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Old
08-17-2009, 01:25 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkteen View Post
to VAN:

Kaberle
Mayers
White

to TOR:

Demitra
Bernier/Raymond
O'Brien
2nd round 2010

I added Mayers onto the deal so Toronto could clear a little more cap space.
Quote:
Yeah, I know. The Canucks really need a puck moving d-man, though, and I really want Kaberle. Plus, if Toronto did this deal, they could move Van Ryn if necessary, as he's making close to $3M I believe.
How about we just replace Kaberle with MVR, and Vancouver can keep their 2nd round pick, and O'Brien.

White, MVR, Mayers for Demitra and Bernier/Raymond.

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Old
08-17-2009, 01:31 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linkteen View Post
to VAN:

Kaberle
Mayers
White

to TOR:

Demitra
Bernier/Raymond
O'Brien
2nd round 2010

I added Mayers onto the deal so Toronto could clear a little more cap space.
Burke would be so pissed off at this proposal that there aren't enough swear words in the English language for him to use to respond to this.

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Old
08-17-2009, 01:32 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
How about we just replace Kaberle with MVR, and Vancouver can keep their 2nd round pick, and O'Brien.

White, MVR, Mayers for Demitra and Bernier/Raymond.
Keep it simple: MVR for Demitra straight up.

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Old
08-17-2009, 02:52 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
Demitra's contract is hardly horrible!

wasn't he the 2nd most productive UFA signing last year (after Hossa)? at $4mill/yr on a short-term deal that expires when other contracts needs to be extended, his contract isn't a problem. And 20 goals, and 53 pts in 69 games is hardly horrible either - and not out of line at $4mill, considering what other UFAs sign for.

Demitra had a better PPG pace than all other forwards on the Leafs last year other than Blake - and was just slightly behind him... he had a better GPG and PPG than Ponikarovsky did. For all those Leafs fans defending Van Ryn and his PPG pace, surely you can't ignore Demitra's??

How is that horrible for $4mill, when the contract expires after this year? And he didn't do that on the top line either - playing only about 5 games with the Sedins, and wasn't even with Sundin till mid-January.

And White, IMO, is really getting overrated... I don't think his value is any higher than Raymond's alone! He's a decent depth dman - but he's not a top pairing guy, and on the Canucks he'd be #5 on the depth chart, as he's not a better overall dman than any of Salo, Mitchell, Bieksa or Edler. He'd basically be a PP specialist in Vancouver, getting 3rd pairing icetime next to O'Brien!

And right now, such dmen aren't worth a whole lot... not with some UFA dmen out there that are just as good or better (such as Seidenberg).
How does Demitra help a rebuilding team?

Kaberle is one of Toronto's best assets. The package you receive back has to be focussed around a long term goal. Since Toronto is probably going to suck this season anyway, if they really wanted Demitra (which they don't), they would just wait until the off season and sign him for a fair contract of about 2 million.

Although Demitra is getting older, so his numbers might fall off this season, in which case he is not worth even 2 million.

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Old
08-17-2009, 03:28 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
Demitra's contract is hardly horrible!

wasn't he the 2nd most productive UFA signing last year (after Hossa)? at $4mill/yr on a short-term deal that expires when other contracts needs to be extended, his contract isn't a problem. And 20 goals, and 53 pts in 69 games is hardly horrible either - and not out of line at $4mill, considering what other UFAs sign for.

Demitra had a better PPG pace than all other forwards on the Leafs last year other than Blake - and was just slightly behind him... he had a better GPG and PPG than Ponikarovsky did. For all those Leafs fans defending Van Ryn and his PPG pace, surely you can't ignore Demitra's??

How is that horrible for $4mill, when the contract expires after this year? And he didn't do that on the top line either - playing only about 5 games with the Sedins, and wasn't even with Sundin till mid-January.

And White, IMO, is really getting overrated... I don't think his value is any higher than Raymond's alone! He's a decent depth dman - but he's not a top pairing guy, and on the Canucks he'd be #5 on the depth chart, as he's not a better overall dman than any of Salo, Mitchell, Bieksa or Edler. He'd basically be a PP specialist in Vancouver, getting 3rd pairing icetime next to O'Brien!

And right now, such dmen aren't worth a whole lot... not with some UFA dmen out there that are just as good or better (such as Seidenberg).
How exactly is White overated? Because he averaged nearly 23 minutes a night for the leafs? He isn't an exceptional player but he really impressed the fan base last year. He's also 25 which works well for the leafs. He'd be a pp specialist in Van same as he will in Toronto. White also had 1 less goal and 3 more points then Raymond. How does he help our offence in any way? So IMO White has more value then Raymond. I hope you also realize that O'Brien is part of the OP so he wouldn't be playing with White. Kaberle would more likely be your pp specialist.

Demitra is a solid vet but not what Toronto needs to be adding at this point in time. Moving him for Kaberle helps the leafs how? Losing a great dman on a nice contract for a 34 yr old with an expiring contract does what to help the leafs down the road? Not that it makes a huge difference but you forgot about Antropov who had more goals with the leafs before being traded then Demitra had all season. So I don't know who Demitra was playing with on the Nucks because he was fourth in icetime among forwards for the Nucks behind the twins and Kesler. You liked puting his stats against Poni's but didn't take into account ice time. Demitra averaged 17:29 minutes a game and Poni averaged 15:47. That's a good indicator as to why his points are lower.

As for his contract if Blake is considered overpaid why then shouldn't Demitra? I don't agree with it but that's why guys are posting that.

So to break it down.
Kaberle>Demitra
White>Raymond
Mayers<2nd round pick

Where exactly is the value for the leafs?

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Old
08-17-2009, 03:34 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauser View Post
Burke would be so pissed off at this proposal that there aren't enough swear words in the English language for him to use to respond to this.
made me laugh at work

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Old
08-17-2009, 03:56 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
So to break it down.
Kaberle>Demitra
White>Raymond
Mayers<2nd round pick

Where exactly is the value for the leafs?

There is none.


Every Canucks fan is convinced that Raymond and Demitra have huge value and teams like Toronto and Ottawa are so desperate to move their players that this is the best they can do.

In most trades Demitra will have negative value due to his cap hit. Raymond has done nothing to prove he is anything special. Toronto has a half dozen similar prospects already.

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Old
08-17-2009, 04:13 PM
  #33
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Ok, I'm tired of this cap hit BS.

4 mil is pretty norm for 60pt players. Deal with it, people.

Jason Blake's cap hit is fine for what he brings. The length is what makes it an albatross. Demitra is on a short term contract and can re-signed cheaper.

Now, the original proposal is quite brutal and Toronto has no reason to pick up another vet forward. Not for Kaberle, who is going to fit quite comfortably with Komi, Beauch and Schenn.

White is an asset that can be traded but I'd expect a young 2nd liner (Bernier, as an example) or a 2nd rounder pick +

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Old
08-17-2009, 06:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinae View Post
Ok, I'm tired of this cap hit BS.

4 mil is pretty norm for 60pt players. Deal with it, people.

Jason Blake's cap hit is fine for what he brings. The length is what makes it an albatross. Demitra is on a short term contract and can re-signed cheaper.

Now, the original proposal is quite brutal and Toronto has no reason to pick up another vet forward. Not for Kaberle, who is going to fit quite comfortably with Komi, Beauch and Schenn.

White is an asset that can be traded but I'd expect a young 2nd liner (Bernier, as an example) or a 2nd rounder pick +
4 million is good for a 60 point guy who is young.

Demitra is old, one dimensional, injury prone. He also put up 53 points this season and 54 the previous. He is clearly on the decline.

If he resigned right now, I guarantee you he would not get 4 million. Kovalev signed at 5. He brings a lot more to the table. A LOT MORE.

If Demitra were to resign he would get 2.5 tops. That means his contract is 1.5 million bigger than it should be.

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Old
08-17-2009, 07:17 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pauser View Post
Keep it simple: MVR for Demitra straight up.
This , I agree with.

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Old
08-17-2009, 07:25 PM
  #36
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Very bad proposal. Very, very bad.

Forget Kaberle. If the Nucks going to target someone, let it be White. I don't think just Raymond will do it, but not much more than Raymond could. Both teams give up a player with some value, but a player they can spare. It hurts the Leafs a little more than the Nucks, so they probably have to even out with a pick.

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Old
08-17-2009, 10:20 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bieksa 3 View Post
Counter offer
To van
White

TO Tor
Bernier
ill pass.

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Old
08-17-2009, 10:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
4 million is good for a 60 point guy who is young.

Demitra is old, one dimensional, injury prone. He also put up 53 points this season and 54 the previous. He is clearly on the decline.

If he resigned right now, I guarantee you he would not get 4 million. Kovalev signed at 5. He brings a lot more to the table. A LOT MORE.

If Demitra were to resign he would get 2.5 tops. That means his contract is 1.5 million bigger than it should be.
You are wrong.

Demitra signed a two year deal after a 54 point season. His market value was determined not just by the Canucks, but at least one other team willing to offer a comparable amount.

Since that signing he has racked up a 53 point season while scoring five more goals. If I were to say that this one less point from the previous season demonstrated a player on the decline, I would also be forced to admit that the increase in goals demonstrated a player on the rise (which of course is silly).

Demitras increased age has slightly decreased his value, but not near the degree you put forth (probably around 3.75/yr on a short term deal). I also disagree with the notion that Demitra is a one demensional player. I recognise that Demitra does not have a dominating game, he puts up his points rather quietly. Nevertheless he is a very solid locker room addition with a great attitude, is good out helping out the young players, and is very solid defensively (if Canucks needed a forward to fill in for a defenceman, Demitra would be my pick).

That being said, he is a horrible interview. As this topic is about a possible move to Toronto, I can understand the fans there not being interested. Clearly they prefer the flashy and entertaining, irregardless of skill (why else would they want Burkie as GM).

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Old
08-18-2009, 12:00 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuts View Post
You are wrong.

Demitra signed a two year deal after a 54 point season. His market value was determined not just by the Canucks, but at least one other team willing to offer a comparable amount.

Since that signing he has racked up a 53 point season while scoring five more goals. If I were to say that this one less point from the previous season demonstrated a player on the decline, I would also be forced to admit that the increase in goals demonstrated a player on the rise (which of course is silly).

Demitras increased age has slightly decreased his value, but not near the degree you put forth (probably around 3.75/yr on a short term deal). I also disagree with the notion that Demitra is a one demensional player. I recognise that Demitra does not have a dominating game, he puts up his points rather quietly. Nevertheless he is a very solid locker room addition with a great attitude, is good out helping out the young players, and is very solid defensively (if Canucks needed a forward to fill in for a defenceman, Demitra would be my pick).

That being said, he is a horrible interview. As this topic is about a possible move to Toronto, I can understand the fans there not being interested. Clearly they prefer the flashy and entertaining, irregardless of skill (why else would they want Burkie as GM).

The main thing that has changed is the market. The market was hot when Demitra signed. Players were being singed for waaaayyy too much. Look at the contracts last year..... Jeff Finger.

Now the market is totally different.

Demitra is not worth his money, and you know that. This is why you and every other Canuck fan is throwing him into every deal.

Look at the outrage when people suggest contracts like Kesler etc should be traded. Those are good players on good contracts. Now look at how people deal with Demitra.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:54 AM
  #40
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When I made the proposal, I was thinking quantity of players to TO. They basically have no good forwards, so they may as well shore up with a bunch of decent ones, because it's not like they're gonna make the playoffs with that lineup (Blake and Ponikarvosky leaidng the way, come on). Also, I was basically treating Mayers as a throw-in to dump salary onto the Canucks and to have as an extra forward. I guess wanting White was over-reaching, but I really do not want Rome or Nycholat playing No.5/6 D. I would give up a 1st if pressed.

Altered proposal.

Demitra
Raymond
Grabner
1st

for

Kaberle
Mayers
late pick/don't care

Then Vancouver signs a league minimum forward to fill out the ranks if necessary.

Sedin-Sedin-Samuelsson
Burrows-Kesler-Bernier
Hansen-Hodgson-Wellwood
Hordichuk-Johnson-Rypien/Mayers
13th forward=anyone

Kaberle-Salo
Bieksa-Mitchell
Edler-Obrien/Rome/whoever

Luongo
Schnedier

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:11 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall View Post
The main thing that has changed is the market. The market was hot when Demitra signed. Players were being singed for waaaayyy too much. Look at the contracts last year..... Jeff Finger.

Now the market is totally different.

Demitra is not worth his money, and you know that. This is why you and every other Canuck fan is throwing him into every deal.

Look at the outrage when people suggest contracts like Kesler etc should be traded. Those are good players on good contracts. Now look at how people deal with Demitra.
Wrong, He has to be include in most deals because Vancouver is close to the cap. If the Canuck's want a "good" defenceman, his salary will be higher (obviously) thus leading to the inclusion of Demitra.....

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:12 AM
  #42
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Geeze how bad would Toronto be losing both White and Kaberle. No one will be able to move the puck from the blueline.

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