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Old
08-15-2009, 04:46 PM
  #26
It Kills Me
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Demitra won't get as much as Ponikarovsky @ trade deadline, and by summer he'd be dumped.

Raymond is a filler and we can get probably get a 3rd or 4th round pick for Van Ryn anyways.

Doesn't really make sense from a Leafs POV.

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08-15-2009, 05:14 PM
  #27
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The leafs need prospects, if that isn't too much to ask for. How about Schroeder if hes available?

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08-15-2009, 05:25 PM
  #28
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The leafs need prospects, if that isn't too much to ask for. How about Schroeder if hes available?
I'm sure he would be, for something that the Canucks actually need... Van Ryn and Ponikarovsky isn't... and I wouldn't deal Schroeder for White either.

I really don't see the fit here between these teams... the type of dmen that the Leafs want to move, there are better options still in FA... no point in giving up good assets from a Canuck POV.

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08-15-2009, 06:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I'm sure he would be, for something that the Canucks actually need... Van Ryn and Ponikarovsky isn't... and I wouldn't deal Schroeder for White either.

I really don't see the fit here between these teams... the type of dmen that the Leafs want to move, there are better options still in FA... no point in giving up good assets from a Canuck POV.
Right now id rate Jordan Schroeder in the top 5, if not the top 3 of vancouver prospects.
im not saying i wouldnt trade him for a top 10 type player. but lets be realistic here.
id honestly want a return of a tier 2 roster player, and a prospect in return.

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08-15-2009, 11:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The Leafinator View Post
Counter Offer:

To Van
Finger+3rd

To TOR
Hodgson
Is this Toronto trying to give Vancouver the Finger? If so, why would the Leafs include a 3rd?

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Old
08-16-2009, 12:14 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ace88 View Post
What the **** are the Leafs going to do with Demitra? We're a rebuilding team, Demitra means absolutely zero to us, and Poni is still very valuable to us because of how he's mentoring Kulemin and Grabo. Toronto says no, Vancouver says no, addresses neither team's needs, a very poor proposal overall.
Trade him at the deadline?

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08-16-2009, 12:14 AM
  #32
mikeswright49
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Is this Toronto trying to give Vancouver the Finger? If so, why would the Leafs include a 3rd?
the third is a bribe so that the canucks dont run to mommy bettman and tattle that the leafs have been making obscene jestures, and have the leafs fined a 4th rounder

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Old
08-16-2009, 12:15 AM
  #33
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I wouldn't call Poni "great" but yeah he does tend to get underrated - by non-Leaffans. He's decent. Canucks need healthy puck moving defenseman more than forwards at the moment though. Van Ryn isn't that.

In his years in Florida, Van Ryn was a solid #2 guy, played well over 20 minutes a game and put up nearly 40 points. The various posts and depth charts floating around showing him as a #7 or 8 guy on the leafs or on the Marlies are bizarre.

When healthy, he's arguably the best puck-mover on the Leafs save for Kaberle, has a hard and low point shot for the PP, plays physically and makes good decisions in his own end. Recall that this was a player drafted in the First Round by a team with an excellent record of drafting and developing defensemen.

In Florida, he had two seasons where he really looked to be living up to his draft position/profile before nagging and serious injuries began slowing him down. We're talking about a guy who, in spite of a lot of injuries has scored at about a .36 PPG pace. Compare that to Kubina, who had his best seasons in Toronto and has a career PPG of about .41. He's no slouch.

Hard to blame him for the injuries that happened last year, they both came from dirty hits and thats something that happened too much on a leafs team that was used to someone out there sticking up for them.

This year will be different and i think MVR makes the top 6 and does duty on the 2nd PP unit and some PK time as well.

Neither team makes this deal as the leafs are not getting back anything they really need in PD and the nucks always seem to overrate their prospects to the point that they are untouchable by most fans on here. but all teams are guilty of that i guess.

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Old
08-16-2009, 09:28 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MattyMontana View Post
In his years in Florida, Van Ryn was a solid #2 guy, played well over 20 minutes a game and put up nearly 40 points. The various posts and depth charts floating around showing him as a #7 or 8 guy on the leafs or on the Marlies are bizarre.

When healthy, he's arguably the best puck-mover on the Leafs save for Kaberle, has a hard and low point shot for the PP, plays physically and makes good decisions in his own end. Recall that this was a player drafted in the First Round by a team with an excellent record of drafting and developing defensemen.

In Florida, he had two seasons where he really looked to be living up to his draft position/profile before nagging and serious injuries began slowing him down. We're talking about a guy who, in spite of a lot of injuries has scored at about a .36 PPG pace. Compare that to Kubina, who had his best seasons in Toronto and has a career PPG of about .41. He's no slouch.

Hard to blame him for the injuries that happened last year, they both came from dirty hits and thats something that happened too much on a leafs team that was used to someone out there sticking up for them.

This year will be different and i think MVR makes the top 6 and does duty on the 2nd PP unit and some PK time as well.

Neither team makes this deal as the leafs are not getting back anything they really need in PD and the nucks always seem to overrate their prospects to the point that they are untouchable by most fans on here. but all teams are guilty of that i guess.
Great Post.

I think Van Ryn tends to be underrated by Leaf fans aswell. Everyone looks at the injuries and thinks he sucks, but fails to realize that when he was in the lineup last year, he was by far our BEST defenceman -- Kaberle, Kubina, White & Schenn included. He problably won't make the top 4 simply based on having Kaberle-Komisarek and Beauchemin-Schenn, who are either younger or better than him, but he'd be the best 3rd pair defenceman in the league. Throw him out there with Finger and you've got what would be a very good 2nd pair as your 3rd pair.

Everyone seems to assume that because we got Exelby, and Burke/RW are big fans of white, doesn't mean they will displace better players.

Right now, the leafs depth chart of non-top4ers is this:

Van Ryn
Finger
White
Exelby
Frogren

Might aswell forget Frogren as he'll problably move to the AHL. Priority #1 is problably to move Finger and get White & Van Ryn as the 3rd pair (and 2nd PP unit). If that doesn't happen, the Leafs should only consider moving Van Ryn IF the return is right. For Van Ryn, the return would likely have to be something conditional upon games played.... something along the lines of 2nd Rounder + mid-level prospect (in vancouver's case Rodin or Ellington) for 60+ games. Less than than that would be that same prospect plus a 4th rounder. Why this makes sense? If Van Ryn stays healthy, Rodin + 2nd rounder is an absolute steal for him. If he doesn't stay healthy, Rodin + 4th Rounder is an OK price to pay for 40 games.


Last edited by seanlinden: 08-16-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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Old
08-16-2009, 09:54 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by MattyMontana View Post
In his years in Florida, Van Ryn was a solid #2 guy, played well over 20 minutes a game and put up nearly 40 points. The various posts and depth charts floating around showing him as a #7 or 8 guy on the leafs or on the Marlies are bizarre.

When healthy, he's arguably the best puck-mover on the Leafs save for Kaberle, has a hard and low point shot for the PP, plays physically and makes good decisions in his own end. Recall that this was a player drafted in the First Round by a team with an excellent record of drafting and developing defensemen.

In Florida, he had two seasons where he really looked to be living up to his draft position/profile before nagging and serious injuries began slowing him down. We're talking about a guy who, in spite of a lot of injuries has scored at about a .36 PPG pace. Compare that to Kubina, who had his best seasons in Toronto and has a career PPG of about .41. He's no slouch.

Hard to blame him for the injuries that happened last year, they both came from dirty hits and thats something that happened too much on a leafs team that was used to someone out there sticking up for them.

This year will be different and i think MVR makes the top 6 and does duty on the 2nd PP unit and some PK time as well.

Neither team makes this deal as the leafs are not getting back anything they really need in PD and the nucks always seem to overrate their prospects to the point that they are untouchable by most fans on here. but all teams are guilty of that i guess.
THANK YOU. I've been saying this, and I agree 100%.

Mike Van Ryn played about 20 healthy games last saeson.... and impressed me a LOT. He has a good shot, he has good speed, he plays well defensively. You can't ask more from a guy like him. He's still got 5-6 years left in him too.

I would like to see something along the lines of:
Kaberle-Komisarek
Beauchemin-Schenn
Exelby-Van Ryn

And White plays forward until someone gets injured.

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Old
08-16-2009, 10:54 AM
  #36
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Come on, don't be ridiculous.
Really. Now if we remove the 3rd....

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:03 AM
  #37
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and the nucks always seem to overrate their prospects to the point that they are untouchable by most fans on here.
Yes Canuckfans are irrational about not dealing the few decent prospects they have for one year rentals. I tell you they're insane!

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Hard to blame him for the injuries that happened last year, they both came from dirty hits and thats something that happened too much on a leafs team that was used to someone out there sticking up for them.
So the major injuries he suffered the past two seasons won't have any lasting effects? Can you say that with decent certainty? He's 30 years old - so major injuries in the immediate past do play a big factor in a decision.

I never said he wasn't a decent puck moving defenseman - only that there is a risk whether he can regain his former level of performance. The Canucks already have an injury prone defenseman - that is why I wouldn't take the risk in acquiring Van Ryn. Now if he was a UFA, that's another story alltogether.

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Everyone looks at the injuries and thinks he sucks, but fails to realize that when he was in the lineup last year, he was by far our BEST defenceman.
meh, who cares. Salo has been the best overall defensemen for the Canucks - problem is, he's hardly ever healthy.

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Mike Van Ryn played about 20 healthy games last saeson
And about 20 healthy games the season before.

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Old
08-16-2009, 11:34 AM
  #38
NFITO
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Originally Posted by MattyMontana View Post
In his years in Florida, Van Ryn was a solid #2 guy, played well over 20 minutes a game and put up nearly 40 points. The various posts and depth charts floating around showing him as a #7 or 8 guy on the leafs or on the Marlies are bizarre.

When healthy, he's arguably the best puck-mover on the Leafs save for Kaberle, has a hard and low point shot for the PP, plays physically and makes good decisions in his own end. Recall that this was a player drafted in the First Round by a team with an excellent record of drafting and developing defensemen.

In Florida, he had two seasons where he really looked to be living up to his draft position/profile before nagging and serious injuries began slowing him down. We're talking about a guy who, in spite of a lot of injuries has scored at about a .36 PPG pace. Compare that to Kubina, who had his best seasons in Toronto and has a career PPG of about .41. He's no slouch.

Hard to blame him for the injuries that happened last year, they both came from dirty hits and thats something that happened too much on a leafs team that was used to someone out there sticking up for them.

This year will be different and i think MVR makes the top 6 and does duty on the 2nd PP unit and some PK time as well.

Neither team makes this deal as the leafs are not getting back anything they really need in PD and the nucks always seem to overrate their prospects to the point that they are untouchable by most fans on here. but all teams are guilty of that i guess.
I'm confused why it's so difficult for people to understand why the Canucks would have no interest in a guy like Van Ryn??

Let me try and explain it one more time, since it seems instead of addressing the *real* reason people are throwing out their own reasons in an attempt to make Canuck fans sound like biased homers who don't understand the value of their - or other teams - assets!

Simple question here - what are the chances that Van Ryn's injury history is past him and he won't suffer any injuries next year, at any higher of a chance than the average dman out there? I understand that injuries happen, and you can't control them - especially when they come off dirty hits which you can't blame the victim for. But is there any logical explanation that could convince us that a guy that has only played in 27 games last year and only in 47 games over the past 2 years now, would have no higher risk of injuries - or having those concussions return - than the average defender in the game.

This is my concern with Van Ryn, and why IMO he's not worth even a marginal prospect from the Canucks, and not one of those guys that we homers like to overrate!!

Is this point understandable? Can Leaf fans actually understand now why the Canucks are a team that would have no interest in a guy like Van Ryn?

And we're not just talking about any team here either... I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would take that chance on a good player like Van Ryn. We're talking about a team that has no #6 dman right now. A team who's best options for injury call-ups are Aaron Rome and Lawrence Nycholat! A team that has no young player in the minors that can be relied on to come up to cover for injuries. And a team that is already carrying an injury-prone dman in Salo, who plays a key role already as the team's top right side dman - the same position that Van Ryn plays.

So putting some logical sense into this - do Canuck fans not want Van Ryn because they are overrating their own prospects and undervaluing the stud of a dman that Van Ryn is - or is there some logic to a team that has no defensive depth to begin with, already carrying an injury-prone right side dman as one of their only 5 NHL capable players, just simply couldn't take the risk of adding another injury-risk like Van Ryn to the fold!

I know Canuck fans have said this already a million times, but instead of actually considering the REAL REASON why there's no interest in Van Ryn, you guys seem just think we are all homers that overvalue our own assets and can't understand the brilliance that Van Ryn is... that isn't the case. And unless you can provide a convincing argument why Van Ryn is no more risk to injury than any other player that we can acquire to fill that remaining spot in our starting 6 on defense, I'd hope you finally understand why Van Ryn to Vancouver does not make sense! Again, PPG paces and what he's like when he's healthy is completely irrelevant to this discussion at all... I think most fans realize that Van Ryn is a good player - "when healthy"! the last part though is what the concerns are all about, and why he's not worth even a mid-round pick to a team that simply doesn't have the depth to take on that type of risk!

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08-16-2009, 12:34 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
I'm confused why it's so difficult for people to understand why the Canucks would have no interest in a guy like Van Ryn??

Let me try and explain it one more time, since it seems instead of addressing the *real* reason people are throwing out their own reasons in an attempt to make Canuck fans sound like biased homers who don't understand the value of their - or other teams - assets!

Simple question here - what are the chances that Van Ryn's injury history is past him and he won't suffer any injuries next year, at any higher of a chance than the average dman out there? I understand that injuries happen, and you can't control them - especially when they come off dirty hits which you can't blame the victim for. But is there any logical explanation that could convince us that a guy that has only played in 27 games last year and only in 47 games over the past 2 years now, would have no higher risk of injuries - or having those concussions return - than the average defender in the game.

This is my concern with Van Ryn, and why IMO he's not worth even a marginal prospect from the Canucks, and not one of those guys that we homers like to overrate!!

Is this point understandable? Can Leaf fans actually understand now why the Canucks are a team that would have no interest in a guy like Van Ryn?

And we're not just talking about any team here either... I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would take that chance on a good player like Van Ryn. We're talking about a team that has no #6 dman right now. A team who's best options for injury call-ups are Aaron Rome and Lawrence Nycholat! A team that has no young player in the minors that can be relied on to come up to cover for injuries. And a team that is already carrying an injury-prone dman in Salo, who plays a key role already as the team's top right side dman - the same position that Van Ryn plays.

So putting some logical sense into this - do Canuck fans not want Van Ryn because they are overrating their own prospects and undervaluing the stud of a dman that Van Ryn is - or is there some logic to a team that has no defensive depth to begin with, already carrying an injury-prone right side dman as one of their only 5 NHL capable players, just simply couldn't take the risk of adding another injury-risk like Van Ryn to the fold!

I know Canuck fans have said this already a million times, but instead of actually considering the REAL REASON why there's no interest in Van Ryn, you guys seem just think we are all homers that overvalue our own assets and can't understand the brilliance that Van Ryn is... that isn't the case. And unless you can provide a convincing argument why Van Ryn is no more risk to injury than any other player that we can acquire to fill that remaining spot in our starting 6 on defense, I'd hope you finally understand why Van Ryn to Vancouver does not make sense! Again, PPG paces and what he's like when he's healthy is completely irrelevant to this discussion at all... I think most fans realize that Van Ryn is a good player - "when healthy"! the last part though is what the concerns are all about, and why he's not worth even a mid-round pick to a team that simply doesn't have the depth to take on that type of risk!
I completely understand where you're coming from, but comments like the one in bold will never sit well with people because they seem too extreme. You're saying he's not even worth a marginal prospect to a team craving a puck-moving defenseman, which seems very contorted when you consider Van Ryn's actual ceiling and potential when he's healthy - "when he's healthy," I'm aware of that crucial contingency.

I realize there are mitigating factors - Salo's health, defensive depth, Van Ryn's injuries - that doubtlessly must influence a team's assesment of a trade. But to a team that appears to be pushing hard for the Stanley Cup in recent years, isn't a player with Van Ryn's actual talent level worth at least a marginal prospect? Do you really think relinquishing a single "marginal" prospect will deplete your depth? Isn't Van Ryn worth the gamble if he adds some serious two-way stability to your back-end, or are you expecting this "marginal" prospect to put you over the top some year?

That's where these accusations of him being "underrated" emanate from. Measuring in terms of potential, he's easily worth more than a marginal prospect or roster player - factoring in his injury history, however, he's probably available at a sizable discount, good news for a team that wants something big but is unwilling to give up anything too significant. Every Canucks proposal I see, the names of Hansen, Raymond, Demitra, and Grabner get thrown around frequently. They probably won't net you the bonafide, proven top-pairing defenseman you're looking for by themselves, without a first round pick or more promising young asset going the other way as well. I can see them returning an Ian White type of second-string defenseman individually, although I'd rather hang onto White.

MattyMontana made an excellent post. I think anyone who watched Van Ryn play last year was impressed. The injuries were unfortunate freak-accidents and cheap shots. If he can string together a few healthy years (which I firmly believe he can), then he's easily worth a "marginal" prospect" at the very least. Until we acquired Komisarek and Beuchemin I was dead-set on keeping him, because he merits his salary and top-four minutes when he's on the ice.

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Old
08-16-2009, 01:26 PM
  #40
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Every Canucks proposal I see, the names of Hansen, Raymond, Demitra, and Grabner get thrown around frequently.
As to the first two players, it's a case of the waivers issue. Both of them have to clear waivers if they're sent down (a good chance given the logjam of players in the bottom nine). No different that the Leafs unloading Stralman for seemingly marginal return (yeah, they got a 2nd round pick but they also had to take a salary dump as well lowering the overall value of the package they got). Stralman (unless I'm mistaken) also had to clear waivers if sent down (which in his case was an even more likely possibility given the number of defensemen the Leafs have signed to one-way deals). All three players would get easily picked off of waivers.

Quote:
I realize there are mitigating factors - Salo's health, defensive depth, Van Ryn's injuries - that doubtlessly must influence a team's assesment of a trade. But to a team that appears to be pushing hard for the Stanley Cup in recent years, isn't a player with Van Ryn's actual talent level worth at least a marginal prospect? Do you really think relinquishing a single "marginal" prospect will deplete your depth? Isn't Van Ryn worth the gamble if he adds some serious two-way stability to your back-end, or are you expecting this "marginal" prospect to put you over the top some year?
I would take that chance (for a marginal prospect); I could see where others wouldn't. Reason? It eliminates any remaining cap space we have left. Sure you can always try and acquire one during the regular season if Ryn gets hurt again - but at that point, you (the GM) will be dealing from a position of weakness (and likely will have to pay even more than otherwise).

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08-16-2009, 02:16 PM
  #41
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I would take that chance (for a marginal prospect); I could see where others wouldn't. Reason? It eliminates any remaining cap space we have left. Sure you can always try and acquire one during the regular season if Ryn gets hurt again - but at that point, you (the GM) will be dealing from a position of weakness (and likely will have to pay even more than otherwise).
Yeah it's not that the marginal prospect has more value than Van Ryn it's just the cap space being taken on for a player that has a good chance of not playing.

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08-16-2009, 02:38 PM
  #42
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Yeah it's not that the marginal prospect has more value than Van Ryn it's just the cap space being taken on for a player that has a good chance of not playing.
I don't think you can sit there and say that he has a very poor chance of playing this season. He has had the summer to make sure that he is in tip top shape. The whole team has been under a new training regimen and it's not like his injurys were from being stupid or something like that.

Sometimes you have to go out on a limb a little to pull in a favorable return. I wonder if the tune will be the same when the nucks realize that they would probably have to give up the same or maybe more to another team without a overload of dmen and that will dribve their price up even more then ours.

I'm not saying he is a slamdunk full season guy, he plays too hard to not sit out a game here or there from a minor injury. every player has done it. I would be happy to see him on our third pairing. would make us one of the deepest d corps in the east anyways.

Hey you nuck fans... you want finger instead

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Old
08-16-2009, 03:10 PM
  #43
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I completely understand where you're coming from, but comments like the one in bold will never sit well with people because they seem too extreme. You're saying he's not even worth a marginal prospect to a team craving a puck-moving defenseman, which seems very contorted when you consider Van Ryn's actual ceiling and potential when he's healthy - "when he's healthy," I'm aware of that crucial contingency.

I realize there are mitigating factors - Salo's health, defensive depth, Van Ryn's injuries - that doubtlessly must influence a team's assesment of a trade. But to a team that appears to be pushing hard for the Stanley Cup in recent years, isn't a player with Van Ryn's actual talent level worth at least a marginal prospect? Do you really think relinquishing a single "marginal" prospect will deplete your depth? Isn't Van Ryn worth the gamble if he adds some serious two-way stability to your back-end, or are you expecting this "marginal" prospect to put you over the top some year?

That's where these accusations of him being "underrated" emanate from. Measuring in terms of potential, he's easily worth more than a marginal prospect or roster player - factoring in his injury history, however, he's probably available at a sizable discount, good news for a team that wants something big but is unwilling to give up anything too significant. Every Canucks proposal I see, the names of Hansen, Raymond, Demitra, and Grabner get thrown around frequently. They probably won't net you the bonafide, proven top-pairing defenseman you're looking for by themselves, without a first round pick or more promising young asset going the other way as well. I can see them returning an Ian White type of second-string defenseman individually, although I'd rather hang onto White.

MattyMontana made an excellent post. I think anyone who watched Van Ryn play last year was impressed. The injuries were unfortunate freak-accidents and cheap shots. If he can string together a few healthy years (which I firmly believe he can), then he's easily worth a "marginal" prospect" at the very least. Until we acquired Komisarek and Beuchemin I was dead-set on keeping him, because he merits his salary and top-four minutes when he's on the ice.
again, you're missing the point. It isn't about what the Canucks have to give up - it's about adding a guy like Van Ryn.

Even if you give up a marginal prospect for him, you've adding Van Ryn as your only addition to a blueline desperately needing depth. There is considerable risk here, even if all you give up is a "marginal prospect" because you are locking up the remaining bit of your cap space - all that you have left - on a risk that a defense without depth, already with an injury prone dman, simply can't afford to take.

I would rather dish that money out to a guy who hasn't gone through that type of injury history - forget the cost it would take to get him. Sign Seidenberg for example... doesn't cost you a thing and will take up the same type of cap space, while giving you a guy who isn't that level of injury risk.

Or sign Eminger... lesser dman, but again the injury risk isn't there, and I'd rather have a bottom pairing Eminger, knowing that I wouldn't have to rely on Rome and Nycholat having to jump in to cover for injuries as much as if we had Van Ryn around.

The only way I'd take a risk on Van Ryn is if the Canucks already have some depth around where they can trust their #7/8 guys coming in to cover for injuries... the Leafs have that kind of situation - the Canucks don't. Or if Van Ryn was making less than $1mill, where you wouldn't have to maximize your cap space, making him the only addition you could make on your defense.

This is why Van Ryn to Vancouver makes no sense at all - not even for a marginal prospect. Because it's not about what you're giving up to get him - it's about using up the remaining bit of your salary cap space to add a guy who's played half a season in his last 2 years combined, while still leaving you with no cap space to add more depth on your blueline, and still leaving you without anyone in the minors you can call up to replace him.

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08-16-2009, 04:21 PM
  #44
WJG
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It's a fair deal, but I don't think Vancouver would have interest in Van Ryn. I think Ian White is the guy they would target, in which case this becomes a whole different trade.

White for Raymond+ seems like a good start, it's anyone's guess what Vancouver would add.

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08-16-2009, 04:29 PM
  #45
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Leafs dont want Raymond. We got enough 3rd liners as it is

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