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P.K. Subban VS Thomas Hickey

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Old
08-22-2009, 07:28 PM
  #26
Cleatus
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I'm going to do a statistical comparison between the two. I've bolded their best seasons.

PK Subban OHL Regular Season:

2005-06: 52 GP, 5 G, 7 A, 12 PTS, 0.23 PPG, -2 Rating, 70 PIM.
2006-07: 68 GP, 15 G, 41 A, 56 PTS, 0.82 PPG, +13 Rating, 89 PIM.
2007-08: 58 GP, 8 G, 38 A, 46 PTS, 0.79 PPG, +19 Rating, 100 PIM.
2008-09: 56 GP, 14 G, 62 A, 76 PTS, 1.36 PPG, +47 Rating, 94 PIM.

Total: 234 GP, 42 G, 148 A, 190 PTS, 0.81 PPG, +77 Rating, 353 PIM.

PK Subban OHL Playoffs:

2005-06: 3 GP, 0 G, 0 A, 0 PTS, 0 PPG, 0 Rating, 2 PIM.
2006-07: 15 GP, 5 G, 8 A, 13 PTS, 0.87 PPG, +11 Rating, 26 PIM.
2007-08: 21 GP, 8 G, 15 A, 23 PTS, 1.1 PPG, +7 Rating, 28 PIM.
2008-09: 17 GP, 3 G, 12 A, 15 PTS, 0.88 PPG, +6 Rating, 22 PIM.

Total: 56 GP, 16 G, 35 A, 51 PTS, 0.91 PPG, +24 Rating, 78 PIM.

Thomas Hickey WHL Regular Season:

2004-05: 5GP, 2 G, 1 A, 3 PTS, 0.6 PPG, -1 Rating, 6 PIM.
2005-06: 69 GP, 1 G, 27 A, 28 PTS, 0.41 PPG, +2 Rating, 53 PIM.
2006-07: 68 GP, 9 G, 41 A, 50 PTS, 0.74 PPG, +15 Rating, 70 PIM.
2007-08: 63 GP, 11 G, 34 A, 45 PTS, 0.71 PPG, +20 Rating, 49 PIM.
2008-09: 57 GP, 16 G, 35 A, 51 PTS, 0.89 PPG, +37 Rating, 30 PIM.

Total: 262 GP, 39 G, 138 A, 177 PTS, 0.68 PPG, +73 Rating, 208 PIM.

Thomas Hickey WHL Playoffs:

2004-05: No playoffs.
2005-06: 7 GP, 1 G, 3 A, 4 PTS, 0.57 PPG, +2 Rating, 10 PIM.
2006-07: 11 GP, 3 G, 4 A, 7 PTS, 0.64 PPG, -4, 4 PIM.
2007-08: 9 GP, 1 G, 9 A, 10 PTS, 1.1 PPG, 0 Rating, 4 PIM.
2008-09: 5 GP, 2 G, 1 A, 3 PTS, 0.6 PPG, -1 Rating, 4 PIM.

Total: 32 GP, 7 G, 17 A, 24 PTS, 0.75 PPG, -3 Rating, 22 PIM.

Though the WHL is a more defensive league than the OHL, Subban has beaten Hickey in every category (significantly). At this point in their development, the only thing Hickey has on Subban is his 7 games of AHL experience where he put up 7 points (1 G, 6 A, -1 Rating, 2 PIM).

Then again, you could say that Subban's far better WJC performance outdoes Hickey's 7 games in the AHL, and we also haven't seen what Subban can do at the AHL level.

Let's not forget that Hickey was picked a lot earlier than most scouts expected, and if Subban broke out earlier, he would've been a top 10 pick in his draft year (maybe top 5).

My pick is Subban, but I have no idea who will have the better NHL career. I'm a Leafs fan by the way.

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08-22-2009, 07:34 PM
  #27
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I didn't watch either of them except for the World Jrs. where Subban had a better tournament. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to stir crap. Because I don't watch these fellas regularly, I do what most do and read what I can and look at stats. So, here are some stats.

Thomas Hickey
Defense
Born Feb 8 1989 -- Calgary, ALTA
Height 5.10 -- Weight 182 -- Shoots L


Selected by Los Angeles Kings round 1 #4 overall 2007 NHL Entry Draft

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004-05 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 5 2 1 3 6 -- -- -- -- --
2005-06 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 69 1 27 28 53 7 1 3 4 10
2006-07 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 68 9 41 50 70 11 3 4 7 4
2007-08 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 63 11 34 45 49 9 1 9 10 4
2008-09 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 57 16 35 51 30 5 2 1 3 4
2008-09 Manchester Monarchs AHL 7 1 6 7 2 -- -- -- -- --


P.K. Subban
Defense
Born May 13 1989 -- Rexdale, ONT
Height 6.00 -- Weight 202 -- Shoots R


Selected by Montreal Canadiens round 2 #43 overall 2007 NHL Entry Draft

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005-06 Belleville Bulls OHL 52 5 7 12 70 3 0 0 0 2
2006-07 Belleville Bulls OHL 68 15 41 56 89 15 5 8 13 26
2007-08 Belleville Bulls OHL 58 8 38 46 100 21 8 15 23 28
2008-09 Belleville Bulls OHL 56 14 62 76 94 17 3 12 15 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that stats aren't the only thing when it comes to the game of hockey, and I can understand those that go with Hickey, but I don't understand how it could be done "Easily". Why the comments about taking Hickey "Easily"? Those comments just seem to be thrown in for either amusement or irritation. The only thing that I've seen in my limited viewing of both players and looking at the stats, is that Hickey was drafted higher. It certainly doesn't seem like an "easy" choice to me.

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08-22-2009, 07:38 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
I'm going to do a statistical comparison between the two. I've bolded their best seasons.

PK Subban OHL Regular Season:

2005-06: 52 GP, 5 G, 7 A, 12 PTS, 0.23 PPG, -2 Rating, 70 PIM.
2006-07: 68 GP, 15 G, 41 A, 56 PTS, 0.82 PPG, +13 Rating, 89 PIM.
2007-08: 58 GP, 8 G, 38 A, 46 PTS, 0.79 PPG, +19 Rating, 100 PIM.
2008-09: 56 GP, 14 G, 62 A, 76 PTS, 1.36 PPG, +47 Rating, 94 PIM.

Total: 234 GP, 42 G, 148 A, 190 PTS, 0.81 PPG, +77 Rating, 353 PIM.

PK Subban OHL Playoffs:

2005-06: 3 GP, 0 G, 0 A, 0 PTS, 0 PPG, 0 Rating, 2 PIM.
2006-07: 15 GP, 5 G, 8 A, 13 PTS, 0.87 PPG, +11 Rating, 26 PIM.
2007-08: 21 GP, 8 G, 15 A, 23 PTS, 1.1 PPG, +7 Rating, 28 PIM.
2008-09: 17 GP, 3 G, 12 A, 15 PTS, 0.88 PPG, +6 Rating, 22 PIM.

Total: 56 GP, 16 G, 35 A, 51 PTS, 0.91 PPG, +24 Rating, 78 PIM.

Thomas Hickey WHL Regular Season:

2004-05: 5GP, 2 G, 1 A, 3 PTS, 0.6 PPG, -1 Rating, 6 PIM.
2005-06: 69 GP, 1 G, 27 A, 28 PTS, 0.41 PPG, +2 Rating, 53 PIM.
2006-07: 68 GP, 9 G, 41 A, 50 PTS, 0.74 PPG, +15 Rating, 70 PIM.
2007-08: 63 GP, 11 G, 34 A, 45 PTS, 0.71 PPG, +20 Rating, 49 PIM.
2008-09: 57 GP, 16 G, 35 A, 51 PTS, 0.89 PPG, +37 Rating, 30 PIM.

Total: 262 GP, 39 G, 138 A, 177 PTS, 0.68 PPG, +73 Rating, 208 PIM.

Thomas Hickey WHL Playoffs:

2004-05: No playoffs.
2005-06: 7 GP, 1 G, 3 A, 4 PTS, 0.57 PPG, +2 Rating, 10 PIM.
2006-07: 11 GP, 3 G, 4 A, 7 PTS, 0.64 PPG, -4, 4 PIM.
2007-08: 9 GP, 1 G, 9 A, 10 PTS, 1.1 PPG, 0 Rating, 4 PIM.
2008-09: 5 GP, 2 G, 1 A, 3 PTS, 0.6 PPG, -1 Rating, 4 PIM.

Total: 32 GP, 7 G, 17 A, 24 PTS, 0.75 PPG, -3 Rating, 22 PIM.

Though the WHL is a more defensive league than the OHL, Subban has beaten Hickey in every category (significantly). At this point in their development, the only thing Hickey has on Subban is his 7 games of AHL experience where he put up 7 points (1 G, 6 A, -1 Rating, 2 PIM).

Then again, you could say that Subban's far better WJC performance outdoes Hickey's 7 games in the AHL, and we also haven't seen what Subban can do at the AHL level.

Let's not forget that Hickey was picked a lot earlier than most scouts expected, and if Subban broke out earlier, he would've been a top 10 pick in his draft year (maybe top 5).

My pick is Subban, but I have no idea who will have the better NHL career. I'm a Leafs fan by the way.

I know that this isn't included in the stats, but Hickey played for a really abysmal Seattle Thunderbirds team in 08-09.

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08-22-2009, 07:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
, if we would only judge them on the last WJC this thread would be a joke, Hickey had a terrible tournament and PK was defensmen of the tournament, seriously put down your anti-Habs goggles for a second. Subban had 76 points last year while Hickey had 51, Subban is faster, has the hardest slapshot between the 2 and was named the OHL's 2nd best DEFENSIVE defensmen. Everybody here talking about Habs homers should definately start learning before posting.
No he wasn't.

That said, I think it's closer than a lot of people are making it out to be (still putting Hickey ahead, though).

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08-22-2009, 07:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mr Irreverent View Post
I know that this isn't included in the stats, but Hickey played for a really abysmal Seattle Thunderbirds team in 08-09.
The ones who are affected significantly by the quality of their team are goaltenders and support players. The production of a team's star players is really affected much, if at all.

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08-22-2009, 07:47 PM
  #31
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Hickey 'cause Subban is a Habs prospect. I want to have the chance to take that poll again once/if Subban is traded 'cause then it will be Subban. (See "McDonagh is one of the most overrated Habs prospect" to "the Gomez trade is one of the worst in the history since McDonagh, one of the greatest d-man prospect was included in the trade".....and tons of other stories like that).

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08-22-2009, 07:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Hickey 'cause Subban is a Habs prospect. I want to have the chance to take that poll again once/if Subban is traded 'cause then it will be Subban. (See "McDonagh is one of the most overrated Habs prospect" to "the Gomez trade is one of the worst in the history since McDonagh, one of the greatest d-man prospect was included in the trade".....and tons of other stories like that).
Or because many people think that Hickey is a better prospect

People criticize Hickey for his WJC and praise Subban for his, but from what I saw, Hickey had more of a pro game than Subban did.

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08-22-2009, 07:58 PM
  #33
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I like Subban alot, but Hickey is going to be a star. 7 points in 7 games for Manchester at the end of the year was good stuff on Hickeys part. So was the 22 game point streak he had in the WHL after Christmas.

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08-22-2009, 08:02 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
I didn't watch either of them except for the World Jrs. where Subban had a better tournament. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to stir crap. Because I don't watch these fellas regularly, I do what most do and read what I can and look at stats. So, here are some stats.

Thomas Hickey
Defense
Born Feb 8 1989 -- Calgary, ALTA
Height 5.10 -- Weight 182 -- Shoots L


Selected by Los Angeles Kings round 1 #4 overall 2007 NHL Entry Draft

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004-05 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 5 2 1 3 6 -- -- -- -- --
2005-06 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 69 1 27 28 53 7 1 3 4 10
2006-07 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 68 9 41 50 70 11 3 4 7 4
2007-08 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 63 11 34 45 49 9 1 9 10 4
2008-09 Seattle Thunderbirds WHL 57 16 35 51 30 5 2 1 3 4
2008-09 Manchester Monarchs AHL 7 1 6 7 2 -- -- -- -- --


P.K. Subban
Defense
Born May 13 1989 -- Rexdale, ONT
Height 6.00 -- Weight 202 -- Shoots R


Selected by Montreal Canadiens round 2 #43 overall 2007 NHL Entry Draft

--- Regular Season --- ---- Playoffs ----
Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005-06 Belleville Bulls OHL 52 5 7 12 70 3 0 0 0 2
2006-07 Belleville Bulls OHL 68 15 41 56 89 15 5 8 13 26
2007-08 Belleville Bulls OHL 58 8 38 46 100 21 8 15 23 28
2008-09 Belleville Bulls OHL 56 14 62 76 94 17 3 12 15 22
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand that stats aren't the only thing when it comes to the game of hockey, and I can understand those that go with Hickey, but I don't understand how it could be done "Easily". Why the comments about taking Hickey "Easily"? Those comments just seem to be thrown in for either amusement or irritation. The only thing that I've seen in my limited viewing of both players and looking at the stats, is that Hickey was drafted higher. It certainly doesn't seem like an "easy" choice to me.
Well, I'm not even looking at stats, I think Hickey is going to be a great player, and a safer choice. Plus 37 on a pretty bad team, he was the right choice as captain. Our entire defence (WJC) was struggling. Hopefully things change this year.

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08-22-2009, 08:02 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Or because many people think that Hickey is a better prospect

People criticize Hickey for his WJC and praise Subban for his, but from what I saw, Hickey had more of a pro game than Subban did.
How much have you watched both? I have never seen either of them at a live game, did you happen to catch any?

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08-22-2009, 08:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Or because many people think that Hickey is a better prospect

People criticize Hickey for his WJC and praise Subban for his, but from what I saw, Hickey had more of a pro game than Subban did.
LoL, how is that even possible? Hickey was nowhere near as good as Subban at the WJC, so how did he play a more "pro" game?

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08-22-2009, 08:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie View Post
How much have you watched both? I have never seen either of them at a live game, did you happen to catch any?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
LoL, how is that even possible? Hickey was nowhere near as good as Subban at the WJC, so how did he play a more "pro" game?
I am basing this on the WJC, which I did watch.

Because some players play like they junior players, and dominate, while other players play a pro-game, and aren't as flashy on the ice as others.

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08-22-2009, 08:20 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
I am basing this on the WJC, which I did watch.

Because some players play like they junior players, and dominate, while other players play a pro-game, and aren't as flashy on the ice as others.
That is a little flimsy justification I think. If a player is flashy and dominates, he only plays well against Jr. Players, but if you play and don't do well in the tournament and aren't flashy, you'll be a solid pro player? Let's face it, Subban outplayed Hickey at the WJC and by a fair margin. You didn't watch these guys anymore than most have, so like myself, you have no idea who will be a better player, but your "Gut" feeling is that Hickey will be better. Hopefully your gut will prove out for the Kings, because basically, your making the same hope that most are, without a solid foundation to base your thinking on.

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08-22-2009, 08:23 PM
  #39
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Going with Subban here. Hickey left a very poor impression on me during the WJCs (didn't like his decision-making, strength, lack of dynamism, or skating relative to his size), and while Subban made some dumbass choices (ill-advised pinches, gratuitous spin-o-ramas), he at least showed off his raw tools and the ability to be a difference-maker.

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08-22-2009, 08:44 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadie View Post
That is a little flimsy justification I think. If a player is flashy and dominates, he only plays well against Jr. Players, but if you play and don't do well in the tournament and aren't flashy, you'll be a solid pro player? Let's face it, Subban outplayed Hickey at the WJC and by a fair margin. You didn't watch these guys anymore than most have, so like myself, you have no idea who will be a better player, but your "Gut" feeling is that Hickey will be better. Hopefully your gut will prove out for the Kings, because basically, your making the same hope that most are, without a solid foundation to base your thinking on.
That's what you took from it, I took something else.

I do feel that people still hold it against Hickey that he was A) a suprise/early selection and B) outplayed by Subban at the WJC.

Time will prove the Kings right

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08-22-2009, 08:49 PM
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Hickey, Easy.
Subban, easy.

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08-22-2009, 09:00 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Because some players play like they junior players, and dominate, while other players play a pro-game, and aren't as flashy on the ice as others.
I didn't even notice Hickey out there. In some cases, that's a good thing, but his -3 rating says otherwise. I know +/- rating is an overrated stat, but seriously, a minus on team Canada? I think that indicates that he had a less than impressive tournament.

And your pro/junior logic is seriously flawed. You made me laugh when you said that.

Quote:
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That is a little flimsy justification I think. If a player is flashy and dominates, he only plays well against Jr. Players, but if you play and don't do well in the tournament and aren't flashy, you'll be a solid pro player? Let's face it, Subban outplayed Hickey at the WJC and by a fair margin. You didn't watch these guys anymore than most have, so like myself, you have no idea who will be a better player, but your "Gut" feeling is that Hickey will be better. Hopefully your gut will prove out for the Kings, because basically, your making the same hope that most are, without a solid foundation to base your thinking on.
Agreed.

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08-22-2009, 09:05 PM
  #43
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I didn't even notice Hickey out there. In some cases, that's a good thing, but his -3 rating says otherwise. I know +/- rating is an overrated stat, but seriously, a minus on team Canada? I think that indicates that he had a less than impressive tournament.
Or, that the coach used Hickey against the other teams' best players.

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08-22-2009, 09:06 PM
  #44
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The ones who are affected significantly by the quality of their team are goaltenders and support players. The production of a team's star players is really affected much, if at all.

Well that's just like, your opinion, man.


Needless to say I disagree. Hickey ate up minutes for his Thunderbirds team and he had very little support.

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08-22-2009, 09:06 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleatus View Post
I didn't even notice Hickey out there. In some cases, that's a good thing, but his -3 rating says otherwise. I know +/- rating is an overrated stat, but seriously, a minus on team Canada? I think that indicates that he had a less than impressive tournament.

And your pro/junior logic is seriously flawed. You made me laugh when you said that.



Agreed.
Fine, I can also cite that Hickey has actually had pro experience against men, and has dominated, short as it was albeit. Has Subban?

And I would like to remind you that Hickey is a substance over style player. Those players don't benefit from these kinds of tournaments (see Teubert as well). Not every player benefits from tournaments such as these (consistent meat and potatoes type players don't do as well as flashy guys)

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08-22-2009, 09:08 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Or, that the coach used Hickey against the other teams' best players.
I'm not too sure about that. Didn't Subban get more minutes?

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08-22-2009, 09:12 PM
  #47
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I'm not too sure about that. Didn't Subban get more minutes?
So the argument here is that if you have ONE good WJC tournament you are going to be an all-star in the NHL???

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08-22-2009, 09:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
That is a little flimsy justification I think. If a player is flashy and dominates, he only plays well against Jr. Players, but if you play and don't do well in the tournament and aren't flashy, you'll be a solid pro player? Let's face it, Subban outplayed Hickey at the WJC and by a fair margin. You didn't watch these guys anymore than most have, so like myself, you have no idea who will be a better player, but your "Gut" feeling is that Hickey will be better. Hopefully your gut will prove out for the Kings, because basically, your making the same hope that most are, without a solid foundation to base your thinking on.
Dominated? Do you mean "hot-dogged?" My opinion is that if PK Subban played the style he did in the WJC on a majority of NHL teams, he'd be riding the bench. Tons of poor decisions, broken end-to-end rushes and flashy plays that led to nothing. But then again, when your not facing your opponents best players, nor are you relied upon to be the "shut down" defensive unit, you can play that way. Nobody's arguing that Thomas Hickey had a great tournament, but I think it's silly to use the WJC as the only measuring stick.

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08-22-2009, 09:14 PM
  #49
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I'm not too sure about that. Didn't Subban get more minutes?
I don't know.

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08-22-2009, 09:16 PM
  #50
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LoL, how is that even possible? Hickey was nowhere near as good as Subban at the WJC, so how did he play a more "pro" game?
People like to make up ideas to defend theirs.

Like all the **** Mike Green gets when he really is a fantastic defenseman. Not a typical shutdown guy, but very effective in his own way.

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