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Old
08-17-2009, 01:13 AM
  #51
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It's about time. I always thought it was crazy that there was GM talk associated with Messier before any sort appointment such as this was ever made. The progression I want to see is.
  • Assistant to Slats (has happened)
  • Sather retires (he won't get fired)
  • New GM (not Mess) is hired, Mess is hired as AGM.
  • Mess stays there as AGM for at least 6 years until Sather's replacement either retires/moves on/contract is up or is fired (but I would hope that GM will be so good that that would never happen).

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08-17-2009, 01:48 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GongShowHockeyNYR View Post
So without Messier we don't get Lowe who was a monster for us that year. We don't beat NJ in game 6. New Jersey goes on to beat Vancouver. And because of Sather and Smith's mistakes it's Messier's fault we were mediocre for 7+ years. Yikes. I'm sorry but I've never met anyone so angry at the front office so much that they'd hate the guy that brought ELITE players over, helped develops Graves, and win us a Cup. Would you rather us not make the trade and not have "11" or "Graves-9" up in the rafters? Good god man, give your head a shake.
Forgive me if I don't play the "IF" game with you. In the end it'll be like hitting your head against a wall because it feels so good when one stops. It's not a bad gig when you can get ALL the credit, but none of the blame.

Your Assumptions that there was a cosmic chain of events with your demigod at the center is quaint. Me, I find winning 2 Cups in almost 70 years less than satisfying. But forgetting Matteau, our goalie's performance and the Conn Smyth winners performance to feed your mancrush is what I find stupid. If you disagree with me fine. But don't make personal attacks because your opinion differs from mine. You are reading a whole lot more into my viewpoint than exists.


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08-17-2009, 01:56 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GongShowHockeyNYR View Post
Yes, let's bash the guy who brought the cup to NY. If he wasn't here, NJ would have 4 cups, and we would be hearing 1940 chants still...
You totally off on your own tangent there. Please re-read my rant. I think it's time you pull down the yellowing newspaper articles and hockey magazine centerfolds. It's been 15 years this year. Eveyone's been paid in spades. BTW - a home grown Ranger like Leetch is far more deserving of this opportunity. That is the main point I was making. Reading for comprehension shouldn't be an afterthought.


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08-17-2009, 02:04 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Macke View Post
If some of the Messier bashers are sick about all the praise Mess gets because of 94 you should just see the love in that goes on with Linden in Vancouver.
The dfference is Linden was drafted by the Nuck's just like our own Leetch. Your man has hitched his wagon to the Baffoon from Banf-f-f's when his career was spent mostly help win championships for other franchises. I enjoyed his contribution to '94, I just find squealing like little girls in pigtails over a mercenary, albeit Cup winning mercenary, nauseating. The Cup was bought and paid for. Let's move on.

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08-17-2009, 02:17 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I'm also of the mind-set that maybe, just maybe it would have been better for Messier to "cut his teeth" so to speak with another organization. Edmonton would have been preferable in my opinion.

I get what he did for the Rangers. His presense made this organization believe it was good enough to win. He made the players around him more comfortable and confident in their abilities and at that time, that was friggin awesome, but do we really have to be the training ground for him to learn the ropes to be a GM?

Does ANYONE really believe that he's NOT the next GM? You don't groom someone like this to get a job for your competition.

Maybe I am assuming to much when i say I don't think he would be a good GM. It's not often when great players make good front office personel. The odds are stacked against them as the game comes easy to the talented. Its the guys that actually have to work hard that make great front office guys.

Thank you Mess for 1994, a great day for me that we were able to say that we won a championship.

But for me....enough is enough already.
Alright Someone that gets it. I like the thoughtful way you make your point. I with I could do that...drives me nuts when posters intentionally misinterpret my posts so they can hijack the thread and go in another direction, sometimes just so they can call me out or call me names for having a different opinion.

I'm just wondering if the NHL made players pick one team on their HOF statue and display to be identified with, which team would he pick? If he were asked what are you at your core, an Oiler or a Ranger, what would he say? I'm grateful for the Cup, but sometimes I feel like what we do with "The idol" is as ilogical as if the Pens hailed Guerin for winning the Cup. You win and lose as a team. Every part is as important as the other. He did not do it alone.

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08-17-2009, 02:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
this, This, THIS!!!

It's the reason (imo) that Gretzky is not a good coach, or why Messier will not be a good GM...they were just on such a different level in terms of skill that they can't evaluate players for what they truly are.
Goalies have the stuff to be good GMs. They are usually good students of the game. They get to watch a lot of players and what makes them effective. Richter would be a decent addition to the Rangers in this capacity. Alas, he has bigger fish to fry.

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08-17-2009, 09:19 AM
  #57
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We may all hate the idea of Messier one day being the braintrust of this organization, but there is one thing to keep in mind.

Messiers work ethic is next to none, and while he may not seem experienced or saavy in the team management role, if it turns out to be something he really enjoys I see no reason to believe he could be successful at it. Sure, the same thing could be said for Gretzky and his coaching aspirations - but things take a while to develop in this role.

Messier knows this isnt an overnight thing. He'll be committed to it, and I see no reason why he can't be a GM in this league one day. Effective one? Well we'll just have to wait and see. Personally I dont think he has the right temperament for the job, but hes the type of guy that proves you wrong.

Good luck to Messier, Congratulations, and welcome back to the Rangers.

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08-17-2009, 11:13 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The fact is even in his last season he was one of the most productive players on this team.

- He ran Roger Neilson out. Would you prefer he didn't?
I wholeheartedly disagree that he was one of the most productive players on that team. He had become lazy and ineffective and was constantly backpassing to players who weren't there, often leading to odd man rushes against the team.

A couple of them were so egregious that I thought that Sam and JD might mention them but they always chose to swallow their microphones whenever Messier screwed up which is why I wasn't sad to seee JD leave. Early in his career he was a great announcer. Then he developed bonds with the players and his objectivity only applied to opposing players at that point but never to the Rangers.

I would have greatly preferred that he didn't run Neilson out of town. Did we then bring in a succession of great coaches?

When a player runs a coach out of town, the franchise has no choice but to be fractured and in disarray. It's a disgrace for a man considered to be one of the greatest team leaders ever (and he was) to place himself above team. And that is exactly what he did. He should have shut his piehole and collected his undeserved checks at that point.

HIs last couple of seasons her before leaving the first time were too much. Bringing him back again was an absolute travesty and the fault for that falls squarely on Sather's shoulders. It was a good deal of what was wrong with this franchise for so long.

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08-17-2009, 11:39 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy View Post
Alright Someone that gets it. I like the thoughtful way you make your point. I with I could do that...drives me nuts when posters intentionally misinterpret my posts so they can hijack the thread and go in another direction, sometimes just so they can call me out or call me names for having a different opinion.

I'm just wondering if the NHL made players pick one team on their HOF statue and display to be identified with, which team would he pick? If he were asked what are you at your core, an Oiler or a Ranger, what would he say? I'm grateful for the Cup, but sometimes I feel like what we do with "The idol" is as ilogical as if the Pens hailed Guerin for winning the Cup. You win and lose as a team. Every part is as important as the other. He did not do it alone.
You've made some great posts in this thread, including one I quoted in a similar thread on the Oilers' board.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=672784&page=2

I think my posts there would answer your question, so I'm going to quote them here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher View Post
+1

The final slap in the face for me came when Messier said he would only play another year if it could be for the Rangers. KLowe tried to persuade Messier to play one more year for the Oilers (which would have been interesting since that team went to the Finals), and Messier said he'd rather retire. It's funny, the Oilers have had many superstars come and go, many of which went on to have huge successes elsewhere, and yet I get the distinct feeling all of them (Gretzky, Coffey, Fuhr, etc), still view themselves as Oilers. All but one that is, and ironically he's from Edmonton. Sure, he'll come back if they name a street after him, otherwise he's Ranger Blue.
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Originally Posted by Asher View Post
Not so much a snub as a desire to end his career with the team that feels most closely associated with - the Rangers. Same holds true about 2 years ago when Messier expressed public interest in becoming the GM of the Rangers (IIRC he named them specifically). It's not surprising to me that Messier would now take a job with the Rangers (in fact, I'm much more surprised that he would express interest in a job with the Oilers). They're his team - I would think that's kind of obvious by now. Ask Gretzky, Anderson, Coffey, etc. if they would like to be remembered as Oilers, and I guarantee you they will all answer with a resounding "yes." Ask Messier the same and he will dodge the question. I know, I've seen him do it on camera. He may not want to outwardly offend Oiler fans by running around proclaiming the Rangers are his team, but the truth is, they are.

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Old
08-17-2009, 11:42 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post


I would have greatly preferred that he didn't run Neilson out of town. Did we then bring in a succession of great coaches?
.
When Messier ran Neilsen out of town, they brought in Mike Keenan and the franchise won its only Stanley Cup in the last 69 years.

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08-17-2009, 12:01 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
When Messier ran Neilsen out of town, they brought in Mike Keenan and the franchise won its only Stanley Cup in the last 69 years.
I personally don't think they won because of Keenan. At all. In any way. Simply put, that Rangers team was the best team personnel-wise in the NHL that year just like almost all cup winners are. The only time you can honestly evaluate a coach is when he is putrid (see Trootier for a stellar example of this).

In fact, I give almost no credit to coaches who win Cups in general because they always lose when they don't have the best personnel. Coaches' legends are the results of what GMs give them, not what they create. That is why coaches in all sports are on a carousel being recycled over and over again. Yes, there are exceptions but they probably represent around 1% of the coaches that dance from team to team.

It's the same mentality that assigns value to players because they played for Cup winners. In the cases of a Messier and Gretzky it means something. In the case of a Beukeboom it means he had the good fortune to land in a great spot.

It's also why some idiots thought Bourque wasn't an all-time great until he won a Cup with Colorado. Never mind that he was not just hall-of fame caliber but he was in the upper crust of hall of fame greatness.

Same goes for goalies. Anyone who tells me that Osgood is a great goalie is nuts in my mind but he collects Cups because he played with an utterly dominant team. Hasek, on the other hand, couldn't buy a Cup in Buffalo despite being the best I have ever seen but he got his when he went to that same Detroit juggernaut.

Back to my main point, Messier coming back here set this franchise back in a big way because it remained his team and the team wasn't allowed to head in any direction that he disagreed with. This should never be allowed to happen. Ever.

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08-17-2009, 12:09 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy View Post
The dfference is Linden was drafted by the Nuck's just like our own Leetch. Your man has hitched his wagon to the Baffoon from Banf-f-f's when his career was spent mostly help win championships for other franchises. I enjoyed his contribution to '94, I just find squealing like little girls in pigtails over a mercenary, albeit Cup winning mercenary, nauseating. The Cup was bought and paid for. Let's move on.
Hull wasn't drafted by Dallas, MaCinnis wasn't drafted by St. Louis, Neely wasn't drafted by Boston. What's your point? Should those organizations be ashamed for having "mercenaries" being groomed to run the show? And how is Messier a mercenary? He played just as many seasons with NY as he did Edmonton. I don't think you understand what a mercenary is. Maybe we just have different definitions. A mercenary is a player who plays for the team for either 2 seasons or shorter to help the team win the cup and they'll either a)retire, or b)sign with their former team in the off-season. IE Ray Bourque. And how was it paid for? If you were such a big fan since the 60's you would know that almost all of their moves were trades. Just about any team in the NHL could've made those trades.

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08-17-2009, 12:44 PM
  #63
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It's very simple.

Messier was hired because Graves is tired of being the only one to carry a drunken Gilbert home.

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08-17-2009, 12:44 PM
  #64
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I love the move. He's in no way a lock to become GM and he's in a position where he can get the thing he lacks most in the area...Experience. The fact is that Messier already has many of the tools a GM needs in assessing play, the direction of the game, player skills, what it takes to be successful, and unwaivering leadership. This is a great move!

Next we need to get Richter into the press box!

I believe it was either Richter or Graves who had talked about how Messier and Leetch were fascinating to listen to. That the two of would sit in the hotel room and discuss this player or that and this game plan or that and how to counter act it and what needed to happen. This kind of vision is important and is something that a GM should have.

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08-17-2009, 12:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
When Messier ran Neilsen out of town, they brought in Mike Keenan and the franchise won its only Stanley Cup in the last 69 years.
Good point, Messier was a long time GM of the Rangers already. Neil Smith was only his puppet. When Smith flexed his independence, Messier went to Vancouver. In the end, the organization fired Smith for repeatedly failing on his own.

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08-17-2009, 01:11 PM
  #66
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I personally don't think they won because of Keenan. At all. In any way. Simply put, that Rangers team was the best team personnel-wise in the NHL that year just like almost all cup winners are. The only time you can honestly evaluate a coach is when he is putrid (see Trootier for a stellar example of this).

In fact, I give almost no credit to coaches who win Cups in general because they always lose when they don't have the best personnel. Coaches' legends are the results of what GMs give them, not what they create. That is why coaches in all sports are on a carousel being recycled over and over again. Yes, there are exceptions but they probably represent around 1% of the coaches that dance from team to team.

It's the same mentality that assigns value to players because they played for Cup winners. In the cases of a Messier and Gretzky it means something. In the case of a Beukeboom it means he had the good fortune to land in a great spot.

It's also why some idiots thought Bourque wasn't an all-time great until he won a Cup with Colorado. Never mind that he was not just hall-of fame caliber but he was in the upper crust of hall of fame greatness.

Same goes for goalies. Anyone who tells me that Osgood is a great goalie is nuts in my mind but he collects Cups because he played with an utterly dominant team. Hasek, on the other hand, couldn't buy a Cup in Buffalo despite being the best I have ever seen but he got his when he went to that same Detroit juggernaut.

Back to my main point, Messier coming back here set this franchise back in a big way because it remained his team and the team wasn't allowed to head in any direction that he disagreed with. This should never be allowed to happen. Ever.
While I'm not a big Keenan guy, I do think that coaches have a role in a cup winning team. Especially from a strategy point of view. He determines how a team plays, which in today's NHL, it makes a difference. In the old days I could say, well it was pretty much run & gun. A good defense was good if the players who were back there were good. However, today strategy is more important than ever.

Also, unless you have a team with players like Messier who are a strong leader and motivator, you need a coach who is going to do that as well. Sure, players do that too, but the coach is the main guy.

Many coaches also have a say in which players are going to play for the team (see 09-10 Rangers). Most GMs are going to get players that a coach likes. You could have a very good player, but if a coach doesn't like him, the GM may be reluctant to bring him in. Also it can go the other way, if a coach doesn't like a player, than that player may be out of town sooner or later (Zubov anyone?). In 1994, I do think that Messier had a huge role in the makeup of that team, but in today's league I think the role of the coach is more important than ever.


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08-17-2009, 01:21 PM
  #67
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Good point, Messier was a long time GM of the Rangers already. Neil Smith was only his puppet.
At least now i know who to blame

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08-17-2009, 01:36 PM
  #68
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From the press release "...carried the team to the s\Stanley Cup..." as if he were playing 1 against 5. I call BS. Matteau doesn't score the OT winners your scenario probably would hve played out. Where's teh blame for leading us in the flustercuck years out of the playoffs? It cuts both ways. Look, I don't particularly like the guy for the reasons I stated previously, that's not going to change.

I grew up watching the Rangers in the mid-60's so I'm not drinking the Edmonton Koolaid - thank you very much. He got paid his millions for the mercenary services. Now go back to Edmonton where you won 5 Cups.

The Ranger teams during Messier's 2nd tour were train wrecks, which had a hell of a lot more to do with the organization's bad drafting, development, personel moves (UFA signings) and coaching than with Mess as the team captain. When the Space Shuttle blew up - was it the pilot's fault - or the moron that designed the O-rings?

Like someone said - as long as Messier is willing to bust his ass and learn the necessary skills - it's worth giving him a shot. If he's expecting to pull a Brett Hull - it's going to be a disaster for the Rangers. I don't see why it's a bad idea to give him a chance.

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08-17-2009, 01:37 PM
  #69
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Were any of these Mess-bashers of age when he brought the cup to N.Y.?????Just curious.
I was thinking the exact same thing. It's one thing to dislike this move, but nobody who remembers that cup run (and I'm probably on the younger end of the spectrum that does, as I was 9, but I remember the enirtey of it) would speak about the man with as little affection as some posters here are.

As for the move, well he's essentially going to be a glorified scout, what's the big deal? 25 years in the league, around 17 years of elite playing, makes you more than qualified to scout 17 to 20 year olds and sit next to Glen while he does whatever it is that Glen Sather does. I don't think Sather's going to be gone for a while, so we'll deal with succession down the road.


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08-17-2009, 01:46 PM
  #70
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It's very simple.

Messier was hired because Graves is tired of being the only one to carry a drunken Gilbert home.
You owe me a new keyboard!

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08-17-2009, 01:50 PM
  #71
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There is one little step from a leader to a dictator. Messier made that step long time ego. There is no way back from that.

Nay from me, but Dolan should like him, so we will see replacement of Torts with Mess at some point. That will prolong the Sather's tenure beyond belief, cause Mess will get fired first. That is why I think Messier may never agree to coach here. He is evil, but smart.

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08-17-2009, 02:38 PM
  #72
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I was thinking the exact same thing. It's one thing to dislike this move, but nobody who remembers that cup run (and I'm probably on the younger end of the spectrum that does, as I was 9, but I remember the enirtey of it) would speak about the man with as little affection as some posters here are.
I don't know how to say this other than to tell you that you are wrong. We all are entitled to react to players or anything else for that matter in any way we choose. There is no uniformity of reactions.

I loved Messier as a player, especially as an Oiler, and I'm very grateful for his helping the Rangers win a Cup and while they wouldn't have won it without him, Leetch was easily the most important player in capturing that Cup, in my opinion. I also think that if you took Kovalev off that team they don't win. That doesn't mean he was as valuable as the other two but he was great in that Cup run yet many here denigrate Kovalev repeatedly.

But none of this matters. What matters is that Messier's final stint here stunk up the joint on the ice and in the inner workings of the team. I'm not mad at him about it. He didn't do anything wrong. He just accepted money from the village idiot. Who can blame him for that?

Also, none of this has anything to do with his being hired now. Honestly, I don't care all that much about it, maybe because I have come to expect that Edmonton's footprint is so enormous at MSG that it is hard to envision it going away anytime soon.

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08-17-2009, 04:33 PM
  #73
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This role appears to be a decent fit for him when you look at the way Neely and Yzerman remain close to the organizations without pulling the strings on day-to-day operations. Plus it will be good to have Messier around MSG on a regular basis. I agree I don't want him as GM any time soon (if at all), but it's good to have him around.

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08-17-2009, 05:32 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander View Post
I was thinking the exact same thing. It's one thing to dislike this move, but nobody who remembers that cup run (and I'm probably on the younger end of the spectrum that does, as I was 9, but I remember the enirtey of it) would speak about the man with as little affection as some posters here are.

As for the move, well he's essentially going to be a glorified scout, what's the big deal? 25 years in the league, around 17 years of elite playing, makes you more than qualified to scout 17 to 20 year olds and sit next to Glen while he does whatever it is that Glen Sather does. I don't think Sather's going to be gone for a while, so we'll deal with succession down the road.
was 25 years old when the cup was won and I would rather he not join the front office staff here as I don't believe for one second that he will make a good GM.

Great player....well that's enough for me.

I'd rather he not train here because it means he is the next GM for this franchise. I don't want this team with a Rook GM after going what we have gone through with Sather.

For all Sather recent siccess, there's still a great deal of failure here and the fact of the matter is that after almost 10 years on the job, we are not contenders to me equals failue.

To go from, Sather to Messier will not further this franchise, it will help regress it.

Again, maybe I assume to much, but I'd rather hire a proven entity than risk the future with a Rookie GM with NO PRIOR EXPERIENCE to draw from.

It's one thing to learn it, another entirely to employ it.

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08-17-2009, 06:36 PM
  #75
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He should have done other things in hockey after his retirement, to set himself up, prior to being given this appointment. A scout, an assitant coach in the minors, an Assit. GM with some other team, ect. He can learn on the job, but that doesn't mean he's the right man for the job.

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