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P.K. Subban VS Thomas Hickey

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Old
08-23-2009, 12:24 AM
  #76
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What QMJHL dmen become anything close to a reliable NHL dman?

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08-23-2009, 12:25 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SomE View Post
What QMJHL dmen become anything close to a reliable NHL dman?
What does that have to do with anything?

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08-23-2009, 12:29 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SomE View Post
What QMJHL dmen become anything close to a reliable NHL dman?
Kris Letang?
Marc-Edouard Vlasic?
Francois Beauchemin?

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Old
08-23-2009, 12:34 AM
  #79
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i think they are fairly equal. but in-terms of being good 2-way D-Men, i'll take Hickey

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08-23-2009, 12:54 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
That's not really true. The thing is, Subban doesn't really compare well with most NHL defenders. There just aren't many examples I can think of of guys who played like him in juniors and truly succeeded in the NHL.

He's a really interesting prospect, but I just don't know what to make of him at the pro level.
And saying his game may not translate is fine. I don't disagree with with that. If that was your argument and you brought some valid points, thats where you should have stopped.

Not giving a JUNIOR PLAYER credit for not succeeding as a pro yet is beyond ridiculous bordering absolutely stupid.

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08-23-2009, 12:57 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SomE View Post
What QMJHL dmen become anything close to a reliable NHL dman?
Are we assuming that because Subban is a Montreal prospect thus he plays in the Q?

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08-23-2009, 01:00 AM
  #82
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I'd take Hickey.

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08-23-2009, 01:08 AM
  #83
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Apparently a lot of poor Montreal fans seem to think the question was about who had a better WJC's... as for who is the better prospect? Hickey. And it's not too terribly close for me.

And I'm not a Kings fan, for the record.

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08-23-2009, 01:42 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Are we assuming that because Subban is a Montreal prospect thus he plays in the Q?
Yup! Honest mistake

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Old
08-23-2009, 02:40 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
That's not really true. The thing is, Subban doesn't really compare well with most NHL defenders. There just aren't many examples I can think of of guys who played like him in juniors and truly succeeded in the NHL.

He's a really interesting prospect, but I just don't know what to make of him at the pro level.
Mike Green might be the closest. You know, a guy who just goes where ever the **** he wants.

All I've seen of Hickey lately was at the World Juniors and he sucked.

Let them play some NHL games before we judge.

Subban only a pp specialist ? I believe that was Ellis. Subban played in all situations as well.

Hfboards, I love this place! Hickey regressed, but he's still far superior to Subban ? Sure, you might be annoyed at hearing Subban's name because of other habs fans. And you might hate the habs just because of some annoying fans, but at least try and put that behind you.

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Originally Posted by Mr Irreverent View Post
Where's the poll?

I'm taking Hickey only because he's a better skater.
There's no LA bias in this place at all.

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08-23-2009, 02:40 AM
  #86
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Hickey no question

Subban's stats are obviously better but Hickey has been underrated ever since the WJC when he didn't play his best. I would bet money half the people who have posted in this thread are basing 90% or higher of their opinion on him just on his play in the WJC.

Had 51 points in 57 games for Seattle, the next closest defenseman had 21 points. The dub is a more tight league than the OHL, harder to get points in. I watched him carry that team into the playoffs. He was friggin plus 37, the next closest player was plus 16. The stats lie sometimes but there is no way in hell those do, proves he's all-around dominant and a top 20 prospect in the game. And unlike a certain Canadien's prospect he has pro experience. He put up a PPG in his time with the Monarchs in the AHL.

Subban is all flash, he pulls off a pretty move and the fans cheer, the move later goes on the highlight show after the game, what they don't show is the 3-5 other flashy moves he pulled that didn't work out as well. His game is full of holes like cheese, he's all-offense and no defense. If he wants to succeed in the NHL he'll have to buckle up defensively and completely alter his play. Whether he can do that I'm not so sure.

And a note: People aren't hating on Subban because he is a Habs prospect or because he was selected in the second round while Hickey was picked top 5, we simply believe Hickey is flat out better. The sooner you get that through your heads the better, the whining is getting old.

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08-23-2009, 03:22 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Mike Green might be the closest. You know, a guy who just goes where ever the **** he wants.

All I've seen of Hickey lately was at the World Juniors and he sucked.

Let them play some NHL games before we judge.

Subban only a pp specialist ? I believe that was Ellis. Subban played in all situations as well.

Hfboards, I love this place! Hickey regressed, but he's still far superior to Subban ? Sure, you might be annoyed at hearing Subban's name because of other habs fans. And you might hate the habs just because of some annoying fans, but at least try and put that behind you.



There's no LA bias in this place at all.
So based on his play in one tournament hes regressed?

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Old
08-23-2009, 04:40 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
Hickey no question

Subban's stats are obviously better but Hickey has been underrated ever since the WJC when he didn't play his best. I would bet money half the people who have posted in this thread are basing 90% or higher of their opinion on him just on his play in the WJC.

Had 51 points in 57 games for Seattle, the next closest defenseman had 21 points. The dub is a more tight league than the OHL, harder to get points in. I watched him carry that team into the playoffs. He was friggin plus 37, the next closest player was plus 16. The stats lie sometimes but there is no way in hell those do, proves he's all-around dominant and a top 20 prospect in the game. And unlike a certain Canadien's prospect he has pro experience. He put up a PPG in his time with the Monarchs in the AHL.
Actually, what is interesting is that while Hickey was +37 on his team, there was only ONE other defenseman who was even positive, and he was only a +1. Hickey dominated. No question.

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08-23-2009, 05:53 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
Hickey no question

Subban's stats are obviously better but Hickey has been underrated ever since the WJC when he didn't play his best. I would bet money half the people who have posted in this thread are basing 90% or higher of their opinion on him just on his play in the WJC.

Had 51 points in 57 games for Seattle, the next closest defenseman had 21 points. The dub is a more tight league than the OHL, harder to get points in. I watched him carry that team into the playoffs. He was friggin plus 37, the next closest player was plus 16. The stats lie sometimes but there is no way in hell those do, proves he's all-around dominant and a top 20 prospect in the game. And unlike a certain Canadien's prospect he has pro experience. He put up a PPG in his time with the Monarchs in the AHL.
I'm not going to talk about the rest of the post but you make some interesting points here.

Subban's closest competitor on the blueline for Belleville was Lalonde (a year younger than Subban) who had stats of:

66gp 19g 34a 53pts +29 - Regular season
17gp 3g 9a 12pts +2 - Playoffs
Made the Eastern Conferance All-Stars team along with Subban.

Hickey's closest competitor on Seattle's blueline was Acoslaste (slightly older than Hickey) who had stats of:

70gp 7g 14a 21pts -15 - Regular season
5gp 1g 1a 2pts -1 - Playoffs

Obviously Hickey played on a weaker team than Subban so you would expect him to have a greater difference between his nearest competitor but then again you must think that Subban playing on a better team has more help putting up points, getting a better +\- and more help from his partner defensively. With these things taken into account i think it's hard to take the stats at face value. In the end i'd take Hickey just because as a gut feeling i think he'll be better. However, that is not to say that Subban will be bad and the difference between the two will likely not end up being as large as it was on draft day.

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Old
08-23-2009, 06:03 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Zim View Post
I'm not going to talk about the rest of the post but you make some interesting points here.

Subban's closest competitor on the blueline for Belleville was Lalonde (a year younger than Subban) who had stats of:

66gp 19g 34a 53pts +29 - Regular season
17gp 3g 9a 12pts +2 - Playoffs
Made the Eastern Conferance All-Stars team along with Subban.

Hickey's closest competitor on Seattle's blueline was Acoslaste (slightly older than Hickey) who had stats of:

70gp 7g 14a 21pts -15 - Regular season
5gp 1g 1a 2pts -1 - Playoffs

Obviously Hickey played on a weaker team than Subban so you would expect him to have a greater difference between his nearest competitor but then again you must think that Subban playing on a better team has more help putting up points, getting a better +\- and more help from his partner defensively. With these things taken into account i think it's hard to take the stats at face value. In the end i'd take Hickey just because as a gut feeling i think he'll be better. However, that is not to say that Subban will be bad and the difference between the two will likely not end up being as large as it was on draft day.
Subban didn't play with Lalonde on the PP, even strength, PK, etc...so throw him out of the equation. He played with Nick Pageau for much of the year..

I'm not arguing Hickey is better. He should be as he is the more complete player at this point. But for those saying Subban is "all offense" really need to watch him play these days. He's got alot of offensive potential...but his positioning has improved alot and because of his skating ability, he has become tough to get around. He showed on the national stage exactly what he's been doing for Belleville. People don't realize that he takes the risks he does...because he's quick enough to get back..will that change? Of course...and it will be an adjustment..one he has gone on record saying that he will make that adjustment and play a bit safer game.

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08-23-2009, 06:10 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by chaosrevolver View Post
Subban didn't play with Lalonde on the PP, even strength, PK, etc...so throw him out of the equation. He played with Nick Pageau for much of the year..
I never said Subban played with Lalonde. However, most people seem to be using stats to say Subban is better than Hickey but you can look at Lalonde's stats for Belleville as a 19 year old and you can see why some people may have an issue with Subban's gaudy numbers. I mean if Lalonde (who isn't a top-prospect) can put up those numbers as a 19 year old what would Hickey have done on the same team as a 20 year old?

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Old
08-23-2009, 06:19 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Zim View Post
I never said Subban played with Lalonde. However, most people seem to be using stats to say Subban is better than Hickey but you can look at Lalonde's stats for Belleville as a 19 year old and you can see why some people may have an issue with Subban's gaudy numbers. I mean if Lalonde (who isn't a top-prospect) can put up those numbers as a 19 year old what would Hickey have done on the same team as a 20 year old?
Meh, for what it's worth Lalonde played with alot of Belleville's best forwards and they used Subban with the 2nd liners alot of time on even strength.

Also...Lalonde (3rd rounder) is a pretty underrated prospect these days and will be one of the best defenseman in the OHL this season but I do see your point. I do think he's as good offensively as Hickey though...certainly on talent. Defensively, Hickey is more polished right now with or without the sub-par performance at the world juniors.

The other thing is that Subban made alot of the players around him better. I'm not disagreeing that the Bulls were better than the Thunderbirds...but without Subban...the Bulls wouldn't have been the team they were. Yes, they would've still won...probably alot...but offensively they just wouldn't be near as good. He's the PP QB...and well he does a hell of a job with that responsibility. He's also one of our best penalty killers...imagine that eh? A "no defense" defenseman who's a great penalty killer...I wonder if that's why he was named the 2nd best defenseman defensively in the Eastern Conference. Even strength, the guy is a machine...can find any of our faster wingers and with the big ice in Belleville it creates alot of room to work with.

Just kinda how I see things as unbiased I can..Hickey is better but I don't know if he will be better. No one knows that for sure.

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Old
08-23-2009, 06:40 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Or because many people think that Hickey is a better prospect

People criticize Hickey for his WJC and praise Subban for his, but from what I saw, Hickey had more of a pro game than Subban did.
From what you saw at WJC's????...Seriously, GIVE UR HEAD A DAMN SHAKE. When the tourney began Quinn tried to give Hickey top minutes against opponents top guns. But this changed in part because of US game, but moreso during Canada Rus. On one play Hickey makes a brutal turnover in neutral zone. Then he overskates puck inside T.C's blue. An opportunistic Ruskie says thank u very much and slams bicuit in basket.

OK Quinn's seen more than enough. No more top minutes for Hickey vs. top snipers. That job ( hence forth ) goes to twin towers led by Myers. With PK also getting top minutes in a more offensive role ( pretty much ) from the get go...as well as top billing on pp teamed with Ellis...( NB* our pp ended up with a Whopping fifty percent success rate, even with PK playing a VERY High Risk rover role )

Good Calls Quinn= A friggen +++...Otherwise Team Canada = TOAST !


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08-23-2009, 06:54 AM
  #94
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These threads are so pointless, just *****in' and dissin' by people who thinks they know what they're talking about (for the most part, some here really know).

IMO, these are 2 great young D prospects, and each one will have to prove themselves in the NHL before we can judge anything. Hickey seems to be developing a better all around game, but Subban might very well be an offensive dynamo...

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08-23-2009, 06:58 AM
  #95
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Dominated? Do you mean "hot-dogged?" My opinion is that if PK Subban played the style he did in the WJC on a majority of NHL teams, he'd be riding the bench. Tons of poor decisions, broken end-to-end rushes and flashy plays that led to nothing. But then again, when your not facing your opponents best players, nor are you relied upon to be the "shut down" defensive unit, you can play that way. Nobody's arguing that Thomas Hickey had a great tournament, but I think it's silly to use the WJC as the only measuring stick.
PK only got hell from Quinn once that I saw...For the most part, that spinorama and his other high risk/ high reward plays worked. It was Hickey, NOT PK whose WJ decision making was poor.

And yes , PK was voted top D man in tourney...though my vote woulda gone to Myers, PK had a HELLUVA tourney + his enthusiasm seemed infectious / he appeared to be a real team leader, keeping everybody loose with his comedic antics etc...

***
Correctly, if I'm wrong ...BUT I seem to recall seeing a few highlites...Didn't Subban get called up briefly for Habs last year?...& didn't he try his patented Spinorama?...Which everyone and his little brother insists wont work on NHLers...and didn't it work to perfection?...a la WJ's

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08-23-2009, 07:18 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
PK only got hell from Quinn once that I saw...For the most part, that spinorama and his other high risk/ high reward plays worked. It was Hickey, NOT PK whose WJ decision making was poor.

And yes , PK was voted top D man in tourney...though my vote woulda gone to Myers, PK had a HELLUVA tourney + his enthusiasm seemed infectious / he appeared to be a real team leader, keeping everybody loose with his comedic antics etc...

***
Correctly, if I'm wrong ...BUT I seem to recall seeing a few highlites...Didn't Subban get called up briefly for Habs last year?...& didn't he try his patented Spinorama?...Which everyone and his little brother insists wont work on NHLers...and didn't it work to perfection?...a la WJ's
Well, no, taht didn't happen.

Weber got the call at the end of the season.. but I don't remember a spin-o-rama. HE did pretty well though.

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08-23-2009, 07:27 AM
  #97
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Well, no, taht didn't happen.

Weber got the call at the end of the season.. but I don't remember a spin-o-rama. HE did pretty well though.
I'm thinking he may have meant the preseason? I dont know...I never saw those games...

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08-23-2009, 07:42 AM
  #98
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I'm thinking he may have meant the preseason? I dont know...I never saw those games...
Yeah preseason my bad...my memory on this is real sketchy...BUT I cant shake a mental hi-lite of PK in a Habs uni...pulling that spinorama, & it friggen works to perfection !


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08-23-2009, 08:01 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
PK only got hell from Quinn once that I saw...For the most part, that spinorama and his other high risk/ high reward plays worked. It was Hickey, NOT PK whose WJ decision making was poor.

And yes , PK was voted top D man in tourney...though my vote woulda gone to Myers, PK had a HELLUVA tourney + his enthusiasm seemed infectious / he appeared to be a real team leader, keeping everybody loose with his comedic antics etc...

***
Correctly, if I'm wrong ...BUT I seem to recall seeing a few highlites...Didn't Subban get called up briefly for Habs last year?...& didn't he try his patented Spinorama?...Which everyone and his little brother insists wont work on NHLers...and didn't it work to perfection?...a la WJ's
QFTBS.

Yeah, it's so horrible that one of the top 2-way Dmen in the league (Markov) does use it at the opposing blue line.

As I said, people make up ideas to defend their own.

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08-23-2009, 08:20 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
Yeah preseason my bad...my memory on this is real sketchy...BUT I cant shake a mental hi-lite of PK in a Habs uni...pulling that spinorama, & it friggen works !
Those spinoramas CAN work at the NHL level. Brian Campbell and Andrei Markov are two defensemen who can pull them off. If they can, Subban will be able to do it. Maybe not as often as in junior, but still...

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