kharlamov and Maltsev were tied, but Maltsev had more first place votes.

Something to note is the dominance of CSKA Moscow not only in the Soviet league, but also when it came to voting on this award.

I'd say this is a somewhat similar situation to when the Habs had Harvey/Beliveau/Richard/Plante - only more dominant compared to the teams they faced. Who should their success primarily be attributed to?

Let's take a look at what teams had players that were considered as top 3 in Soviet MVP voting:

Year First Second Third
1968 CSKA Spartak Torpedo Gorky
1969 CSKA Spartak Spartak
1970 Gorky Dynamo Spartak
1971 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1972 Dynamo CSKA CSKA
1973 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1974 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1975 CSKA CSKA Spartak
1976 CSKA CSKA Spartak
1977 Riga CSKA CSKA/CSKA
1978 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1979 CSKA ? ?
1980 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1981 CSKA Dynamo Spartak
1982 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1983 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1984 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1985 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1986 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1987 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1988 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1989 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1990 CSKA Riga CSKA
1991 CSKA CSKA Dynamo

I'm sorry if your eyes hurt from reading that, but this is how dominant they actually were. In 1983, 1986 and 1987, only players from CSKA made the top 5. To try to put some players achievements in perspective, here is when they played for the club:

Tretiak: 1969-70 to 1983-84
Kharlamov: 1967-68 to 1980-81
Mikhailov: 1969-70 to 1980-81
Fetisov: 1977-78 to 1988-89
Makarov: 1978-79 to 1988-89
Krutov: 1978-79 to 1988-89
Larionov: 1981-82 to 1988-89
Petrov: 1969-70 to 1980-81
Firsov: 1962-63 to 1972-73

On another note, could someone try a statistical comparison (with any relevant data) of Taylor and Lalonde to their contemporaries?

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Old
08-12-2009, 10:28 AM
  #59
TheDevilMadeMe
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Reading some of the comments in this thread, I get the impression that Lindsay and Hall will not end up as high on this list as they did last year (when Hall was 21st and Lindsay 23rd). Any comments on that theory?
I can only speak for myself, but I think they were too high last time. Comparing them to modern players - I have Lindsay on about the same level as Yzerman who is up for voting this round but likely won't make it, and I have Hall a bit behind Brodeur, who isn't up for voting yet.

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08-12-2009, 10:35 AM
  #60
Canadiens1958
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Kharlamov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
C1958: Are you honestly still going on about the Umberger video?

Here's some more info about some of the greats in Soviet:

Soviet MVP Top 5 rankings:
Player First Second Third Fourth Fifth Total
Vladislav Tretiak 5 2 3 2 12
Sergei Makarov 3 2 2 3 10
Vyacheslav Fetisov 2 2 3 1 1 9
Boris Mikhailov 2 1 2 1 2 8
Valeri Kharlamov 1 3 2 2 8
Aleksander Maltsev 1 2 1 4 8
Vladimir Krutov 1 2 2 1 6
Vladimir Petrov 2 1 1 4
Anatoli Firsov 3 3
Igor Larionov 1 2 3
Vyacheslav Starshinov 1 2 3

In 1972 Kharlamov and Maltsev were tied, but Maltsev had more first place votes.

Something to note is the dominance of CSKA Moscow not only in the Soviet league, but also when it came to voting on this award.

I'd say this is a somewhat similar situation to when the Habs had Harvey/Beliveau/Richard/Plante - only more dominant compared to the teams they faced. Who should their success primarily be attributed to?

Let's take a look at what teams had players that were considered as top 3 in Soviet MVP voting:

Year First Second Third
1968 CSKA Spartak Torpedo Gorky
1969 CSKA Spartak Spartak
1970 Gorky Dynamo Spartak
1971 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1972 Dynamo CSKA CSKA
1973 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1974 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1975 CSKA CSKA Spartak
1976 CSKA CSKA Spartak
1977 Riga CSKA CSKA/CSKA
1978 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1979 CSKA ? ?
1980 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1981 CSKA Dynamo Spartak
1982 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1983 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1984 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1985 CSKA CSKA Dynamo
1986 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1987 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1988 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1989 CSKA CSKA CSKA
1990 CSKA Riga CSKA
1991 CSKA CSKA Dynamo

I'm sorry if your eyes hurt from reading that, but this is how dominant they actually were. In 1983, 1986 and 1987, only players from CSKA made the top 5. To try to put some players achievements in perspective, here is when they played for the club:

Tretiak: 1969-70 to 1983-84
Kharlamov: 1967-68 to 1980-81
Mikhailov: 1969-70 to 1980-81
Fetisov: 1977-78 to 1988-89
Makarov: 1978-79 to 1988-89
Krutov: 1978-79 to 1988-89
Larionov: 1981-82 to 1988-89
Petrov: 1969-70 to 1980-81
Firsov: 1962-63 to 1972-73

On another note, could someone try a statistical comparison (with any relevant data) of Taylor and Lalonde to their contemporaries?
Based on the Soviet MVP voting Kharlamov seems to be fifth in line.
Before going any further two questions arise. What was the definition of MVP in the REL. Are we talking best player, most popular player, most valuable player, what was the exact criteria and was it limited to league play or were outside the league and international games considered?

Who was doing the actually voting and was it a secret ballot vote or a consensus vote?

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Old
08-12-2009, 11:28 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I think that's what's often forgotten with Kharlamov. He may not have statistically out shined his linemates, but, he did more to improve his linemates numbers than they did his. He was the play creator.

Esposito may have had better numbers than Orr, but that doesn't make him a better player.
Exactly. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
An interesting logical misdirect has evolved. Kharlamov anecdotally beating mid level NHL defensemen such as Don Awrey, Gary Bergman, Pat Stapleton, Bill White (none of the four will get close to the top 100) to the outside seems to be a sign of greatness. Quotes without links are provided to show that this was a constant threat, etc. Yet the simple fact is that Kharlamov scored a total of three goals in the series, two in the first game, one in the balance of the series so after the first game and before the Clarke slash a one goal in 5 games performance is not a sign of greatness.

On the other hand a popular video showing a very average NHL player R.J.Umberger beating Nicklas Lidstrom to the outside to score a goal, is downplayed as being indicative of the specific defenseman's weakness.
Hmmm. Well known famous quotes from the Hockey world need links do they?
http://www.russianhockey.net/1972%20...theSeries.html
http://proicehockey.about.com/librar...son-clarke.htm
http://www.hhof.com/legendsofhockey/...clep200501.htm

Goals are not everything. Assists matter just as much from Guys like Kharlamov, who creates offense from many angles.

In any case, this is historical "Rewriting" coming from you, who demeans everyone else for doing it. He is the consensus best Russian player ever in Russia by the majority of Russians everywhere. No amount of slagging is going to change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Mikhailov with his physical North American style did a lot more to create open ice especially against European opponents. Petrov who was defensively responsible, as was the case for most Soviet centers, allowed Kharlamov the freedom to focus on offense.
This would not have mattered at the 72 summit series given that Kharlamov played with different linemates. Mikhailov and Petrov played with Blinov for 5 games and another player(Ill throw the DVD in later to remember who), while Kharlamov was with Vikulov and Maltsev.

In any case, Kharlamov always attracted the bulk of the attention. Enough to warrant Canada intentionally taking him out to stop him as a last resort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Based on the Soviet MVP voting Kharlamov seems to be fifth in line.
Before going any further two questions arise. What was the definition of MVP in the REL. Are we talking best player, most popular player, most valuable player, what was the exact criteria and was it limited to league play or were outside the league and international games considered?

Who was doing the actually voting and was it a secret ballot vote or a consensus vote?
Journalists from Russia voted on the "Best" player, although I questioned its veracity on occasion. Votes were publically released in the weekly paper "Football-Hockey", Much like Journalists for the Hart voting on a trophy in North America.
http://www.russian-hockey.ru/a/cccp/best_pl_goda.htm
http://www.russian-hockey.ru/a/cccp/laur_cccp.htm

Links were given directly from Pnep. Use google translate if you wan to look at the original source.

Or, the results were translated here.
http://www.hockeyarchives.info/


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-12-2009 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
08-12-2009, 11:28 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Based on the Soviet MVP voting Kharlamov seems to be fifth in line.
Before going any further two questions arise. What was the definition of MVP in the REL. Are we talking best player, most popular player, most valuable player, what was the exact criteria and was it limited to league play or were outside the league and international games considered?

Who was doing the actually voting and was it a secret ballot vote or a consensus vote?
You could quite easily ask those same questions about the Hart trophy. The voters criteria in the 40s and 50s are clearly not the same as they are in the 80s, 90s, and today. As such, you could argue based on which voting trends you value (most valuable to the team vs. best player in the league) that Hart voting has very little importance in some eras versus others. That's a big reason I feel that Hart voting records and "Hart Shares" are very suspect criteria to use across eras unless you clearly define which set of standards you plan to use. You can' really compare the Hart results from the 50s to those of the 80s and say they meant the same thing.

Unless you plan to argue that Hart voting is also suspect, you can't really denigrate MVP voting in other leagues based on the same reasons.

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08-12-2009, 11:33 AM
  #63
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You could quite easily ask those same questions about the Hart trophy. The voters criteria in the 40s and 50s are clearly not the same as they are in the 80s, 90s, and today. As such, you could argue based on which voting trends you value (most valuable to the team vs. best player in the league) that Hart voting has very little importance in some eras versus others. That's a big reason I feel that Hart voting records and "Hart Shares" are very suspect criteria to use across eras unless you clearly define which set of standards you plan to use. You can' really compare the Hart results from the 50s to those of the 80s and say they meant the same thing.

Unless you plan to argue that Hart voting is also suspect, you can't really denigrate MVP voting in other leagues based on the same reasons.
I don't see any denigrating. I see a legitimate question asked.

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08-12-2009, 11:34 AM
  #64
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1. Bobby Clarke
2. Jaromir Jagr
3. Mark Messier
4. Bryan Trottier
5. Ted Lindsay
6. Mike Bossy
7. Terry Sawchuk
8. Valeri Kharlamov
9. Joe Sakic
10. Steve Yzerman
11. Glenn Hall
12. Larry Robinson
13. Cyclone Taylor
14. Newsy Lalonde
15. Viacheslav Fetisov

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08-12-2009, 11:38 AM
  #65
Howe Elbows 9
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It's a legitimate question, but I believe FF was trying to say that just like you can't trust Soviet MVP votes to conclusively say who the best player was, you can't trust Hart votes either. But I really should let him speak for himself...

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08-12-2009, 11:46 AM
  #66
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I don't see any denigrating. I see a legitimate question asked.
A legitimate and very necessary question. I would be very interested to hear whether international play was involved or was it just national league based like the Hart trophy.

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08-12-2009, 11:54 AM
  #67
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A legitimate and very necessary question. I would be very interested to hear whether international play was involved or was it just national league based like the Hart trophy.
Well, that would give the answer to the Firsov mystery, I guess (i.e. sometimes poor[ish] numbers in the Soviet league, and yet ---> MVP).

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08-12-2009, 12:04 PM
  #68
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Rel Mvp Voting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
It's a legitimate question, but I believe FF was trying to say that just like you can't trust Soviet MVP votes to conclusively say who the best player was, you can't trust Hart votes either. But I really should let him speak for himself...
Posts seem to be pointing in the direction of "Best Player" as opposed to "Most Valuable" or "Most Popular".Although no one has stepped forward to clarify if international games were part of the mix and if it was a closed ballot. It seems that people simply do not know.

This brings us to another issue. As posted previously in the table by Shirtless Joe is seems that Kharlamov ranks approximately fifth in the MVP or "Best Player" voting. On the other hand there seems to be a view that the Soviet hockey fans consider Kharlamov to be the "Best Player" by far.

If this view is correct then there must be evidence of the Soviet hockey fans strongly protesting the voting yet there does not seem to be any evidence of such protests. Could someone provide evidence of such protests?

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08-12-2009, 12:40 PM
  #69
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Sorry I didn't vote last time. Focused on holidays.

Top 10 for this round (going from the top of my head):

1. Terry Sawchuk: Why is this guy still an option?
2. Ted Lindsay: A clear cut above any other forward available. Look at how he played the game.
3. Mark Messier: Definitely the best option among the new options. Look at how he played the game. Part 2.
4. Glenn Hall: Most first team all-star nods among goalies, and the most unbreakable record in the sport.
5. Bobby Clarke: One of hockey's greatest leaders, greatest competitors and greatest playmakers.
6. Larry Robinson: One of the defining defencemen of all time. Everyone is still looking for the next Robinson.
7. Bryan Trottier: One of the great two-way centres to ever play the game. Key part of a dynasty.
8. Mike Bossy: One of the best goal scorers ever was an underrated playmaker. Three straight 17-goal playoffs.
9. Jaromir Jagr: An offensive machine who dominated with goal-scoring, playmaking and sheer strength.
10. Slava Fetisov: Tremendous all-round defender who played with a mean streak and great skill.

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08-12-2009, 12:55 PM
  #70
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Top 10 Soviet Players...........

Per THN:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ts/rutop10.htm

IIHF at the Olympics:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm

Europeans:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/10europe.htm

Valeri Kharlamov does not top any list nor can a consensus case be made.

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08-12-2009, 01:03 PM
  #71
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Per THN:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ts/rutop10.htm

IIHF at the Olympics:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm

Europeans:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/10europe.htm

Valeri Kharlamov does not top any list nor can a consensus case be made.
Though Fetisov is 1,2 and 3.
He is being underrated here.

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08-12-2009, 01:13 PM
  #72
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Per THN:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ts/rutop10.htm

IIHF at the Olympics:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm

Europeans:

http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/10europe.htm

Valeri Kharlamov does not top any list nor can a consensus case be made.
All of those links posted up by Chidlovski, but were conducted by non-Russian sources.

That same website Heralds Kharlamov as Soviet MVP of the decade over many of those on the other lists who played with him.
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ry/sumvpkh.htm

If you want real top 10 lists from the people who saw them play the most, the Russians, use Google translate and start combing for Russian websites, or just post in the Russia section here.

Ill go by what I saw with my own two eyes, and the words of my Russian Friends who saw them play more than any of those Hockey News reporters.

Given that many Hockey news Journalists rate Lidstrom as better than Orr ever was, I find anything they have to say about as reliable as Stan Fischler.

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08-12-2009, 01:13 PM
  #73
TheDevilMadeMe
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A legitimate and very necessary question. I would be very interested to hear whether international play was involved or was it just national league based like the Hart trophy.
Nikolai Drozdetsky finished 3rd in Soviet League scoring in both 1981 and 1984. He was not Top 5 in MVP voting in 1981, but he won it in 1984 (technically, the Soviet Player of the Year" Award, not MVP). He won the award after his amazing performance in the Olympics that year (10 goals in 7 games). While not conclusive proof, it does seem to indicate that international play was a factor.

1984 was also the only year Drozdetsky finished Top 5 in voting for the award.

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08-12-2009, 01:27 PM
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Howe Elbows 9
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This brings us to another issue. As posted previously in the table by Shirtless Joe is seems that Kharlamov ranks approximately fifth in the MVP or "Best Player" voting. On the other hand there seems to be a view that the Soviet hockey fans consider Kharlamov to be the "Best Player" by far.
One important factor to consider is what Jekyll posted about Kharlamov in this thread (post #18). There was a car accident in 1976 that hobbled his play for the rest of his career. After the accident, he could never return to the player he once was and wasn't considered top 5 in the Soviet league.

So longevity vs. peak is an important factor when ranking Kharlamov, as he had a great peak.

Personally, my top 3 Soviet players are ranked really close to each other, in the order (for today) of Kharlamov, Fetisov and Tretiak.

Going solely by Soviet MVPs would make Makarov really overrated in my opinion.

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08-12-2009, 01:56 PM
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Robinson has 2 Norrises and a Conn Smythe, obviously against better competition - but Fetisov was not the "Russian Larry Robinson" he was the "Russian Bobby Orr". Like comparing Kharlamov to Gretzky, that is most likely taking it too far, but Fetisov accomplished much more than Robinson.

Internationally, Fetisov has won two golds (1984, 1988) and one bronze (1980) in the Olympics, and seven golds (1978, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989, 1990), one silver (1987), two bronzes (1985, 1991) in the World Championships, one Canada Cup in 1981, and Ice Hockey World Junior Championship in 1978 (selected best defenseman in 77 and 78).

He was a russian First All-Star Team nine times and played for Moscow CSKA which won seven straight Soviet championships (1977 to 1983).
At the World championships, he was named the tournament's best defenseman in five seasons. 1977 was also when the World championships moved to later in the years to allow more NHL players to participate.

Robinson did not fare nearly as well internationally--

Canada Cup scoring:

Robinson
1977: 7 GP 0 Pts
1982: 7 GP 1 Pts
1985: 8 GP 3 Pts

Fetisov
1982: 7 GP 8 Pts
1988: 8 GP 7 Pts

At the 1981 World Championships, Robinson had 2 Pts in 6 games while Fetisov had 5 Pts in 8 games. All told, Fetisov had 96 points in 101 games throughout 11 seasons at the World Champinships. 33 points in 22 games at the Olympics.

Obviously Robinson has a much better NHL career, and like all early russians coming over, Fetisov struggled with the NHL initially, but he was always a defensive stalwart despite not having the same offensive game he once had. It is also interesting that the tail end of Fetisov's career in the NHL is better than Robinson's (their final 5 years).

Any intangible you want to award for leadership, ingenuity, hard work, integrity, longevity, dedication to the sport - they all apply to Fetisov who still examplifies russian hockey, despite being one of the first defectors. He planned on retiring after the 1997 season and Stanley Cup, but came back one more year to help win one for Konstantinov.
Your Canada Cup years are off a year.. they took place in '76, '81, '84, and '87.

Bolded.. the exact same could be said for Robinson.

On my Top 100 list, I had Robinson exactly 1 place higher than Fetisov.. but, it honestly could go either way.

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