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Round 2, Vote 3 (2009 update)

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Old
08-13-2009, 12:35 AM
  #101
lextune
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My list as of tonight:

21. Bobby Clarke
22. Mike Bossy
23. Mark Messier
24. Terry Sawchuk
25. Ted Lindsay
26. Jaromir Jagr
27. Valeri Kharlamov
28. Bryan Trottier
29. Steve Yzerman
30. Glenn Hall
31. Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
32. Viacheslav Fetisov
33. Joe Sakic
34. Larry Robinson
35. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor

I keep flip-flopping on Jagr/Lindsay. It's so apples and oranges.



Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 18 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 8/16. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 8/9, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.
FF, when are the votes due?

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Old
08-13-2009, 12:51 AM
  #102
TheDevilMadeMe
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In brief, why I consider Messier the best player left:

1) He stood out as a leader in the playoffs even on the Edmonton Oilers, winning the first Conn Smythe of the dynasty. Maybe it should have been Gretzky's, but if the writers were desperate to find someone other than Gretzky to give it to, Messier was their first choice.

2) He started getting Hart considerations pretty much immediately after Gretzky left.

3) 2 Hart Trophies playing at the same time as 2 generational talents. Without Gretzky and Lemieux, Messier would have 2 Art Rosses and 3 Harts (links provided up thread).

4) Played in 15 NHL All Star games, spanning a period of 23 years (82-04).

5) 295 career playoff points - 62 points above 2nd place.

6) They named the Mark Messier Leadership Award after him. Yes, it's kind of a joke of an award. But the fact that there is an official NHL award named after him says something about his historical significance.


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Old
08-13-2009, 12:53 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
My list as of tonight:

21. Bobby Clarke
22. Mike Bossy
23. Mark Messier
24. Terry Sawchuk
25. Ted Lindsay
26. Jaromir Jagr
27. Valeri Kharlamov
28. Bryan Trottier
29. Steve Yzerman
30. Glenn Hall
31. Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde
32. Viacheslav Fetisov
33. Joe Sakic
34. Larry Robinson
35. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor

I keep flip-flopping on Jagr/Lindsay. It's so apples and oranges.





FF, when are the votes due?
Yzerman that much over Sakic? I hate seeing him listed above Sakic, but I realize it's not an uncommon opinion. You've been ranking dmen lower than most after the first round, but I'm sure you know that.

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08-13-2009, 12:55 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
FF, when are the votes due?
Sunday 8/16

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Old
08-13-2009, 12:55 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3) 2 Hart Trophies playing at the same time as 2 generational talents.
3 generational talents actually. One of which he stole one of his two Hart's from....

....(that was for dramatic effect, lol, obviously it was a handful of corrupt writers that actually did the stealing on his behalf).

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08-13-2009, 12:56 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lextune View Post
3 generational talents actually. One of which he stole one of his two Hart's from....

....(that was for dramatic effect, lol, obviously it was a handful of corrupt writers that actually did the stealing on his behalf).
Then why did Mark Messier win the Lester B Pearson Award if Bourque was clearly better than him that season.

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08-13-2009, 12:57 AM
  #107
TheDevilMadeMe
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I think I might have Glenn Hall at the bottom of my list again. At least there's an argument for Terry Sawchuk as the #4 goalie of all time based on his peak and playoff success. Hall is basically Brodeur with less playoff success and less competition for regular season awards. Hopefully they are both up next round, so I can make a long comparison between the two. (I can do so now if anyone really thinks it would be helpful, but I don't want to make an annoyingly long post about a guy not up for voting yet).

I'm obviously open to being convinced otherwise.

Edit: And when thinking about Sawchuk vs. Hall, I keep coming back to the fact that Detroit gave up on Hall and brought Sawchuk (already known by them as an alcoholic) back after back to back playoff failures... gave up Sawchuk because they knew he was starting to hit the bottle too hard, but felt forced to bring him back because Hall couldn't cut it...

Yes, Hall has the one Smythe, but we all know that was a pity award for keeping the 4 straight games his expansion team lost in the finals close...

Sawchuk was very good in the 67 playoffs in his last hurrah with the Leafs.


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Old
08-13-2009, 12:59 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
6) They named the Mark Messier Leadership Award after him. Yes, it's kind of a joke of an award. But the fact that there is an official NHL award named after him says something about his historical significance.
Doesn't really mean much. Steve Yzerman was by far the better leader of that era. Gordie Howe was far more important than Messier but he doesn't have an NHL award nsamed after him. Neither does Bobby Hull. Messier has a persona, but his leadership isn't without some serious flaws. His Vancouver ordeal is fairly well documented and definitely a big black mark against his supposed outstanding leadership abilities.

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08-13-2009, 01:02 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Then why did Mark Messier win the Lester B Pearson Award if Bourque was clearly better than him that season.
It's well-documented that the only reason Messier won over Bourque was that several Edmonton writers intentionally left Bourque off their ballots because they felt it would be a close race and they didn't want to help Bourque at all. They were close for sure, but Bourque won that Hart if not for some extremely unethical voting practices by some homer writers.

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08-13-2009, 01:08 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Doesn't really mean much. Steve Yzerman was by far the better leader of that era. Gordie Howe was far more important than Messier but he doesn't have an NHL award nsamed after him. Neither does Bobby Hull. Messier has a persona, but his leadership isn't without some serious flaws. His Vancouver ordeal is fairly well documented and definitely a big black mark against his supposed outstanding leadership abilities.
Disagree with Yzerman being "by far" the better leader. Yzerman, Sakic, and Messier are all close in my opinion in terms of "leadership." Not that those outside the lockerroom know anything about their actual leadership... Yeah, Messier's leadership took a big hit when his skills could no longer keep up with his ego, but then Yzerman wasn't exactly the best leader until Bowman came around.

Agree that Howe and Hull were more important, but that isn't my point. The award does offer a small amount of proof as to his historical significance in my opinion. Not everyone gives bonus points for that, but I give a small amount of them. I'd still have him as my #1 this round without the stupid award.


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Old
08-13-2009, 01:13 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
From the Webster's Dictionary.

in unison

1. In complete agreement; harmonizing exactly.
2. At the same time; at once.


Looking over some old scouting notes left by Plante, before imparting your own well-developed idea's on a young Roy hardly strikes me as being in unison. You're suggesting that Plante and Allaire worked closely together in developing Patrick Roy.

Not true.
From the Webster' Online:

Entry Word:
unison
Function:
noun

Text: the act or fact of being of one opinion about something

Simply Francois Allaire with his theories incorporating the Canadines data bank which included Plante's observations with his theories and Patrick Roy's attributes created the above.

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:18 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You've been ranking dmen lower than most after the first round, but I'm sure you know that.
Well; as for this round, we obviously only have 2 D-Men out of 15 players.

I could see either one of them as high as 30 but not any higher.

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08-13-2009, 01:32 AM
  #113
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Terry Sawchuk VS Glenn Hall

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think I might have Glenn Hall at the bottom of my list again. At least there's an argument for Terry Sawchuk as the #4 goalie of all time based on his peak and playoff success. Hall is basically Brodeur with less playoff success and less competition for regular season awards. Hopefully they are both up next round, so I can make a long comparison between the two. (I can do so now if anyone really thinks it would be helpful, but I don't want to make an annoyingly long post about a guy not up for voting yet).

I'm obviously open to being convinced otherwise.

Edit: And when thinking about Sawchuk vs. Hall, I keep coming back to the fact that Detroit gave up on Hall and brought Sawchuk (already known by them as an alcoholic) back after back to back playoff failures... gave up Sawchuk because they knew he was starting to hit the bottle too hard, but felt forced to bring him back because Hall couldn't cut it...

Yes, Hall has the one Smythe, but we all know that was a pity award for keeping the 4 straight games his expansion team lost in the finals close...

Sawchuk was very good in the 67 playoffs in his last hurrah with the Leafs.
Terry Sawchuk vs Glenn Hall.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/...onep197504.htm

Glenn Hall's comments about Terry Sawchuk are very revealing.

Further in the write-up, Glenn Hall's comments about the value of training camp are also revealing. He views traing camp from a "Me" perspective what it could do for him as opposed to a team perspective and what showing up with everyone else contributes to commitment, team bonding, work ethic, development of young players by practicing against the number one goalie, etc.

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Old
08-13-2009, 01:58 AM
  #114
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Current thinking:

21. Mark Messier - explained above
22. Jaromir Jagr - best offensive player left by a good margin. No intangibles, but at some point, the offense overwhelms it
23. Valeri Kharlamov - best Russian ever by wide opinon. Voted Soviet MVP of the 70s.
24. Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde - Best pre Morenz NHLer by a good margin.
25. Fred "Cyclone" Taylor - slightly softer than Lalonde?
26. Mike Bossy - seems slightly more important to the Islander's dynasty than Trottier
27. Larry Robinson - the prototype of a dman who can hit and move the puck.
28. Bobby Clarke - I flip flop between him and Trottier
29. Bryan Trottier - I flip flop between him and Clarke
30. Viacheslav Fetisov - the 9th best dman ever, and a good margin over #10
31. Terry Sawchuk - I wouldn't mind seeing him go up now, but I still have questions. I could raise him a few more spots by the end.
32. Joe Sakic - less consistantly dominant at his position than his contemporary Brodeur, even accounting for competition
33. Steve Yzerman - below Sakic
34. Ted Lindsay - strongly considering flipping him and Yzerman.
35. Glenn Hall - below Sawchuk and no better than 1 or 2 goalies not yet listed


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 08-13-2009 at 02:11 AM.
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Old
08-13-2009, 02:09 AM
  #115
Howe Elbows 9
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, TDMM.

I haven't been able to make much sense of this data (originally posted by seventieslord) yet, but here it is anyway:

This was the background for the consistency in goalscoring/playmaking studies:

Quote:
I [seventieslord] went through every NHL season and recorded how many goals the 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th-highest goalscorer had each year. Using this chart I was able to quickly go through the career stat panels of over 600 players to see how often they were able to meet each benchmark.

I thought it would be important to take this a step further than simple "top-10s" as is usually discussed because there are some great players who came close to the top-10 numerous times and there are some sketchy players who may have made the top-10, or even top-5 twice, and never made the top-20 again. Better sample size, better results. The downside to this is that there could be some players who just missed the top-20 by a goal or two on a number of occasions and this wuld not reflect that. But, you have to draw the line somewhere and finishing 21st-25th is not really impressive anyway.

In total, 99 seasons of top-level pro hockey are counted. All ties are counted as they are. A five-way tie for 10th means that there are 14 players in the top-10. Of course, it means you only need one more player to round out the top-15 as well.

I also thought that it would only be prudent of me to take this right back to the start of the NHA in the 1910 season, rather than consider the NHL the start of hockey - it's not. From 1910 through 1926 there were two, and sometimes three top-level leagues and it would be unfair to players of the post-1926 era to consider their post-consolidation accomplishments at the same level as one who played in a half-league in, say, 1919. So I went over the leaderboards of the OPHL (1910-1911), NHA (1910-1917), PCHA (1912-1924) and WCHL/WHL (1922-1926) and constructed a simulated consolidated top-20 goalscorers list based on the actual stats of those leagues. This was not done just with raw numbers but intuitively based on what I have learned about all these early players and the telltale signs about the strengths of each of these leagues over the years. For example, the 1910 and 1911 OPHL was weak compared to the NHA, and they only had two players who I considered top-10 in hockey in 1910 and none in 1911. In some seasons the PCHA had just 7 of the top-20 scorers; in others they had 12. When the WCHL came around there was one season (1922) where none of their players were a top-5 scorer in hockey, but then they got stronger and saw 6 players make the leaderboard in 1923 and 1924, and then were virtually dead even with the NHL in 1925 and 1926. As I said, this was done intuitively and to the best of my abilities - I'm not interested in debating the merits of the system. It was done subjectively, with objectivity in mind, if that makes any sense.
Most times top-10 in goals:
# Name Career Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
41 Frank Fredrickson 1920-1931 1 3 6 6 7
45 Frank Foyston 1912-1928 0 3 6 6 7
50 Mickey MacKay 1914-1930 2 3 5 7 10
51 Fred Taylor 1907-1923 1 5 5 5 5
53 Gordon Roberts 1909-1920 1 3 5 8 8
65 Harry Hyland 1908-1918 0 2 5 7 7
73 Duke Keats 1915-1929 0 0 5 7 8
90 Tommy Dunderdale 1906-1924 0 3 4 9 11

Most times top-10 in assists
# Name Career Top-2 Top-5 Top-10 Top-15 Top-20
23 Fred Taylor 1907-1923 6 7 7 8 8
40 Frank Fredrickson 1920-1931 1 5 6 6 7
42 Mickey MacKay 1914-1930 1 4 6 6 9
45 Duke Keats 1915-1929 1 1 6 7 8
76 Eddie Gerard 1907-1923 1 4 4 6 7
84 Harry Cameron 1912-1926 1 2 4 4 5
122 Tommy Dunderdale 1906-1924 0 1 3 5 6
143 Frank Foyston 1912-1928 0 0 3 3 4

I hope this data and the players chosen to compare statistically to Taylor are relevant.

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Old
08-13-2009, 03:37 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Terry Sawchuk vs Glenn Hall.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/html/...onep197504.htm

Glenn Hall's comments about Terry Sawchuk are very revealing.
Sorry, but I don't get your point. Hall thought Sawchuk was the best goalkeeper based on what he saw including the time they were on the same team, which isn't that surprising.

But you ignore Hall's strong play during his later career and his contribution to the 1968-69 Vezina. At that time he was sharing the job as starting goaltender with Plante, a goalie which I believe you rank quite high. So why won't you give Hall any respect?

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08-13-2009, 07:07 AM
  #117
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Again.....................

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Originally Posted by Shirtless Joe View Post
Sorry, but I don't get your point. Hall thought Sawchuk was the best goalkeeper based on what he saw including the time they were on the same team, which isn't that surprising.

But you ignore Hall's strong play during his later career and his contribution to the 1968-69 Vezina. At that time he was sharing the job as starting goaltender with Plante, a goalie which I believe you rank quite high. So why won't you give Hall any respect?
I do not ignore Hall's strong play. I have a clear and distinct appreciation of it. Taking your 1968-69 Vezina Trophy contribution as the starting point. Hall and Plante virtually split the goaltending duties during the regular season with a 41 - 37 edge in games to Hall but Plante had a better GAA < 2.00. In the playoffs Plante won eight straight as the Blues swept the first two rounds, then both goalies lost 2 each to the Canadiens in the final. So Plante was the major contributor.

At the age of 37 - same as Hall in 1969, Terry Sawchuk shared goaltending duties,playing the most games with the best record, with Johnny Bower and Bruce Gamble in Toronto. Then he lead the surprising Leafs to the Stanley Cup playing 10 of the 12 playoff games.

Stanley Cup > Vezina.

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Old
08-13-2009, 09:22 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
I do not ignore Hall's strong play. I have a clear and distinct appreciation of it. Taking your 1968-69 Vezina Trophy contribution as the starting point. Hall and Plante virtually split the goaltending duties during the regular season with a 41 - 37 edge in games to Hall but Plante had a better GAA < 2.00. In the playoffs Plante won eight straight as the Blues swept the first two rounds, then both goalies lost 2 each to the Canadiens in the final. So Plante was the major contributor.

At the age of 37 - same as Hall in 1969, Terry Sawchuk shared goaltending duties,playing the most games with the best record, with Johnny Bower and Bruce Gamble in Toronto. Then he lead the surprising Leafs to the Stanley Cup playing 10 of the 12 playoff games.

Stanley Cup > Vezina.
More cup counting I see. I do see some argument for it in the case of goalies as that to me is the one position that can possibly be held accountable for winning or losing a cup. I assume that if Plante won the CS in 68-69 you would think that is a big plus but since Hall won it it is a pity vote. Obviously the CS voters disagreed with you & picked Hall.

A lot of people seem to be dropping Hall down this time round & I really don't see the logic. I have sawchuk/Hall 1/2 in this round & don't think either is far off Plante.

Sure Hall's team only won one cup but Plante won his cups playing on the deepest team in history whereas Chicago was never as deep in talent as Montreal & Toronto. Also, Chicago tended to overwork Hall & their other star players during the regular season as they wanted to end their first place jinx. Their first 1st place finish in history was in 67.

IMO opinion Plante was never the difference maker in his cup wins but Hall certainly was in 61. Beating Montreal in the semi-finals that year was a huge upset & Hall shutout Montreal in the 5th & 6th games to win the series.

As far as regular season awards go, Hall almost always beat out Plante for first AS even though Plante played on the better team.

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08-13-2009, 10:04 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Without Gretzky and Lemieux, Messier would have 2 Art Rosses and 3 Harts (links provided up thread).
I believe it's quite debatable that Messier would have won an Art Ross in the 1986-1987 season over Kurri. I made this point in the thread you linked above but I felt that Hockey Outsider in that otherwise wonderful study of his took too much off Kurri by removing Gretzky and did not factor in the account that Kurri and Coffey would place much higher in Hart voting should Gretzky be removed.

After all, just taking a look at the two seasons without Gretzky, Kurri was pretty much on Messier's level. His 1988-1989 campaign isn't too far off Messier's Hart winning season the next year.

I will also point out that on Messier's Hart record I have two maybe controversial opinions.

1) The 1990 Hart should never have been as close in the first place that Bourque would have gotten an opportunity to be denied by the journalists (if Messier was to lose the Hart, it would be to Gretzky - maybe Yzerman or Lemieux).

2) I can't understand why Messier was such a unanimous choice in 1992. I felt that season saw the elite players pretty much at the same level. I understand that Messier reinvigorated the Rangers, but Leetch was a huge part of the factor in that, so the carrying the team factor really doesn't explain the landslide victory. On the same token, I don't see why Messier should have been runner up in 1996, but you can get more of an MVP argument there.

That being said, if I were to vote, Messier would certainly be one of my choices to put on top - others being Yzerman and Jagr. Just one of the best players I ever got to witness play.

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08-13-2009, 10:10 AM
  #120
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Quote:
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I believe it's quite debatable that Messier would have won an Art Ross in the 1986-1987 season over Kurri. I made this point in the thread you linked above but I felt that Hockey Outsider in that otherwise wonderful study of his took too much off Kurri by removing Gretzky and did not factor in the account that Kurri and Coffey would place much higher in Hart voting should Gretzky be removed.

After all, just taking a look at the two seasons without Gretzky, Kurri was pretty much on Messier's level. His 1988-1989 campaign isn't too far off Messier's Hart winning season the next year.

I will also point out that on Messier's Hart record I have two maybe controversial opinions.

1) The 1990 Hart should never have been as close in the first place that Bourque would have gotten an opportunity to be denied by the journalists (if Messier was to lose the Hart, it would be to Gretzky - maybe Yzerman or Lemieux).

2) I can't understand why Messier was such a unanimous choice in 1992. I felt that season saw the elite players pretty much at the same level. I understand that Messier reinvigorated the Rangers, but Leetch was a huge part of the factor in that, so the carrying the team factor really doesn't explain the landslide victory. On the same token, I don't see why Messier should have been runner up in 1996, but you can get more of an MVP argument there.

That being said, if I were to vote, Messier would certainly be one of my choices to put on top - others being Yzerman and Jagr. Just one of the best players I ever got to witness play.
Bourque certainly deserved the Hart that season. It was the best two way season from a defenseman since Orr. Team carrying


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-13-2009 at 10:19 AM.
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08-13-2009, 10:48 AM
  #121
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Quote:
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Current thinking:
23. Valeri Kharlamov - best Russian ever by wide opinon. Voted Soviet MVP of the 70s.
Wide opinion? I'm not so sure about that.

The Hockey News had him 3rd, behind Fetisov and Tretiak.
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ts/rutop10.htm

The IIHF had him 6th for Olympics and 4th for World Championships.
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm
WC poll posted in an earlier post.

Russian media 'Athletes of the Century' survey results from 2000 have Tretiak ahead of Kharlamov.
- Top 10 Russian Athletes of the 20th Century: Tretiak 3rd, Kharlamov 5th.
- Top 10 World Athletes of the 20th Century: Tretiak 9th, Kharlamov DNP
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...ry/ru20vek.htm

There wasn't a 'Soviet MVP of the '70's' vote. Kharlamov simply compiled the most Soviet MVP votes during that decade.. but, Tretiak and Fetisov continued to be strong in garnering MVP votes into the '80's and eventually (along with Makarov) surpassed Kharlamov's MVP totals.

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08-13-2009, 10:54 AM
  #122
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I agree with Pappy. I think Hall is getting underrated here & definitely deserves a spot in the top thirty.

- Hall was named the best goalie in the league seven times during his career, more than any other goalie in history, including Hasek. When Hall played the Vezina was the equivalent of the modern day Jennings trophy, a statistical award, but he was named to the first all-star team seven times in a thirteen year span. Eleven times in fourteen years he was named either the best or second best goalie in the league.

- Hall finished in the top six in Hart trophy voting seven times during his career (1958, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1966), which is far more support than Sawchuk, Bower and even Plante ever received.

- Hall was one of the most durable goalies in NHL history, starting 502 consecutive games.

- Some find save percentage meaningless while others consider if the single most relevant goalie stat. I think there's at least some value in it. There's a fascinating analysis of Original Six save percentage in the Society for International Hockey Research Journal ("Kings of the Crease" by Iain Fyffe, 2003). From 1956 to 1966 (the years covered in the study), it's showed that Glen Hall has four of the top ten single seasons in terms of save percentage. Hall's cumulative save percentage over that period is only marginally lower than Plante's (90.7% vs 90.8%) despite the fact that Hall obviously played behind a weaker defense. Both are well ahead of Sawchuk and Worsley (though behind Bower).

On the basis of his personal success, combining dominance and longevity, awards and stats, I actually think one could argue that Hall was the greatest regular season goalie ever. He struggled in the playoffs at times, which keeps him out of the top twenty, but I think he should still be in the top thirty.

- Still, Hall has a Conn Smythe trophy for dragging the 1968 St. Louis Blues (3rd lowest scoring team in the regular season) to the Stanley Cup finals, and statistically appears to have been the best goalie by every relevant measure when the Hawks won the Stanley Cup in 1961. You can make a reasonable case that Hall deserve the Smythe in 1961 (had it been awarded there) -- he shut out the Habs, by far the highest scoring regular season team, in the last two games of the first round, then helped limit Howe's wings to 12 goals in six finals games). I concede Hall is weaker in the postseason than Plante and Sawchuk, but is that enough to keep him out of the top thirty?


Last edited by Hockey Outsider: 08-13-2009 at 11:01 AM.
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Old
08-13-2009, 11:18 AM
  #123
BM67
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Sawchuk-Plante-Hall Era

From the Hockey Compendium

SV%
54-55
Hall 59-61 .967
Plante 1367-1476 .926
Sawchuk 1659-1791 .926
Average 11339-12393 .915
55-56
Plante 1551-160 .929
Hall 1729-1876 .922
Sawchuk 1847-2024 .913
Average 11549-12600 .917
56-57
Hall 1971-2127 .927
Sawchuk 939-1020 .921
Plante 1395-1517 .920
Average 11418-12532 .911
57-58
Plante 1411-1530 .922
Hall 1990-2190 .909
Sawchuk 1992-2197 .907
Average 11759-12926 .910
58-59
Plante 1777-1921 .925
Sawchuk 1807-2009 .899
Hall 1821-2029 .897
Average 11547-12748 .906
59-60
Hall 2004-2184 .918
Plante 1875-2050 .915
Sawchuk 1539-1695 .908
Average 11996-13224 .907
60-61
Hall 2020-2196 .920
Plante 1081-1193 .906
Sawchuk 999-1111 .899
Average 122297-13539 .908
61-62
Plante 1978-2144 .923
Hall 1941-2126 .913
Sawchuk 1111-1252 .887
Average 12019-13275 .906
62-63
Hall 1792-1958 .915
Sawchuk 1226-1343 .913
Plante 1440-1578 .913
Average 12189-13425
63-64
Hall 1950-2098 .929
Sawchuk 1518-1656 .917
Plante 2222-2442 .910
Average 12597-13750 .916
64-65
Hall 1169-1268 .922
Sawchuk 979-1071 .914
Plante 1007-1116 .902
Average 11828-13023 .908
65-66
Hall 1810-1974 .917
Sawchuk 756-830 .911
Average 11927-13187 .904
66-67
Hall 772-838 .921
Sawchuk 756-822 .920
Average 12128-13370 .907
70-71
Plante 1192-1265 .942
Hall 772-843 .916
Average 30686-33963 .904
Totals
Plante 17104-18637 .918
Hall 21029-22926 .917
Sawchuk 17128-18821 .910

Playoffs
52
Sawchuk 224-229 .978
53
Plante 84-91 .923
Sawchuk 119-140 .850
54
Sawchuk 314-334 .940
Plante 193-207 .932
55
Sawchuk 281-307 .905
Plante 310-341 .909
56
Plante 213-231 .922
Hall 279-307 .909
57
Plante 249-266 .936
Hall 114-129 .884
58
Plante 299-319 .937
Sawchuk 118-137 .861
59
Hall 212-233 .910
Plante 270-297 .909
60
Plante 211-222 .950
Sawchuk 169-188 .899
Hall 120-134 .896
61
Hall 377-403 .935
Sawchuk 209-227 .921
Plante 164-180 .911
62
Hall 376-407 .924
Plante 177-196 .903
63
Plante 126-140 .900
Hall 213-238 .895
Sawchuk 289-324 .892
64
Sawchuk 323-354 .912
Hall 206-228 .904
65
Hall 359-387 .928
Sawchuk 36-39 .923
66
Sawchuk 66-72 .926
Hall 162-184 .880
67
Sawchuk 350-375 .933
Hall 94-102 .922
68
Hall 512-557 .919
Sawchuk 121-139 .871
69
Plante 258-272 .949
Hall 65-70 .929
70
Plante 117-125 .936
Hall 202-223 .906
Sawchuk 51-57 .895
71
Plante 67-73 .918
Hall 57-66 .864
72
Plante 22-27 .815
73
Plante 53-63 .841
Totals
Plante 2813-3050 .922
Sawchuk 2670-2922 .914
Hall 3348-3668 .913

All-star voting (1st & 2nd only 51-67)
50-51
Terry Sawchuk, Det 70 (10-6-2)
Chuck Rayner, NYR 40 (5-3-6)
51-52
Terry Sawchuk, Det 90 (18-0-0)
Jim Henry, Bos 23 (0-7-2)
52-53
Terry Sawchuk, Det 69 (10-6-1)
Gerry McNeil, Mtl 57 (8-5-2)
53-54
Harry Lumley, Tor 127
Terry Sawchuk, Det 95
54-55
Harry Lumley, Tor 152
Terry Sawchuk, Det 128
55-56
Jacques Plante, Mtl 119
Glenn Hall, Det 84
56-57
Glenn Hall, Det 121
Jacques Plante, Mtl 85
57-58
Glenn Hall, Chi 108
Jacques Plante, Mtl 104
58-59
Jacques Plante, Mtl 145
Terry Sawchuk, Det 98
59-60
Glenn Hall, Chi 106 (22-84)
Jacques Plante, Mtl 105 (68-37)
60-61
Johnny Bower, Tor 156 (84-72)
Glenn Hall, Chi 113
61-62
Jacques Plante, Mtl 157
Glenn Hall, Chi 86
62-63
Glenn Hall, Chi 142
Terry Sawchuk, Det 76
63-64
Glenn Hall, Chi 132 (88-44)
Charlie Hodge, Mtl 97 (23-74)
64-65
Roger Crozier, Det 157 (67-90)
Charlie Hodge, Mtl 79 (72-7)
65-66
Glenn Hall, Chi 144 (84-60)
Gump Worsley, Mtl 85 (18-67)
66-67
Ed Giacomin, NYR 149 (90-59)
Glenn Hall, Chi 62 (27-35)
67-68
Gump Worsley, Mtl 55 (24-31)
Ed Giacomin, NYR 41 (5-36)
Glenn Hall, St L 4th 24 (11-13)
Terry Sawchuk, LA T11th 2 (0-2)
68-69
Glenn Hall, St L 115
Ed Giacomin, NYR 102
Jacques Plante, St L 3rd 61
69-70
Tony Esposito, Chi 180
Ed Giacomin, NYR 81
Jacques Plante, St L 3rd 28
70-71
Ed Giacomin, NYR 157
Jacques Plante, Tor 111
Glenn Hall, St L T6th 1

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08-13-2009, 11:46 AM
  #124
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post

As far as regular season awards go, Hall almost always beat out Plante for first AS even though Plante played on the better team.
This is a little misleading:

Plante was never a first or second team all star after his Hart year in 61-62, when he got the First Team All Star.

In 62-63, he was shipped to the Rangers and was no longer a threat.

This is who Hall beat out for his First Team All Stars:

From 56-61, many considered Plante a product of Harvey, yet he was Hall's only real competition. The only other showing until 1961 was a 2nd place finish by post-peak Sawchuk:

1956
1. Plante
2. Hall

1957
1. Hall
2. Plante

1958
1. Hall
2. Plante

1959
1. Plante
2. Sawchuk

1960
1. Hall
2. Plante

In 1961, Bower won, and in 1962, Plante won the Hart and 1st Team without Harvey:
1961
1. Bower
2. Plante

1962
1. Plante
2. Hall

From 1963-69 on, Plante was no longer competition. This is when Hall got 4/7 First Team nods.
1963:
1. Hall
2. Sawchuk

1964:
1. Hall
2. Hodge

1965:
1. Crozier
2. Hodge

1966:
1. Hall
2. Worsley

1967:
1. Giacomin
2. Hall

1968:
1. Worsley
2. Giacomin

1969:
1. Hall
2. Giacomin

I would argue that playing behind Doug Harvey probably hurt Plante in All Star voting, as many people thought he was a product of Harvey until Harvey left and Plante suddenly won the Hart. It definitely hurt him in Hart voting; I don't see why it would help him in All Star voting. Obviously playing for a team so pathetic that it really hurts your stats isn't going to help your record, but I don't think Chicago was ever that.

Hall did get 7 First Team nods and he does deserve credit for that. But to say he got them while competing against Plante and Sawchuk is misleading. Sawchuk was post-peak and was rarely competive during this time. 4/7 of the nods were after Plante ceased being a threat - the other 3/7 were when Plante was playing behind Doug Harvey, which was perhaps a handicap ifor him in the voting, perhaps not.

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08-13-2009, 12:16 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Hall did get 7 First Team nods and he does deserve credit for that. But to say he got them while competing against Plante and Sawchuk is misleading. Sawchuk was post-peak and was rarely competive during this time. 4/7 of the nods were after Plante ceased being a threat - the other 3/7 were when Plante was playing behind Doug Harvey, which was perhaps a handicap ifor him in the voting, perhaps not.
How is that misleading? Hall was competing against Plante and Sawchuk, and he beat them. If you consider Sawchuk so bad that it was easy to beat him in awards voting, then that's not exactly making a case for Sawchuk as a top-25 player. Hall was also competing against Johnny Bower and Gump Worsley, two Hall of Famers who were pretty good goalies as well.

As far as the "Plante was on the Rangers excuse", Glenn Hall was named the First Team All-Star goalie in 1958 on a Chicago team that missed the playoffs and went 24-39-7. How did he do that if playing on a bad team meant you had no chance at the award?

Are there any quotes from back then to support your theory that Doug Harvey hurt Jacques Plante in All-Star voting? Given that the Vezina Trophy winner was very often the same guy as the First All-Star goalie, I'd say that the bias was almost certainly against Hall. And he still won 7 First Team All-Stars. It's possible to argue his playoff performances, but his regular season record is very, very strong.

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