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Maple Leafs and Rangers?

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Old
08-18-2009, 05:48 PM
  #101
leafmon
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I don't understand why Toronto fans just don't understand that they won't get anything for their garbage. Not even an overpaid 2nd line center.

Get that through your heads, guys. No one wants Van Ryn and Finger. Stop complaining about it.
Good point but it is not just Tor fans as there are so many proposals on here looking to dump salary.
Nobody can really be that high on Drury with that contact but then I never thought the Rangers would be able to get rid of Gomez.
MVR was the price to get rid of McCabe and is a overpaid injury prone D with 1 year left. He actually can play when healthy but never really is .....well lately anyway.
Finger is something of a Hf legend now and is certainly overpaid but is a serviceable 5-6 guy. Big deal everyone has guys like these.

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Old
08-18-2009, 07:30 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinae View Post
Higgins, Prospal and Arnason are centers.
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Originally Posted by Machinae View Post
After that you have Avery, Arnason, and Boyle as bottom-6 centers.
What's wrong with that?
Please stop listing every Ranger winger who's taken a draw at some time in his career as a center, Prospal, Higgins, Avery are NOT centers. On top of that, Boyle and Arnason are borderline NHLers and one or both may end up in the minors. There is a reason why Arnason agreed to a two-way contract and Boyle, near the league minimum.

After Gomez was dealt and considering Drury's NMC, it's quite likely that he'll finish his deal in NY.

The only shot in the dark would be if the Rangers could 3-way the deal and send guys to Dallas for Richards. However, it was rumored their interests were in Dubinsky and moving both Dubinsky and Drury is not an option.

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Old
08-18-2009, 09:29 PM
  #103
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
Wow. Finger did outscore Redden. He scored twice as many goals in 15 less games. The Rangers had a bad power play because they didn't have a shooter. Really? Guess what Redden is suppose to be the shooter on the pp. I like how you continue to say Finger is a bottom pairing dman but every one of his stats from last year was better then Redden's aside from the 3 extra points that he had. I love how you discount what Finger did because he played for the leafs. But disregard his numbers because he played meaningless minutes. That's a sure sign of no good response. But you expect people to cut Redden some slack because he was adjusting to a new system last year. Guess what so was Finger so shouldn't you then cut him some slack? But Redden looked a lot better under Torts you say. Well let's look at the playoffs since he was doing so great at the end of the year. 7gp 4pim is all he contributed. Wow talking about knocking peoples socks off. Finger could never produce 4 penalty minutes in 7 games. That's impressive.
The Rangers had the 29th ranked power play in the league due to not just Redden, but a 9 other different individuals who took a regular shift who couldn't score goals for them. I love how you mention all of these stats about Finger, and you're comparing what is most likely Finger's career year to Redden's worst, and Finger still isn't anything special. Finger scored 6 goals and what 23 points while playing 20 minutes a game in Toronto, a team that had a piss-poor defense with the depth of a kiddie pool, and Redden in his worst season with a futile power play that possessed not a single person that shoots the puck still scored 26 points in his first season in NY, a team that had no one score more than 25 goals or 58 points, and only 4 players that scored 20 or more goals, Zherdev, Drury, Naslund, and Callahan. The Rangers overall with the biggest example of offensive futility in the NHL, and in hind-sight, scoring 28 points as a defenseman on that team isn't half-bad.

Redden has a 50/50 chance if you ask me of going 10-30-40 next year. If he does and goes +10 or so, I'd say he's worth most of, if not all of the 6.5 mill he makes, and with the way he played under Tortarella, I'd venture to say that he'll get close to those numbers.

Quote:
The one thing you are right about is that Finger's ice time will decrease this year. Great observation. No leafs fan has ever said his contract is good but considering his stats are all better then Redden's all while playing less games and having less time on the ice. Yeah I'm fine paying 3.5 million for a bottom pairing guy instead of a so called top pairing dman producing less then what you call a bottom pairing dman twice as much.
His stats in what's most likely his best year are better than Redden's in his worst. I'd rather pay 6.5 million for a guy who has a higher ceiling who has played at that level than 3.75 million for a guy who had no resume and no reason to be paid anymore than 1 million a season. Big name UFA's get overpaid, it's a fact of life. It's that way in every sport, because multiple teams are bidding for them. Apparently, Dallas felt he was worth about 6 million as well, as they were another team bidding for him. Who the hell bid even close to 3 million for Finger?

Quote:
As for Kaberle he was used as an example of your overhyping Redden's abilities as a player but yeah I'm the homer. At no point am I ignoring what Redden has done in the past. He has had a great career. The problem is for two seasons before the Rangers signed him he was declining. That needs to be taken into account when signing a player. He's simply lost his drive IMO. Our moron g.m overpaid for a guy with no resume while your moron g.m keeps overpaying for how guys played years ago. The only smart thing Sather has ever done since getting to NY is somehow convincing Gainey to take on Gomez.
Terrible example, as Kaberle never hit UFA status. You can ***** all you want about Redden's contract, but at the end of the day, you're comparing apples to oranges. You're clearly ignoring what he's done in the past, and it shows. If Redden continued producing like he did in 06, he probably would have gotten Campbell money.

And you're clearly clueless as to Sather's body of work in NY. Maybe you should look at his trades, or his rebuilding of the farm system. The man gets a lot **** from Rangers fans, because we don't have a cup under him, but he's done a HELL of a job from 2003 and on.

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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Have a long memory do we? The fact that my definition differs from yours doesn't mean that I can't properly define the term.
No, you called him elite, went back on your words and said you didn't say that, then said you did, and then claimed that you had a different definition of it.

Point is, learn to think for yourself before you tell others to think before they post.

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Old
08-18-2009, 10:42 PM
  #104
dredeye
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
The Rangers had the 29th ranked power play in the league due to not just Redden, but a 9 other different individuals who took a regular shift who couldn't score goals for them. I love how you mention all of these stats about Finger, and you're comparing what is most likely Finger's career year to Redden's worst, and Finger still isn't anything special. Finger scored 6 goals and what 23 points while playing 20 minutes a game in Toronto, a team that had a piss-poor defense with the depth of a kiddie pool, and Redden in his worst season with a futile power play that possessed not a single person that shoots the puck still scored 26 points in his first season in NY, a team that had no one score more than 25 goals or 58 points, and only 4 players that scored 20 or more goals, Zherdev, Drury, Naslund, and Callahan. The Rangers overall with the biggest example of offensive futility in the NHL, and in hind-sight, scoring 28 points as a defenseman on that team isn't half-bad.

Redden has a 50/50 chance if you ask me of going 10-30-40 next year. If he does and goes +10 or so, I'd say he's worth most of, if not all of the 6.5 mill he makes, and with the way he played under Tortarella, I'd venture to say that he'll get close to those numbers.



His stats in what's most likely his best year are better than Redden's in his worst. I'd rather pay 6.5 million for a guy who has a higher ceiling who has played at that level than 3.75 million for a guy who had no resume and no reason to be paid anymore than 1 million a season. Big name UFA's get overpaid, it's a fact of life. It's that way in every sport, because multiple teams are bidding for them. Apparently, Dallas felt he was worth about 6 million as well, as they were another team bidding for him. Who the hell bid even close to 3 million for Finger?



Terrible example, as Kaberle never hit UFA status. You can ***** all you want about Redden's contract, but at the end of the day, you're comparing apples to oranges. You're clearly ignoring what he's done in the past, and it shows. If Redden continued producing like he did in 06, he probably would have gotten Campbell money.

And you're clearly clueless as to Sather's body of work in NY. Maybe you should look at his trades, or his rebuilding of the farm system. The man gets a lot **** from Rangers fans, because we don't have a cup under him, but he's done a HELL of a job from 2003 and on.



No, you called him elite, went back on your words and said you didn't say that, then said you did, and then claimed that you had a different definition of it.

Point is, learn to think for yourself before you tell others to think before they post.
This is like smaking my head against a wall. Just pointless. I'll try one more time. Yes I compared this seasons stats which happen to be Fingers best because of his career experience and one of Redden's worst but you've got tonnes of excuses as to why he had such a bad year. Which also happened to be this season. You can't blame injury so you blame every other player except Redden. Once again you talk about how Finger only managed 23 points playing on a poor defensive team while playing twenty minutes a night. But talk about how great Redden did producing 26 points while playing 22 minutes a night and also playing 15 more games. What the leafs depth has to do with anything is beyond me. Oh and for your argument about 20 goal scorers. Toronto also didn't have one guy score over 25 goals and only had 4 twenty goal scorers. Five with Antropov but we shared him last year. So that argument is useless. Redden didn't score 28 pts he scored 26pts. Oh and once again Redden is suppose to be your point shot. A forty point offensive dman isn't worth 6.5 million no matter how you slice it. Finger makes 3.5 million not 3.75 million. Where was it ever shown that Dallas offered 6 million for Redden? There were also other teams interested in Finger and yes the leafs paid more then he's worth. I'll say it again. HE'S PAID MORE THEN HE'S WORTH. The difference is I can admit that. You on the other hand defend how Redden is worth his contract without showing any reason aside from the fact that he had a good seasons three years ago. Wow.

Since you don't like the Kaberle example here are others

Rafalski 6 per signed with new team. Difference here 3 cup rings 2 before signing with the Wings and produces more every year then Redden.
Souray 5.4 per signed with new team. Plenty of playoff experience.
Kubina 5 per signed with new team. Cup ring
Streit 4.1 per signed with new team. No real history but is better today then Redden
Gonchar 5 per signed with a new team. Had playoff experience

Hopefully those are enough examples for you. All guys that signed via UFA and didn't take a home town discount. I would take any of these guys over Redden even when he was signed. Not just because he had a bad season in NY.

As for Sather he's great at drafting. There isn't much question about that. He also missed the playoffs in his first four years as president and g.m of the Rangers. In his time pre lockout he spent money like a mad man and managed to accomplish zero. He definately isn't afraid to make changes. His biggest problem is that he's also still not shy to spend money on high priced ufa's. His ego really seems to get him in trouble during the ufa period every year. Sather is a terrible g.m in the new NHL. He managed to correct a mistake and quickly followed it up with another. Oh well I guess all that matters is that you like him.

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Old
08-18-2009, 10:52 PM
  #105
grabo84
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
No, you called him elite, went back on your words and said you didn't say that, then said you did, and then claimed that you had a different definition of it.

Point is, learn to think for yourself before you tell others to think before they post.
Hm? None of that happened. You wilfully misinterpreted what I said, and tried to pretend that I was backtracking when I tried to correct you. It was bizarre, and reminds me of your behaviour in this thread. The fact that you bring up a pointless argument weeks (months?) later only adds to the strangeness of all this.

Point is, you should learn to have a conversation without arguing. Do you do this off the internet? If so, I bet you're a real treat to be around.

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Old
08-18-2009, 11:20 PM
  #106
dredeye
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Hm? None of that happened. You wilfully misinterpreted what I said, and tried to pretend that I was backtracking when I tried to correct you. It was bizarre, and reminds me of your behaviour in this thread. The fact that you bring up a pointless argument weeks (months?) later only adds to the strangeness of all this.

Point is, you should learn to have a conversation without arguing. Do you do this off the internet? If so, I bet you're a real treat to be around.
I wouldn't take it personally he simply can't acknowledge when he's wrong

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Old
08-18-2009, 11:23 PM
  #107
cupcrazyman
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Originally Posted by Machinae View Post
I see some posts saying that after all the moves at forward, NYR still has spots on Defense to fill. So, I'll take a stab at something.

To Toronto:
Chris Drury (7.050)

To New York:
Jeff Finger (3.5)
Mike Van Ryn (2.93)

Just throwing that out there. I'm aware of New York's lack of center depth and Toronto's abundance of centers, so adjusting may need to be made, but that's the general premise of it.

Let's hear some thoughts, and go easy on each other people
i would want a 2nd rounder coming to Toronto as well for taking on the extra salary.

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Old
08-18-2009, 11:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
i would want a 2nd rounder coming to Toronto as well for taking on the extra salary.
Thats nice, I would want a 1st rounder coming to the Rangers if they are taking on two players who are overpaid and wont play.

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Old
08-18-2009, 11:35 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Thats nice, I would want a 1st rounder coming to the Rangers if they are taking on two players who are overpaid and wont play.
Van Ryn is a good player. He'll be playing. With Finger you have 7 d. Though, this way you could keep Gilroy around as a 7th d to ease him into the lineup.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:47 AM
  #110
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Trading overpaid players for overpaid players makes sense, but trading good overpaid players for 2 bad overpaid players? Nope.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:56 AM
  #111
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The leafs have no interest in Drury.

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Old
08-19-2009, 04:03 AM
  #112
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I'd like to know how Van Ryn is overpaid exactly. Because he plays for the Leafs? The guy has had multiple solid NHL seasons and comes in at 2.95 million. In 2009 that's overpaid?

And again, to call Van Ryn and Finger bad players is ignorant and ignoring all facts.

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Old
08-19-2009, 07:09 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
No it's not. Dumpinmg Drury could save New York 7 million. Do you know what they could do with that? (Van Ryn is in his last year+ Finger can be sent down if they wanted)

And please, Van Ryn and Finger are hardly "Mediocre".
What makes you think the Rangers wants to "dump" their captain? Regardless of the atrocious salary Drury is making if today Sather moved Drury to another team what does it say about him to other free agents and the League? Not good to say the least. You need to realize Drury is not getting moved for whatever reason and stop hoping other teams can solve ur log jam at D.

Also, Van Ryn and Finger certainly DOES NOT have the ability to be top pairing D, and its arguable if they are even top 4. Saying they are mediocre is very reasonable.

Again im just going to quote myself here,

Quote:
Instead of arguing who has the worst salary in the league how about admitting the ludicrous that is the Leafs dumping two mediocre defenseman for NYR's team captain.

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Old
08-19-2009, 09:58 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinae View Post
Kotalik - Prospal - Gaborik
Higgins - Dubinsky - Callahan

After that you have Avery, Arnason, and Boyle as bottom-6 centers.

What's wrong with that?
I'd like to know what hat you are pulling these names out of.

Since when has avery ever held the center position for a game.

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Old
08-19-2009, 10:11 AM
  #115
Canuckle
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Originally Posted by ImmortalRanger View Post
I'd like to know what hat you are pulling these names out of.

Since when has avery ever held the center position for a game.
Avery did play center for Detroit and Los Angeles back in the days, but i agree with you, Avery is a better winger and OP is high on whatever to think that Prospal can be an effective #1 center.

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