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Is this year lineup better than last year's one?

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Old
08-14-2009, 03:42 PM
  #76
Orange
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So much of these comparisons require the new guys to play up to their career year/ceiling. How often has that happened on the habs the last 10 years ?

Gomez = Koivu
What we gain with Gomez is offset by what we lose with Koivu's intangibles. I might be swayed in Gomez's favor because of the age difference, but then the contract kills it.

Cammelleri >= Kovalev
I only give a slight advantage to Cam over Kovalev. Kovy is the better player but Cam is more consistent. It will take some pressure off our more streaky elements.

Gionta = Tanguay
Lateral move imo. We swap playmaking for potential goalscoring.

Spacek = Schneider
I'm not expecting another career year from Spacek.

Gill >= Bouillon
Very slight upgrade over Bouillon. Bouillon was mobile. But considering all our young guns, a veteran presence in the bottom pair is a smart move. I really disliked this move, but I'm slowly warming up to it.

Maxpac < Higgins
Chris was a regular on this team. Max still need to fight for a spot, let alone score 30. This is our biggest downgrade imo.

Moen > Kostopoulos
Definite upgrade. Would of loved to keep Kost on the 4th tho.

Mara < Komisarek
Komo is a defensive beast. He wasn't as much in the second half of the season but he was injured. Mara might be better rounded, but we don't need a rounded D playing with Markov. Markov-Komo is a better pairing than anything we can muster this year.

Weber/ Subban = Brisebois
Kids will make as many mistakes as Brisebois, minus the veteran presence.

The way I see it, we only have a marginal upgrade over last year. The bigger difference will be in the locker room. If they gel as a team, there's potential to do much better than last year. I'm not convinced last year's team could overcome the off ice issues and be a team again.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:07 AM
  #77
GaineysRightHandMan
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After watching the sportscentre peice on the Habs last night - it hit home. The Habs this year on paper does not look as good as last year. We are really missing a top pair defensive partner to play alongside Markov - 1 critical weakness.

I miss Komi already and after seeing the US Olympic camp reports focusing on Komi, I'm realizing that the Olympics may have caused Komi to choose the Leafs over the Canadiens this year. I would think he picked the Leafs so he can play for Wilson and Burke all year. Do you think this played a factor?

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:24 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaineysRightHandMan View Post
After watching the sportscentre peice on the Habs last night - it hit home. The Habs this year on paper does not look as good as last year. We are really missing a top pair defensive partner to play alongside Markov - 1 critical weakness.

I miss Komi already and after seeing the US Olympic camp reports focusing on Komi, I'm realizing that the Olympics may have caused Komi to choose the Leafs over the Canadiens this year. I would think he picked the Leafs so he can play for Wilson and Burke all year. Do you think this played a factor?
No Question. It was THE factor.

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08-19-2009, 11:25 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephaaane View Post
If we compare the lineups:

September 2009:

Tanguay-Koivu-Higgins Markov-Komisarek
A.Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev Hamrlik-O'Byrne
S.Kostitsyn-Lang-Latendresse Bouillon-Gorges
Kostopoulos-Lapierre-Laraque Dandenault
Bégin

August 13th 2010:

Latendresse-Gomez-Gionta Markov-Spacek
Cammalleri-Plekanec-A.Kostitsyn Hamrlik-Mara
S.Kostitsyn-Lapierre-Moen Gill-Gorges
Stewart-Metropolit-Laraque
(Paccioretty-Chipchura-D'Agostini)


I don't think we have an improvement but I'm glad that we have 2 offensive lines and 2 checking lines. I hope that we finally play big time minutes with our top lines and less with the bottom ones (not like Carbonneau did : 1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1...)
Considering we replaced guys in the high 30's by other ones in the low 30's, I think we have an improved lineup... easily. Specialy in fact because this team will be very fast.

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08-19-2009, 11:42 AM
  #80
HockeyF3ind
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Some food for thought when comparing Gomez and Koivu.

Career Regular Season PPG:

Koivu: 80.93%

Gomez: 81.87%

Career Playoff PPG:

Koivu: 88.89%

Gomez: 71.05%

While Gomez may be a better player during the regular season, I don't think its fair to say that he is better in the play-offs. Koivu considerably ups his game during the play-offs, whereas Gomez falters in terms of point production. And while Gomez has two Stanely Cup rings, I think its safe to say that those years he played on a team that was much better than any year of the Habs during Koivu's tenure.

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08-19-2009, 11:47 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Some food for thought when comparing Gomez and Koivu.

Career Regular Season PPG:

Koivu: 80.93%

Gomez: 81.87%

Career Playoff PPG:

Koivu: 88.89%

Gomez: 71.05%

While Gomez may be a better player during the regular season, I don't think its fair to say that he is better in the play-offs. Koivu considerably ups his game during the play-offs, whereas Gomez falters in terms of point production. And while Gomez has two Stanely Cup rings, I think its safe to say that those years he played on a team that was much better than any year of the Habs during Koivu's tenure.
Koivu is also on the decline. Gomez has some good years left in him. He is still in his prime.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:48 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaineysRightHandMan View Post
After watching the sportscentre peice on the Habs last night - it hit home. The Habs this year on paper does not look as good as last year.
They have better forwards, better defensemen, and the same goalies except one year more mature. What makes you think they're not as good on paper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaineysRightHandMan View Post
We are really missing a top pair defensive partner to play alongside Markov - 1 critical weakness.
What is Spacek supposed to be, chopped liver?

As the Lidstrom-Rafalski pairing proves in Detroit, pairings of two defensively sound puck-movers can be highly effective and a defensive stay-at-home partner to balance the puck-mover is not required. There's also the option of using Hamrlik as Markov's partner and using Spacek to lead the second pairing with a more defensive guy.

It's the pairings of two stay-at-home purely defensive guys that don't work, because you need at least one guy to pass the puck out.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:50 AM
  #83
Blind Gardien
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Impossible to do anything but speculate. On paper, I'm not convinced the team is any better (or worse). Is chemistry improved? Flip a coin, how can we know when the team hasn't even been together yet? Coaching, flip a coin. I don't see how anybody can come off the fence based on the CHANGES that were made. Optimism or pessimism are fair. But can't be backed up.

But looking past the CHANGES, I do like to focus my optimism for improvement on some of the players who are back from last year's team. Kostitsyn, Plekanec, and Price are 3 guys who we've seen can be much better than they were last year. We know they can be. Guys like Latendresse, Lapierre, Gorges may continue to progress amongst our regular young players. The inexperienced ones like SK or Pacioretty are total wild cards and could be in Hamilton, so I'm not pinning any hopes on them. But I don't need to. Status quo from the newcomers plus improvements from our key returning younger players will be all we need to step forward.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:57 AM
  #84
Bill McNeal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
Some food for thought when comparing Gomez and Koivu.

Career Regular Season PPG:

Koivu: 80.93%

Gomez: 81.87%

Career Playoff PPG:

Koivu: 88.89%

Gomez: 71.05%

While Gomez may be a better player during the regular season, I don't think its fair to say that he is better in the play-offs. Koivu considerably ups his game during the play-offs, whereas Gomez falters in terms of point production. And while Gomez has two Stanely Cup rings, I think its safe to say that those years he played on a team that was much better than any year of the Habs during Koivu's tenure.
Gomez played a lot of playoff games early in his career (before the age of 25) where he was still developing on a strong (and very defensive) New Jersey team. Those seasons drag down his numbers a bit, although the decline from his regular season stats to his post-season stats is rather drastic.

However, since 2003-04 Gomez has had only one post-season where he was less than a ppg (this past season) and he still led his team in scoring. In fact, he led his team in scoring in 3 of the 5 playoff years since that time, coming 2nd to Jaromir Jagr once.

Koivu definitely brought his game to another level in the playoffs and I have my doubts as to whether or not Gomez can do the same, but those numbers aren't representative of the disparity IMO.

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Old
08-19-2009, 11:57 AM
  #85
MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyF3ind View Post
While Gomez may be a better player during the regular season, I don't think its fair to say that he is better in the play-offs. Koivu considerably ups his game during the play-offs, whereas Gomez falters in terms of point production.
Not lately, he doesn't. Over the last several years Gomez has been a PPG player in the playoffs.

See this is the problem with career averages, especially of playoff points.

His three first years in the league Gomez was at about 0.5 PPG, same as Koivu. The problem is that Koivu's teams went one round and out, and Gomez's team went to the Stanley Cup Finals, so that's a lot more playoff games on Gomez's resume when he was younger and less effective.

After that, both players were around 1 PPG in the playoffs, in both cases well over their regular season average. However Koivu, because he is older, has had more years as a veteran and a PPG playoff player, which drives his career average up compared to Gomez even though they are, right now, similar in production. Gomez's teams have had more playoff success which balances this out somewhat, but it doesn't compensate for the fact that he's played 72 playoff games in his three first years, before he hit his prime, and Koivu only 17.

Over the last four seasons (everything since the lockout, plus one year before) Koivu has scored 25 points in 25 games, and Gomez 45 points in 42 games. It's really quite comparable.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:00 PM
  #86
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You can't compare the line-ups. They were good yet unlucky last year. They are good now and we'll see their luck. Goaltending and injuries can make or break a team (as it's been aid already)

Don't forget that next year our current additions will be still young while Kovy, Koivu, Lang and Schneider.......

And think about the season 2 years from now. When the Pleks/Lats/Laps/Kosts/Patch/ Dags/Price/Gorges/Subban/Weber will be in their prime and they'll have the mid aged veterans to support them. While Koivu, Kovalev, Lang and Schneider will probably be playing golf...

Time passes and changes everything.

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Old
08-19-2009, 12:19 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange View Post
So much of these comparisons require the new guys to play up to their career year/ceiling. How often has that happened on the habs the last 10 years ?

Gomez = Koivu
What we gain with Gomez is offset by what we lose with Koivu's intangibles. I might be swayed in Gomez's favor because of the age difference, but then the contract kills it.

Cammelleri >= Kovalev
I only give a slight advantage to Cam over Kovalev. Kovy is the better player but Cam is more consistent. It will take some pressure off our more streaky elements.

Gionta = Tanguay
Lateral move imo. We swap playmaking for potential goalscoring.

Spacek = Schneider
I'm not expecting another career year from Spacek.

Gill >= Bouillon
Very slight upgrade over Bouillon. Bouillon was mobile. But considering all our young guns, a veteran presence in the bottom pair is a smart move. I really disliked this move, but I'm slowly warming up to it.

Maxpac < Higgins
Chris was a regular on this team. Max still need to fight for a spot, let alone score 30. This is our biggest downgrade imo.

Moen > Kostopoulos
Definite upgrade. Would of loved to keep Kost on the 4th tho.

Mara < Komisarek
Komo is a defensive beast. He wasn't as much in the second half of the season but he was injured. Mara might be better rounded, but we don't need a rounded D playing with Markov. Markov-Komo is a better pairing than anything we can muster this year.

Weber/ Subban = Brisebois
Kids will make as many mistakes as Brisebois, minus the veteran presence.

The way I see it, we only have a marginal upgrade over last year. The bigger difference will be in the locker room. If they gel as a team, there's potential to do much better than last year. I'm not convinced last year's team could overcome the off ice issues and be a team again.
Oh c'mon, really? Cammalleri only marginally better than Kovalev? Kovalev is not a better player, nor is he consistent. He's the best floater in the league. So glad he's gone. Komo a defensive beast? Not so much anymore. People talk about our new guys playing up to their potential, well I'd like you to give me one reason why i should believe Komo will ever regain his form of 2 years ago. Mara has more to offer right now, and its not like he doesn't come with a pedigree like Komo. He was also a 1st rounder, and a higher one to boot. Higgins was a regular, sure, but only started playing with any confidence when he got put on the 4th line last year. Higgins is marginally a better player than guys like S.Kost, D'agostini and Paccioretty, and thats what made him expendable. GM's make these kind of trades all the time because they're easy moves. Even if Higgins scores 40 goals one day, it will still have been the right move at the time, because Higgins over the span of 4 years hadn't shown any improvement. And believe me, he won't score 40. Spacek is better than Schneider because he play more minutes, is more reliable defensively and is not a downgrade on the PP. All i hear from Buffalo players was that he was great team guy and will be sorely missed. He's definitely one of the most underrated signings by Gainey. I wont even discuss Gill over Bouillon, seems self-explanatory. I guess gionta vs tanguay is a lateral move in a way, but it seems obvious that nobody wants tanguay because of his injury so this question shouldnt even be up for debate--he simply was not coming back, period. I love Koivu, but seriously, Gomez is better. He's on par with koivu in his prime. This seems obvious to me, but maybe we are watching different players. I agree almost completely with Maxpac. Something would have to go drastically wrong for us to be worse than last year.

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Old
08-19-2009, 01:51 PM
  #88
HockeyF3ind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Over the last four seasons (everything since the lockout, plus one year before) Koivu has scored 25 points in 25 games, and Gomez 45 points in 42 games. It's really quite comparable.
Thanks for the info. I realized that the early play-off appearances for Gomez must have brought down the numbers...but those numbers from recent years were very helpful.

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Old
08-19-2009, 02:51 PM
  #89
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How much games Gomez played in the playoffs? and Sako?

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Old
08-19-2009, 03:00 PM
  #90
MathMan
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Originally Posted by couris View Post
How much games Gomez played in the playoffs? and Sako?
Gomez 114, Saku 54.

Gomez has gone to the SCF three times in the first 3 years of his career and that alone acounts for more games than Saku's entire career.

Playoff stats are so volatile, it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions from them. Saku doesn't have a season's worth of playoff games. Even Gomez, who has tons of playoff experience comparatively, really has less than one season and a half.

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08-19-2009, 03:03 PM
  #91
couris
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Gomez 114, Saku 54.

Gomez has gone to the SCF three times in the first 3 years of his career and that alone acounts for more games than Saku's entire career.

Playoff stats are so volatile, it's hard to draw meaningful conclusions from them. Saku doesn't have a season's worth of playoff games. Even Gomez, who has tons of playoff experience comparatively, really has less than one season and a half.
Thanks LeMatheux.

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