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Two Deals to Fix Edmonton

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Old
08-16-2009, 01:29 PM
  #101
BigKing
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It would be nice if everyone would stop pimping Penner and, to a lesser extent, Cogiliano as "Heatley Value".

That package that was agreed upon by Ottawa doesn't even get a sniff without Heatley asking to be traded. Notice how nobody has traded for him since then? Like, other teams can't come up with an offer as good? Please. Heatley has all kinds of red flags and Ottawa was going to have to TAKE Penner's contract to unload Heatley. I'm not saying Penner is completely useless, but let's be real here Edmonton fans: you've seen him play and you know that he would never be the centerpiece of a deal for a non-drama Heatley.

Let me tell you this, If LA had offered Handzus, Simmonds and Quincey for Heatley back on June 30th then Heatley would be a King. I'm also not going to sit here and say any of those guys are as good as Heatley as some Oiler fans have been implying in regards to Penner and Cogliano.

As for Penner vs. Handzus, Handzus did put up better numbers albeit in 4 more games. However, he is a force in the face-off circle and a stud on the PK while being an invaluable veteran presence on a young team. I'm not going to belittle fans of other teams for still saying Handzus is awful based on his 07-08 season because I can't blame them for not watching a bad West Coast team but seriously: Handzus was fantastic last season. I mean, outside of the terrible 07-08, I feel that most people would choose Handzus over Penner even with MC's $4mm contract and this is not a case of a Kings fan "over rating" his players. The only thing in Penner's favor really is his age. If someone wanted to start a poll we could "test" it out on the league fanbase.

As for "blackcoffee's" comment about Kings fans overrating their players, I tend to agree; however, it's really only a select few but that select few happen to be those that post frequently here on the main board. The majority of them have been posting for less than two years and are caught up in the hype of LA's future. God love them though because you need these types in your fanbase and I'm not going to apologize for their fervor. Just don't argue with them because they aren't going to change their minds!

Also...the same can be said of every fanbase in the league. It sticks out more for the LAs and Edmontons of the world because they haven't won **** (Since '90 for Edmonton and since NEVER for LA) which begs the question...if these guys are so good then why do you suck so bad?


Last edited by BigKing: 08-16-2009 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Had to specify that I know the Oilers have won more than "****" at some point in time
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Old
08-16-2009, 01:33 PM
  #102
kingpest19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcoffee View Post
There are some really crazy LA fans that are quickly giving their fan-base the tag of the most annoying fans on HF. They overvalue their players like crazy.
Who are the Kings over valuing? Its a trade that doesnt work. The Kings have no need for Penner and neither player can replace what Handzus brings and to a point what Simmonds brings. If Cogliano doesnt live up to his potential then what? He doesnt seem like the type of player than can play the gritty game required for the bottom 6 and we know for sure Penner doesnt. Neither bring waht Handzus and Simmonds do on the PK either.

This trade is pretty much two players who are known quantities and two who have yet to show what players they are. This trade would basically kill the Kings third line and PK and not bring back enough to offset that.

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08-16-2009, 01:40 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
Penner and Heatley ring a bell?
Youre right Penner is a vaulable enough of a piece to get a two time 50 goal scorer. Oh wait a 50 goal scorer who asked for a trade who had a limited amount of teams he was "willing" to go to. If Murray wasnt the GM there and thinking he might be able to get Penner to produce at a level other than what he has, his name wouldnt even be mentioned in that trade.

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08-16-2009, 01:56 PM
  #104
Joey Moss
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Youre right Penner is a vaulable enough of a piece to get a two time 50 goal scorer. Oh wait a 50 goal scorer who asked for a trade who had a limited amount of teams he was "willing" to go to. If Murray wasnt the GM there and thinking he might be able to get Penner to produce at a level other than what he has, his name wouldnt even be mentioned in that trade.

Well first off I really dont see how your point of requesting a trade and making a list of teams he was willing to go to really has any effect on the way he plays the game, you said it he's a two time 50 goal scorer and a top 5 sniper in the league, he has lots of value.

Second, Murray is the GM of Ottawa so Penner's name was mentioned in the trade. Take it for what it's worth you can't just make assumptions of what would have happened if...

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08-16-2009, 02:07 PM
  #105
kingpest19
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
Well first off I really dont see how your point of requesting a trade and making a list of teams he was willing to go to really has any effect on the way he plays the game, you said it he's a two time 50 goal scorer and a top 5 sniper in the league, he has lots of value.

Second, Murray is the GM of Ottawa so Penner's name was mentioned in the trade. Take it for what it's worth you can't just make assumptions of what would have happened if...
It has an effect on the return hes going to bring. Heatley limited the market for his services thus having an effect on what value the team might recieve in a trade.

I know Murray is the GM of Ottawa, he was also the GM of the Ducks and responsible for drafting Smid and signing Penner. He has a history with those players. Thats the single biggest reason his name was involved in the deal. If the Sens GM isnt Murray theres a good chance Penners name isnt involved.

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08-16-2009, 02:45 PM
  #106
Joey Moss
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
It has an effect on the return hes going to bring. Heatley limited the market for his services thus having an effect on what value the team might recieve in a trade.

I know Murray is the GM of Ottawa, he was also the GM of the Ducks and responsible for drafting Smid and signing Penner. He has a history with those players. Thats the single biggest reason his name was involved in the deal. If the Sens GM isnt Murray theres a good chance Penners name isnt involved.
But once again Penner's name was involved in the trade to almost bring Heatley to Edmonton, so obviously there is evidence that Penner has value.

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08-16-2009, 02:49 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
But once again Penner's name was involved in the trade to almost bring Heatley to Edmonton, so obviously there is evidence that Penner has value.
To that GM at that point in time. But once again its a GMN who has history with the player and thinks he can bring something out of him that others havent been able to. I cant imagine too many GMs clamoring and climbing over each other to trade for a soon to be 27 yr old who has known issues, never scored more than 47 points and makes the money he does. Just because his name was mentioned in the Heatley rumors doesnt mean he has the value that some of you seem to think.

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08-16-2009, 03:17 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
But once again Penner's name was involved in the trade to almost bring Heatley to Edmonton, so obviously there is evidence that Penner has value.
Edmonton also would have had to move salary out to fit Heatley in. With the cap, deals can't be looked at just in regards to the quality of players being moved.

And like others have said, players might have a ton of value to one organization, but not an other, for whatever reason. Edmonton's got quite a few offensive defensemen with Souray, Visnovsky, and Gilbert for example. If the Leafs were offering Kaberle around, he wouldn't be very valuable to the Oilers, because it's an area they already have a surplus in. So while Ottawa might have found some value in Penner, it doesn't mean LA would value him at the same rate.

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08-16-2009, 04:29 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
To that GM at that point in time. But once again its a GMN who has history with the player and thinks he can bring something out of him that others havent been able to. I cant imagine too many GMs clamoring and climbing over each other to trade for a soon to be 27 yr old who has known issues, never scored more than 47 points and makes the money he does. Just because his name was mentioned in the Heatley rumors doesnt mean he has the value that some of you seem to think.
I do not think Penner has lots of value whatsoever, you said Penner couldn't bring back any value from a trade and im using the Heatley trade as a perfect example to show that is not true. I wouldn't have expected $7.3 Scott Gomez to bring back value either on his terrible contract.. You dont know if any other GM may have interest in a big guy like Penner, there's more to his game then offense in which he could bring back value in a trade and maybe it's not just Murray that likes him, obviously Murray saw something good in Penner otherwise he wouldn't have wanted him back, maybe another GM would think the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by danaluvsthekings View Post
Edmonton also would have had to move salary out to fit Heatley in. With the cap, deals can't be looked at just in regards to the quality of players being moved.

And like others have said, players might have a ton of value to one organization, but not an other, for whatever reason. Edmonton's got quite a few offensive defensemen with Souray, Visnovsky, and Gilbert for example. If the Leafs were offering Kaberle around, he wouldn't be very valuable to the Oilers, because it's an area they already have a surplus in. So while Ottawa might have found some value in Penner, it doesn't mean LA would value him at the same rate.
Oh I know, im not using this as an example with the Kings, just in general.

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08-16-2009, 04:51 PM
  #110
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Penner is one of the players I don't want anywhere near the Kings.

Penner = lazy overpaid player with bad attitude

Handzus = hard working overpaid player with good leadership qualities.


Dean Lombardi ain't gonna trade for Penner. -> That's a fact.

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08-16-2009, 04:56 PM
  #111
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I think Edmonton has to decide if they're rebuilding or challenging for 8th place. They seem to be content with mediocrity.

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08-16-2009, 06:31 PM
  #112
kingpest19
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
I do not think Penner has lots of value whatsoever, you said Penner couldn't bring back any value from a trade and im using the Heatley trade as a perfect example to show that is not true. I wouldn't have expected $7.3 Scott Gomez to bring back value either on his terrible contract.. You dont know if any other GM may have interest in a big guy like Penner, there's more to his game then offense in which he could bring back value in a trade and maybe it's not just Murray that likes him, obviously Murray saw something good in Penner otherwise he wouldn't have wanted him back, maybe another GM would think the same?



Oh I know, im not using this as an example with the Kings, just in general.
Such as what? hes not physical, hes not all that gritty, his defensive side is average, his offense is average. Theres not that much to his game. Or maybe other GMs see the flaws in his game that are there and combined with his past history and his contract want nothing to do with him? Penner isnt exactly a hot commodity and really never has been.

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