Dominated? Do you mean "hot-dogged?" My opinion is that if PK Subban played the style he did in the WJC on a majority of NHL teams, he'd be riding the bench. Tons of poor decisions, broken end-to-end rushes and flashy plays that led to nothing. But then again, when your not facing your opponents best players, nor are you relied upon to be the "shut down" defensive unit, you can play that way. Nobody's arguing that Thomas Hickey had a great tournament, but I think it's silly to use the WJC as the only measuring stick.
Fine, I can also cite that Hickey has actually had pro experience against men, and has dominated, short as it was albeit. Has Subban?
And I would like to remind you that Hickey is a substance over style player. Those players don't benefit from these kinds of tournaments (see Teubert as well). Not every player benefits from tournaments such as these (consistent meat and potatoes type players don't do as well as flashy guys)
Hickey played 7 games in the AHL and did well, but I'd hardly call that pro experience. That's barely putting your foot in the water. We'll see how each player does in the AHL next year (maybe one or both of them will make the NHL).
So the argument here is that if you have ONE good WJC tournament you are going to be an all-star in the NHL???
See my post where I compared their junior stats. Subban has beaten Hickey in every category. I understand that Hickey plays in the WHL (a more defensive league), but Subban beat his stats by a significant amount in the OHL.
Hickey played 7 games in the AHL and did well, but I'd hardly call that pro experience. That's barely putting your foot in the water. We'll see how each player does in the AHL next year (maybe one or both of them will make the NHL).
Well Manchester was still clearly in the playoff hunt during those games, so it wasn't exactly like he was only beating out chopped liver (he played on the same team as Tom Priessing ) but since you make the fair presumption that only 7 games aren't really a good enough sample size for pro-experience, I suppose that this point is also irrelevant.
I think that Hickey is going to go into the AHL and do very well, and earn his way onto the Kings before the end of the season. As unfair as it seems, (and as overplaying it as others are), Subban still has to get rid of the tag that he is all sizzle and no substance. I would say that he has a lot more to prove than Thomas at the pro-level.
Well Manchester was still clearly in the playoff hunt during those games, so it wasn't exactly like he was only beating out chopped liver (he played on the same team as Tom Priessing ) but since you make the fair presumption that only 7 games aren't really a good enough sample size for pro-experience, I suppose that this point is also irrelevant.
I think that Hickey is going to go into the AHL and do very well, and earn his way onto the Kings before the end of the season. As unfair as it seems, (and as overplaying it as others are), Subban still has to get rid of the tag that he is all sizzle and no substance. I would say that he has a lot more to prove than Thomas at the pro-level.
And that tag comes from where exactly?
I'm pretty sure if you talked to his coach and the Team Canada coaches, they'd tell you he's a fine hockey player. And a great prospect.
I don't think you can make it in Team Canada and dominate the OHL by being 'no substance' as you put it. Either you're gifted or you're not.
See my post where I compared their junior stats. Subban has beaten Hickey in every category. I understand that Hickey plays in the WHL (a more defensive league), but Subban beat his stats by a significant amount in the OHL.
It still proves nothing really because as you said they are different leagues. Hickey and Subban will both be NHL regulars, why are we making such a fuss over this?
I won't really give Subban any credit until he does something at the pro level. He, to me, is the classic case of a guy who is a junior player and not a pro player. I just don't see him translating to be a top flight defenseman. He's very mistake prone.
We'll see. But I can't justify anyone calling him an elite prospect until he can prove that he's not just a junior star.
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I won't really give Subban any credit until he does something at the pro level. He, to me, is the classic case of a guy who is a junior player and not a pro player. I just don't see him translating to be a top flight defenseman. He's very mistake prone.
We'll see. But I can't justify anyone calling him an elite prospect until he can prove that he's not just a junior star.
so by that logic, you cant give a single player in junior hockey credit.
Dominated? Do you mean "hot-dogged?" My opinion is that if PK Subban played the style he did in the WJC on a majority of NHL teams, he'd be riding the bench. Tons of poor decisions, broken end-to-end rushes and flashy plays that led to nothing. But then again, when your not facing your opponents best players, nor are you relied upon to be the "shut down" defensive unit, you can play that way. Nobody's arguing that Thomas Hickey had a great tournament, but I think it's silly to use the WJC as the only measuring stick.
I take it that English isn't your first language? Where in my post did I say he dominated? Easy, I didn't. I said he outplayed him. Also, if you read the posts before, I also said that have a limited viewing of both players. I'm pretty sure that you do too. You can make the argument that it was only one tournament and it would be silly to use it has a measuring stick. Fair enough, but like I said before most of us only have that a few YouTube videos or the media to find out about these players. We put alot of emphasis on watching the WJC. Its the only time you get to see the elite players, and Subban looked like a second round steal and Hickey looked like a questionable number 4 overall pick. Who knows, Hickey could be the best DMan in the game in 5 years, maybe it'll be Subban. No one knows at this point how it will turn out, even if there are those in this thread with the ability to predict the future.
That's what you took from it, I took something else.
I do feel that people still hold it against Hickey that he was A) a suprise/early selection and B) outplayed by Subban at the WJC.
Time will prove the Kings right
Personally, I don't hold anything against Hickey. Maybe the Kings saw something in him that other teams didn't. I could care less where he got drafted. If he ends up a star, the Kings will look real good, if not, that's the chances you take with any 18 yr old.
I won't really give Subban any credit until he does something at the pro level. He, to me, is the classic case of a guy who is a junior player and not a pro player. I just don't see him translating to be a top flight defenseman. He's very mistake prone.
We'll see. But I can't justify anyone calling him an elite prospect until he can prove that he's not just a junior star.
Most offensive defencemen at the Jr. Hockey age make defensive mistakes. If they didn't, we'd just call them Bobby Orr and leave it at that. Fact is, all yong DMen make mistakes, but it's a lot easier teaching defense than it is offense. Your standards for giving credit are quite high, did Staal receive no credit from you before he played pro hockey?
Of course Subban is going to outscore Hickey. Stats are pointless. WJR? There's a reason why Hickey was named Captain. He would dependable in all situations. Subban was only a PP specialist.
Even then, when you look at the stats. It's relatively close despite Hickey being more of a role player.
PK Subban will probably be at best a 5/6 PP specialist /bust to europe.
vs
Thomas Hickey who will likely be a top 4 defense man in the NHL.
No need to debate, Just watch. Watch them next year. Hickey already put up 7 points in 7 AHL games, which is already an impressive feat. Let see how Subban faces men in the AHL rather than boys who can't match against speed.
I take it that English isn't your first language? Where in my post did I say he dominated? Easy, I didn't. I said he outplayed him. Also, if you read the posts before, I also said that have a limited viewing of both players. I'm pretty sure that you do too. You can make the argument that it was only one tournament and it would be silly to use it has a measuring stick. Fair enough, but like I said before most of us only have that a few YouTube videos or the media to find out about these players. We put alot of emphasis on watching the WJC. Its the only time you get to see the elite players, and Subban looked like a second round steal and Hickey looked like a questionable number 4 overall pick. Who knows, Hickey could be the best DMan in the game in 5 years, maybe it'll be Subban. No one knows at this point how it will turn out, even if there are those in this thread with the ability to predict the future.
I do firmly believe that the tournament lends itself to flashy skilled players rather than solid substantive players. I do believe that the Kings drafted Hickey with little intention of him becoming an explosive offensive defenesman, but rather, a solid, well-skating, smooth, effective meat-and potatoes 2-way defenseman. I dont think Hickey, due to the way he plays, would benefit from such a tournament.
Hickey is closer. Better defensively. Skating is equal so I dont see how some posters feel otherwise. Although I dont think Hickey's offensive skill set will translate to the NHL. He's a 30-40 pt guy as he hasnt shown that greediness that is req'd to get pts in the NHL.
Subban has a higher ceiling but is average defensively. His positioning and timing of his offense will dictate his future. Not likely to be a top 2 d-man but certainly a shot at top 4. His offensive skills can shine at the NHL (maybe not the rushing but the PP QB talent). Everyone points to the spinaramas but watch him on the PP, he's very creative. Good point shot (much better than Hickey's).
Surprised to see absolutely no mention of Hickey's character or leadership abilities thus far in this thread, which, in my opinion is his most valuable asset to the Kings. Team Captain of Canada's WJC team is no small feat. How he played is another story that's been beaten to death thus far.
I do firmly believe that the tournament lends itself to flashy skilled players rather than solid substantive players. I do believe that the Kings drafted Hickey with little intention of him becoming an explosive offensive defenesman, but rather, a solid, well-skating, smooth, effective meat-and potatoes 2-way defenseman. I dont think Hickey, due to the way he plays, would benefit from such a tournament.
Fair enough, I can certainly see where you're coming from. My intention when I first started to post in this thread was to question why it was "Easy" to choose one over the other. I'm not a PK fanboy, but I hope he does make the team one day, just so I can listen to the interviews.
Fair enough, I can certainly see where you're coming from. My intention when I first started to post in this thread was to question why it was "Easy" to choose one over the other. I'm not a PK fanboy, but I hope he does make the team one day, just so I can listen to the interviews.
Yeah, Duklanation covers it well. I would not be suprised (if he made the NHL and did as well as his potential dictates) if Subban put up more points than Hickey, but I do believe that Hickey will be the better overall player. But that's not a firsthand source, so I dont know how reliable that is
so by that logic, you cant give a single player in junior hockey credit.
That's not really true. The thing is, Subban doesn't really compare well with most NHL defenders. There just aren't many examples I can think of of guys who played like him in juniors and truly succeeded in the NHL.
He's a really interesting prospect, but I just don't know what to make of him at the pro level.
Of course Subban is going to outscore Hickey. Stats are pointless. WJR? There's a reason why Hickey was named Captain. He would dependable in all situations. Subban was only a PP specialist.
Even then, when you look at the stats. It's relatively close despite Hickey being more of a role player.
PK Subban will probably be at best a 5/6 PP specialist /bust to europe.
vs
Thomas Hickey who will likely be a top 4 defense man in the NHL.
No need to debate, Just watch. Watch them next year. Hickey already put up 7 points in 7 AHL games, which is already an impressive feat. Let see how Subban faces men in the AHL rather than boys who can't match against speed.
Subban is far from one-dimensional....he hits...his defensive game has improved alot from his draft year as well. It's not easy getting around him at all.
And how was P.K. a PP specialist at the WJ? He played every situation in the most important games of the tourney (U.S., Semi's and GMG)..
But I love your crystal ball. How many times have you seen him play? I'm guessing not too often.
And wait...stats are pointless? Oh I see..ok..so it was pointless that Ovechkin led the league in goals. Of course, he isn't a good goal scorer...what am I thinking..
) but since you make the fair presumption that only 7 games aren't really a good enough sample size for pro-experience, I suppose that this point is also irrelevant.
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