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P.K. Subban VS Thomas Hickey

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Old
08-23-2009, 09:37 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
Those spinoramas CAN work at the NHL level...
Hence the term ' Savardian Spinorama'....which he learned from Doug Harvey...PK's just the next great Hab whirling dervish

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08-23-2009, 01:48 PM
  #102
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Two really great prospects and while Hickey had a few gaffs at the WJC where I have only seen him he did also play very well at times.
PK seems to be some kind of legend on here lately but he isn't nearly as NHL ready as some Habs fans think he is. He does overhandle the puck quite a bit in the O and he won't be able to beat two guys on the rush at the next levels. His numbers were great in the O but he did play for a pretty deep team his last few years with the best goalie in the O. My point is has some bad habits to break and will have to adjust his game against men so I'd say Hickey is the safer bet right now.

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08-23-2009, 01:57 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by leafmon View Post
Two really great prospects and while Hickey had a few gaffs at the WJC where I have only seen him he did also play very well at times.
PK seems to be some kind of legend on here lately but he isn't nearly as NHL ready as some Habs fans think he is. He does overhandle the puck quite a bit in the O and he won't be able to beat two guys on the rush at the next levels. His numbers were great in the O but he did play for a pretty deep team his last few years with the best goalie in the O. My point is has some bad habits to break and will have to adjust his game against men so I'd say Hickey is the safer bet right now.
Good post...it's true that Subban will have a few adjustment to make. The good thing though is that Subban has a REALLY great attitude. He knows he's not a lock to make the NHL and he knows he'll have to work hard to reach his goal. That's why I'm really confident he won't bust...

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08-23-2009, 02:06 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by leafmon View Post
Two really great prospects and while Hickey had a few gaffs at the WJC where I have only seen him he did also play very well at times.
PK seems to be some kind of legend on here lately but he isn't nearly as NHL ready as some Habs fans think he is. He does overhandle the puck quite a bit in the O and he won't be able to beat two guys on the rush at the next levels. His numbers were great in the O but he did play for a pretty deep team his last few years with the best goalie in the O. My point is has some bad habits to break and will have to adjust his game against men so I'd say Hickey is the safer bet right now.
Bang on Leaf. I'm sure you will attest that he has improved in his own end but still needs to work on that quite a bit before making the jump. Should be in the AHL for atleast one season, maybe two. In my opinion, that's the right career move for P.K.

He isn't NHL ready yet. Right now Hickey is definitely more polished.

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08-23-2009, 02:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Or because many people think that Hickey is a better prospect

People criticize Hickey for his WJC and praise Subban for his, but from what I saw, Hickey had more of a pro game than Subban did.
Of course it has nothing to do with people thinking that Hickey is a better prospect. But more likely to do with people who blinded by their hate towards Habs prospects think that Hickey is a better prospect BY DEFAULT 'cause Subban sucks so much. It's also directed towards the people who still believes Subban is one-dimensional despite being named one of the top defensive d-men by the coaches of his leagues.

So if any of these reasons applies to your choosing Hickey as a better prospect, YES it's totally blinded by hate and no good reasons whatsoever. But if you prefer Hickey for different reasons than that, well go ahead, you can prefer Tony Potato if you want to......IF you have relatively good reasons to do so.

As far as the PRO game is concerned, well one day, people will realize that Subban is not dumb. Some people believes that Subban's game is solely based on his zone to zone rushes and that he'll never be able to do that in the NHL.....duh! Subban does that 'cause he knows he can. But the day he wants to try it and it doesn't work, he'll adapt. And he knows it already for having talked about it. But as far as not being to adapt his game to the NHL, on what other basis are you talking about? Speed? Surely not. Toughness? Clearly the kid while not being the biggest, has the grit and the strength necessary to succeed. Hockey sense? Well of course, again, people will base his rushes and his spinoramas on the fact that he doesn't have any hockey sense but strangely forget to see ALL these other things he's doing that prooves he does. All the improvement he made on his defensive game. All the great tape-to-tape passes he makes, the passion he brings to the game, the desire to succeed that he has etc.

But then, it seems that the rushes and spinoramas AUTOMATICALLY means that the kid is so dumb that he won't adapt. That he doesn't have ANYTHING ELSE to compensate IF it takes him some time to adapt. And some people, not you, are so dumb that they've already ready to see that since Hickey got 7 points in 7 games, if Subban can't do that, it will mean he's a bust, 'cause clearly, it's always about who gets there first, the fastest who wins the greatest career.....

Subban played that way in Juniors 'cause he could. He said himself that his speed, at that level, makes him that more risks so he's able to cover it up after, something he might not be able to do in the Pros. He recognized it. Now needs to apply it. Will it means that he'll change his style? Probably not. But he'll be more careful, I have no doubt. He will caught sometimes, I did see Mike Green getting caught 1000 times already.....I'm pretty sure that most people here still loves the kid....

Again, you can like Hickey all you want. I like Hickey myself. But we need to stop inventing arguments just for the sake of hating a guy more than loving another...And another CLEAR example of that was the hatred that Subban got for his play on the PP in the last Juniors, with the same people with their clear hatred towards him when clearly it was the type of PP that the COACHES wanted to run. But no.....it had to mean that Subban sucked 'cause of the 4th forward position he was suppose to play on his own....yeah right....Subban is that powerful, he decided whatever he does....

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08-23-2009, 02:15 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
PK only got hell from Quinn once that I saw...For the most part, that spinorama and his other high risk/ high reward plays worked. It was Hickey, NOT PK whose WJ decision making was poor.

And yes , PK was voted top D man in tourney...though my vote woulda gone to Myers, PK had a HELLUVA tourney + his enthusiasm seemed infectious / he appeared to be a real team leader, keeping everybody loose with his comedic antics etc...

***
Correctly, if I'm wrong ...BUT I seem to recall seeing a few highlites...Didn't Subban get called up briefly for Habs last year?...& didn't he try his patented Spinorama?...Which everyone and his little brother insists wont work on NHLers...and didn't it work to perfection?...a la WJ's
Why are you basing your opinion entirely on the WJC? Some players shine there, others don't. It's a 6 game tourney, not that important when judging a player. And Erik Karlsson was the defenseman of the tourney not Subban but let's not bring him into this discussion again

No record of him playing in the NHL or even the AHL for that matter. And I would love to see him try that spinorama on a seasoned NHL veteran defenseman, take the body is stamped onto every thought in their mind. Poor PK wouldn't know what hit him.

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08-23-2009, 02:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
These threads are so pointless, just *****in' and dissin' by people who thinks they know what they're talking about (for the most part, some here really know).

IMO, these are 2 great young D prospects, and each one will have to prove themselves in the NHL before we can judge anything. Hickey seems to be developing a better all around game, but Subban might very well be an offensive dynamo...
very well said.

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08-23-2009, 02:37 PM
  #108
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Both will play in the AHL this season, both will see time in the NHL. Subban will have the better career but only after he's traded from Montreal

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08-23-2009, 02:54 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
Why are you basing your opinion entirely on the WJC? Some players shine there, others don't. It's a 6 game tourney, not that important when judging a player. And Erik Karlsson was the defenseman of the tourney not Subban but let's not bring him into this discussion again

No record of him playing in the NHL or even the AHL for that matter. And I would love to see him try that spinorama on a seasoned NHL veteran defenseman, take the body is stamped onto every thought in their mind. Poor PK wouldn't know what hit him.
Kovalev did it...Markov did it...Serge Savard did it.

There is no issue with that... Are you serious? You think PK only trick is a spinorama everytime ? What about his sick vision on the Powerplay and great playmaking abilities ?

You try to stir the pot, thats it.

And wow...7 freaking games of AHL, and people use it like an argument.

When Price had 25 games in the AHL and won the Calder Cup MVP, others fans were saying the AHL doesn't mean ****.

Try to built some fake argument again, there is no issue to use a spinorama in the NHL, Campbell and Kovalev scored a goal this year doing it, and Markov did it several time at the blueline.

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Old
08-23-2009, 03:13 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post
Why are you basing your opinion entirely on the WJC? And I would love to see him try that spinorama on a seasoned NHL veteran defenseman, take the body is stamped onto every thought in their mind. Poor PK wouldn't know what hit him.
Some people are basing their argument on a tournament, some others are basing their opinion on one move....go figure....

I would say that most people are basing their opinion on the seasons he had in the OHL, on the playoffs he had, on the WJC he had, on the preseason in the NHL he had last year.....Most people recognized the great improvement he made, and the same people still believes he has the potential to still improve.

But I guess everything doesn't matter when some expert will then tell us that since he won't be able to do the spinorama, it clearly mean that he sucks and will never do anything good.

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08-23-2009, 03:35 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by habsfans333 View Post
Kovalev did it...Markov did it...Serge Savard did it.

There is no issue with that... Are you serious? You think PK only trick is a spinorama everytime ? What about his sick vision on the Powerplay and great playmaking abilities ?

You try to stir the pot, thats it.

And wow...7 freaking games of AHL, and people use it like an argument.

When Price had 25 games in the AHL and won the Calder Cup MVP, others fans were saying the AHL doesn't mean ****.

Try to built some fake argument again, there is no issue to use a spinorama in the NHL, Campbell and Kovalev scored a goal this year doing it, and Markov did it several time at the blueline.
Not to say that he won't be able to do it at the NHL but...

PK Subban is no Serge Savard/Andrei Markov/Alexei Kovalev.

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08-23-2009, 03:55 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by habsfans333 View Post
Kovalev did it...Markov did it...Serge Savard did it.

There is no issue with that... Are you serious? You think PK only trick is a spinorama everytime ? What about his sick vision on the Powerplay and great playmaking abilities ?

You try to stir the pot, thats it.

And wow...7 freaking games of AHL, and people use it like an argument.

When Price had 25 games in the AHL and won the Calder Cup MVP, others fans were saying the AHL doesn't mean ****.

Try to built some fake argument again, there is no issue to use a spinorama in the NHL, Campbell and Kovalev scored a goal this year doing it, and Markov did it several time at the blueline.
It wasn't just about the spinorama, players just can't make those moves in the NHL. On a junior defenseman it may work but not in the NHL, it would take many, many failed attempts to make it work once. Being a defenseman myself I love when a player tries to make a pretty move, that's when you take the body. Can't see an NHL defenseman thinking any different.

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08-23-2009, 04:16 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Zim View Post

Hickey's closest competitor on Seattle's blueline was Acoslaste (slightly older than Hickey) who had stats of:

70gp 7g 14a 21pts -15 - Regular season
5gp 1g 1a 2pts -1 - Playoffs
I know the WHL site has him listed as a defenseman, but Acolatse actually played forward last year for Seattle because he was so bad defensively. Funny thing is 2 seasons ago he was actually Hickey's "defensive" partner. Hickey spent most his year covering for Acolatse's awful mistakes and allowing Acolatse to jump in the offensive play.

Last year Seattle actually played with basically 5 defenseman. 6 dressed but Hickey double shifted almost every game after the WJC and never had an official defense partner. I'd guess that Hickey played about 35 minutes a game after the WJC and probably closer to 40 in the playoffs.

The look on Hickey's face as he lifted the WJC trophy looked more like one of relief to me than it did joy. Hickey admitted the pressure of being the captain of team Canada playing in Canada affected his WJC. But the Hickey that came back from the WJC was just on a completely different level (especially when the Seattle coaching staff took the reins off him) and he was absolutely dominant.

Hickey still needs at least half a season in the AHL. Not only to answer questions about whether he can handle physical professional forwards, but to work on his offense as well. He doesn't have the greatest slap shot from the point, but compounding it is the fact that he telegraphs every shot leading to a lot of them being blocked.

I'd take Hickey (but I'm biased having seen him live probably close to 100 games), to be honest I like Subban but have only seen him on TV (WJC and Memorial Cup) and don't think it's really fair to try and judge him by that.

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08-23-2009, 04:32 PM
  #114
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Hickey was a +37 on a team that was overall in the minus. If that doesn't speak for his reliability defensively I don't know what does.

But let's judge him on a six game tourney basis in the most overrated anything in the history of hockey that only today gets attention because of a brawl started by Theo Fleury over 20 years ago.

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08-23-2009, 04:33 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Not to say that he won't be able to do it at the NHL but...

PK Subban is no Serge Savard/Andrei Markov/Alexei Kovalev.
say that again in 10 years

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08-23-2009, 04:51 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Or, that the coach used Hickey against the other teams' best players.
Quinn used Hickey against the other teams' best players until Hickey began defecating in the bed, then he saw less ice time. PK lead the tournament in +/- and saw more ice time as the tournament went on. He was out there in all the important situations. I am not going to make a judgement on Hickey on one bad tournament. Nor should people judge PK on one excellent tournament performance. I think PK will be better cause his stats are better I'm also amazed at his skill level having seen him play live 30-40 times.

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08-23-2009, 05:17 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
Thomas Hickey is a complete defense man.

P.K Subban is one-dimensional.


Of course Subban is going to outscore Hickey. Stats are pointless. WJR? There's a reason why Hickey was named Captain. He would dependable in all situations. Subban was only a PP specialist.


Even then, when you look at the stats. It's relatively close despite Hickey being more of a role player.




PK Subban will probably be at best a 5/6 PP specialist /bust to europe.

vs

Thomas Hickey who will likely be a top 4 defense man in the NHL.



No need to debate, Just watch. Watch them next year. Hickey already put up 7 points in 7 AHL games, which is already an impressive feat. Let see how Subban faces men in the AHL rather than boys who can't match against speed.
Why do people even care writing bullcrap like this?

So now having a +47 season and being named 2nd best defensive defensmen of your league makes you 1-dimensional? Unless he ment strickly defensive? with moronic posts like these ones you can never know.

This thread is an embarrassement to Subban and Habs fans who know their hockey.

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08-23-2009, 05:37 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by boozeash View Post
Quinn used Hickey against the other teams' best players until Hickey began defecating in the bed, then he saw less ice time. PK lead the tournament in +/- and saw more ice time as the tournament went on. He was out there in all the important situations. I am not going to make a judgement on Hickey on one bad tournament. Nor should people judge PK on one excellent tournament performance. I think PK will be better cause his stats are better I'm also amazed at his skill level having seen him play live 30-40 times.
Oh really? When the game went into overtime it was Hickey who led all skaters in ice time.

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08-23-2009, 06:05 PM
  #119
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You don't find the kind of drive, attitude, and talent in one individual the way you do in Subban very often. He'll play his heart out.

What's the most crucial skill for a defenseman? Skating, when he was drafted two years ago he was ALREADY a better skater than everyone on the Habs roster. And that was a fast team. He's coachable, he has a great attitude. He isn't passive, he'll hit, fight, drive the net with authority. He has an absolute bomb for a shot, he has a great outlet pass.

I don't know what it is people think he doesn't have that will hold him back from becoming a very good NHL player.

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08-23-2009, 06:17 PM
  #120
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Oh really? When the game went into overtime it was Hickey who led all skaters in ice time.
If I remember correctly, Quinn paired Subban and Hickey up for that overtime.

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08-23-2009, 06:18 PM
  #121
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You don't find the kind of drive, attitude, and talent in one individual the way you do in Subban very often. He'll play his heart out.

What's the most crucial skill for a defenseman? Skating, when he was drafted two years ago he was ALREADY a better skater than everyone on the Habs roster. And that was a fast team. He's coachable, he has a great attitude. He isn't passive, he'll hit, fight, drive the net with authority. He has an absolute bomb for a shot, he has a great outlet pass.

I don't know what it is people think he doesn't have that will hold him back from becoming a very good NHL player.
It isn't skating, that's for sure. If he doesn't know what position to be in it doesn't matter how fast he gets there.

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08-23-2009, 06:24 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
Hickey was a +37 on a team that was overall in the minus. If that doesn't speak for his reliability defensively I don't know what does.

But let's judge him on a six game tourney basis in the most overrated anything in the history of hockey that only today gets attention because of a brawl started by Theo Fleury over 20 years ago.
Matt Greene and Davis Drewskie, Kyle Quincey and Tom Preissing all had better +/- than Doughty or Johnson and all played on the same team. Does that speak to Doughty and Johnson's reliability defensively or is +/- only useful when it serves your purpose?

As for the question, I've only seen Hickey play at the WJC and yes he looked terrible. I'm assuming he's better than that, but until I personally see otherwise I have to go with Subban.

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08-23-2009, 06:24 PM
  #123
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Quinn used Hickey against the other teams' best players until Hickey began defecating in the bed, then he saw less ice time. PK lead the tournament in +/- and saw more ice time as the tournament went on. He was out there in all the important situations. I am not going to make a judgement on Hickey on one bad tournament. Nor should people judge PK on one excellent tournament performance. I think PK will be better cause his stats are better I'm also amazed at his skill level having seen him play live 30-40 times.
Erik Karlsson won the best defenceman of the tourney but according to a certain segment of the board that doesn't mean he is better than Subban.

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08-23-2009, 06:30 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Doughty Number 8 View Post
Not to say that he won't be able to do it at the NHL but...

PK Subban is no Serge Savard/Andrei Markov/Alexei Kovalev.
True, but he is skilled enough to be able to pull off that move...doesn't mean he'll be able to be as good as them...but chances are that he'll be able to make those spinoramas and those kind of moves at the NHL level...because believe it or not, he's skilled enough!

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08-23-2009, 06:38 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
It isn't skating, that's for sure. If he doesn't know what position to be in it doesn't matter how fast he gets there.
I'm talking about physical skills, not hockey sense. Not that he lacks that either, because he doesn't. He knows where to be.

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