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Old
08-30-2009, 05:49 PM
  #26
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Lisin for Korpikoski made a lot of sense. We already have enough players with limited offensive upsides. Korpi, no matter how hard he tries has never been a goal scorer on any level, and never will be. All aspects of his game are respectable, and solid, but he will never score more than 15 goals, IMO. Not a bad thing, but not special. Lisin has the qualities, and scoring touch this team desperately needs...

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08-30-2009, 06:02 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Higgins - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Prospal - Drury - Kotalik
Lisin - Anisimov - Callahan
Avery - Boyle - Brashear
Good lines, but I think Anisimov would benefit more then anything else from having players who are strong along the boards on his wing. His strength is his speed in open ice. He can not collect a puck under pressure in his own ice and sig-sag with it up ice, or thats not his strengths. A player like that, and don't take it as a knock on him its the same with a Sundin or LeCavalier, is better to feed by moving pucks up the boards to wingers who can protect it there and then feed Anisimov in the neutralzone.

Thoose who saw him in HFD knows what I am talking about. I don't know who he played with all year but its a classic enivorment for him that Gernander put him in when he had him with 2 PF's in Brodie Dupont and Weise. Torts played LeCav with 240 lbs Freddy Modin in Tampa a lot.

Dubinsky also does not hurt from having prescense on his wing.

So with that in mind -- I can't see Sean Avery not playing with either Anisimov or Dubinsky. Avery would open up ice for thooes two, and both of them needs it.

For example;
Prospal-Dubinsky-Gabby
Higgins-Drury-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik

Lisin with Drury makes sense IMO though. But who is dumped on the 4th line then? Prospal? Anisimov? Callahan? It will be tough for Lisin to make the top 9, while I do think he have a shot at pushing down Anisimov.

Like;
Higgins-Prospal-Gaborik
Lisin-Drury-Callahan
Avery-Dubinsky-Kotalik

A lot can happend, its very hard to tell how things will play out.

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08-30-2009, 06:05 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
No but with a player like Lisin you got to give him ice time that can develop his offensive skills. Preferbly on a 2nd line. You have to give him time.

Are we willing to do that? If we are -- fine. I don't mind the trade.

But if we gave up Korpi just to see if Lisin can suprise in camp or not -- then I think its very stupid.
i understand your point and agree. i truly believe they thought arty would be better at the 3c than korpedo and lisin addressed our need for more speed and offensive talent. the trade made sense and still does but........ your you bring up a logical question.

we seem to be 1 wing heavy and 1 centerman light.

obviously gaborik is on the 1st line but guys like higgins, callahan, kotalik and prospal are all going to play top 9 minutes on the edge. that leaves avery out there along with lisin. one of those 2 guys is out of a job or on the 4th line.

we either need to make a deal and shed 1 centerman and a winger for a guy who can center gaborik or someone is going to be playing on that 4th line which is a waste if talent.

the odds of anyone above not named avery playing on the 4th line are remote.

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08-30-2009, 06:07 PM
  #29
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question to you ranger fans... What if Evgeny Grachev steals the show at training camp. Is there any chance of this? Does he have any chance of cracking the lineup?

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08-30-2009, 06:14 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Good lines, but I think Anisimov would benefit more then anything else from having players who are strong along the boards on his wing. His strength is his speed in open ice. He can not collect a puck under pressure in his own ice and sig-sag with it up ice, or thats not his strengths. A player like that, and don't take it as a knock on him its the same with a Sundin or LeCavalier, is better to feed by moving pucks up the boards to wingers who can protect it there and then feed Anisimov in the neutralzone.

Thoose who saw him in HFD knows what I am talking about. I don't know who he played with all year but its a classic enivorment for him that Gernander put him in when he had him with 2 PF's in Brodie Dupont and Weise. Torts played LeCav with 240 lbs Freddy Modin in Tampa a lot.

Dubinsky also does not hurt from having prescense on his wing.

So with that in mind -- I can't see Sean Avery not playing with either Anisimov or Dubinsky. Avery would open up ice for thooes two, and both of them needs it.

For example;
Prospal-Dubinsky-Gabby
Higgins-Drury-Callahan
Avery-Anisimov-Kotalik

Lisin with Drury makes sense IMO though. But who is dumped on the 4th line then? Prospal? Anisimov? Callahan? It will be tough for Lisin to make the top 9, while I do think he have a shot at pushing down Anisimov.

Like;
Higgins-Prospal-Gaborik
Lisin-Drury-Callahan
Avery-Dubinsky-Kotalik

A lot can happend, its very hard to tell how things will play out.
interesting.

if you look at the centerman like this....

prospal
dubinski
drury
arty

things make more sense.

the odd man out there is arty playing 4th line center but there seems to be better balance that way. gives arty time to adjust and then move up if and when injuries occur. he is a rookie for all intents and purpose.

lisin prospal gaborik
higgins dubi callahan
avery drury kotalik
boyle arty brash

interesting

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08-30-2009, 06:15 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EurOConnEcton View Post
question to you ranger fans... What if Evgeny Grachev steals the show at training camp. Is there any chance of this? Does he have any chance of cracking the lineup?
He would have to absolutely blow everyone out of the water, and even then I don't know if it will be enough. He's the closest thing we've had to a blue-chip scoring prospect in quite some time (Cherepanov aside) and I would imagine we'd give him plenty of time to develop.

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08-30-2009, 06:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EurOConnEcton View Post
question to you ranger fans... What if Evgeny Grachev steals the show at training camp. Is there any chance of this? Does he have any chance of cracking the lineup?
if hes totally healthy, the answer is yes. however, it seems we have one too many wings now so should he blow everyone away in camp, it will create a logjam at wing.

it doesnt appear theres an open spot to win given the recent prospal signing, a healthy christopher higgins and the 3 yr deal given to kotalik. seems like the wrong year for him to steal a spot.

someone would be sent down (lisin) and avery would move to the 4th line i would assume but even that isnt a given.

many possibilities but its a good problem to have should it happen.

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08-30-2009, 07:09 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EurOConnEcton View Post
question to you ranger fans... What if Evgeny Grachev steals the show at training camp. Is there any chance of this? Does he have any chance of cracking the lineup?
He would have to play at the point where he is just way too good to resist. We would have to send a contract like Lisin down to AHL, and then he would be playing on one of the top 2 lines.

I dont see us bringing him in for 3rd line duties.

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08-30-2009, 07:29 PM
  #34
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Thx for the info guys

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08-30-2009, 07:42 PM
  #35
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I agree with what others said. Grachev may make the team only if he is the best player in the camp or at least two wingers are out of the game - either injured or playing really poorly.

I reckon he'll play whole season in AHL, but if he gets a call-up he's not returning back...

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08-30-2009, 11:43 PM
  #36
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What was Gretzky's prolbem with Lisin? Fomr the clips i've seen he looks like he is a hell of a talent.

I/m not gonna anoint this kid as far as being the next Malkin or Ovechkin, I think he has to beat out alot of guys to crack the top 9

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08-30-2009, 11:46 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mjollnir9 View Post
Lisin for Korpikoski made a lot of sense. We already have enough players with limited offensive upsides. Korpi, no matter how hard he tries has never been a goal scorer on any level, and never will be. All aspects of his game are respectable, and solid, but he will never score more than 15 goals, IMO. Not a bad thing, but not special. Lisin has the qualities, and scoring touch this team desperately needs...
I'm pretty sure Korpikoski will hit 25 if played enough. He's got the abilities with the puck and the speed. A ton of his shots with us last year rang off the post. 1-2 inches the other way and he scored atleast 5 more goals.

It's debatable, but the only way I see him never hitting 15 is if he destroys his career at his own hands.

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08-31-2009, 03:12 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
interesting.

if you look at the centerman like this....

prospal dubinski drury arty

things make more sense.
Agreed, and we have the wings to "carry" Prospal at center. Like he is darn slow, but with like a Higgins on one side and a Gabby on the other he could work out pretty well. Or it wouldn't be a dominant line, but they could be dangerous so to speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
the odds of anyone above not named avery playing on the 4th line are remote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EurOConnEcton View Post
question to you ranger fans... What if Evgeny Grachev steals the show at training camp. Is there any chance of this? Does he have any chance of cracking the lineup?
He won't...

Seriously though, I think Grachev have potential to make the NHL right away. But he will never come in and like dominate in camp or in preseason, he could definitly make himself noticed and show that he can play on a top 3 line in the NHL though.

The diffrence is that we won't stand there with a emergent logjam on 2nd October. We would have time to play in Grachev during the season and let the rest play out it self. And from my point of view I really don't care one bit if a kid makes this team out of camp or after 10 games. A lot of fans makes a big fuz about a kid not getting the chance right away -- but I think thooes 10 games you missed early on will let you keep a higher level 10 games longer at the end of the season...

And while I agree with offdacrossbar about the chances of anyone else then Ani and Lisin ending up on the 4th line is slim -- that could change fast.

We have so many "truths" now, but something I've learned the last 4 years is that thoose truth's can change in a hurry.

Take Ryan Callahan for example -- there is no ifs and buts about it, he was one of our absolute best players for like the last 20-30 games last season. But that doesn't hide the fact that he have very small marginals as a NHL player, and he isn't a natrual fit with just about anyone, like his game is about taking the puck to the net and then keep the pressure on. With a line mate who isn't as good at winning the puck back, he is not such a great fit.

The bottomline is that Callahan is never better then his last game. He doesn't have the talent level of a Dubinsky who can suck for 15 straight games and still find himself in the NHL, if Callahan have a tough stretch his stock would plument fast. Maybe thats why he never so far have had that tough stretch. But a nagging wrist injury or something like that could basically end a players like Callahan's career in the worst case scenario. The marginal is that small. Look at Mike York for example. Guys like that have no marginals...

So Callahan, with his play last season really, is a lock to make the team out of camp and to get a chance. But before we know it he could be on the outside looking in, like on a 4th line.

And he isn't alone in that cathegory. Prospal is another guy who's stock could drop fast. Allot of things can happend.

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08-31-2009, 03:29 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
What was Gretzky's prolbem with Lisin? Fomr the clips i've seen he looks like he is a hell of a talent.

I/m not gonna anoint this kid as far as being the next Malkin or Ovechkin, I think he has to beat out alot of guys to crack the top 9
I wouldn't really look into it that much. I see it as a Maloney deal only. I wish Korpedo was still here instead of Lisin, but we haven't seen Lisin play yet. Gretzky is also a horrible coach. He kind of threw himself in the HC job, which was horrible. If he had been let's say an assistant for San Antonio then work his way up, he'd probably be succesful. But he wasn't, and he's a hack of a coach.

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08-31-2009, 08:28 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
What was Gretzky's prolbem with Lisin? Fomr the clips i've seen he looks like he is a hell of a talent.

I/m not gonna anoint this kid as far as being the next Malkin or Ovechkin, I think he has to beat out alot of guys to crack the top 9
heres the skinny on the lisin/gretzky deal.

simply put, he wasnt a favorite of waynes. seemed wayne had a hardon for lisin for some reason. perhaps defensive lapses, lisins ego or maybe he favored other yotes players like tikhonov and boedker who both have a more well rounded 2 way game.

whichever it was, it seemed like wayne never had anything good to say about lisin which is strange because his play at the beginning of last season was excellent. even his d play was better.

his biggest shortcoming i can gather is his backchecking. he isnt all that interested, or wasnt last year, at getting back. in that sense hes more like a bure or a kovalev and even jagr who will tell you straight up, my job is to score goals not get back, if i get back i have father to go to score.

makes sense but perhaps not from a team defense standpoint. wayne, i believe, resented that attitude from lisin even though, and heres the key........

lisin is a true sniper he has an excellent shot and nose for the net. he has scary speed and can beat you badly one on one. i know i read some where where wayne himself said that enver lisin may be the fastest skater in the entire league. hes that fast.

he is in a word. dangerous.

again, i will predict huge things from him if he gets a chance to play with talent. he needs to play with a guy who can get him the puck. it wouldnt hurt to have him play with a defensively responsible wing and center on the other side to allow for him to "cherry pick" on occasion.

in a perfect world, i could see enver going off playing with gaborik but could also see him doing very well along side the defensively smart anisimov.

http://coyotes.nhl.com/team/app/?ser...ticleid=396830


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Old
08-31-2009, 08:44 AM
  #41
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his biggest shortcoming i can gather is his backchecking. he isnt all that interested, or wasnt last year, at getting back. in that sense hes more like a bure or a kovalev and even jagr who will tell you straight up, my job is to score goals not get back, if i get back i have father to go to score.
He scored 13 goals in 48 games last year, which translates to about 20 goals over a full season. He is no Bure, Kovalev, or Jagr, and to put Enver Lisin in the same sentence as these great players is a slap in the face to them. When you're not a 40-50 goal scorer in the NHL, you better damn well show some interest in defensive responsibilies and backchecking...If Gretzky had a problem with Lisin, Torts is going to eat him alive.

We'll see how camp plays out, but right now, it certainly looks like the Prospal signing has bought Lisin a one-way ticket to the press box most nights.

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08-31-2009, 08:50 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
What was Gretzky's prolbem with Lisin? Fomr the clips i've seen he looks like he is a hell of a talent.
Honestly? I think it is because Wayne is as terrible of a coach, as how good he was as a player....

Really the guy is being paid 8 million a year just to be a name....

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08-31-2009, 08:55 AM
  #43
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Honestly? I think it is because Wayne is as terrible of a coach, as how good he was as a player....

Really the guy is being paid 8 million a year just to be a name....
Is that also why Maloney traded Lisin for our borderline 3rd liner, Lauri Korpikoski?

Or is Maloney's "love affair" with Korp just going to be another excuse as to why the Yotes traded a potential star*


*I dont think this, but others seem to believe hes just waiting to burst out..."as long as he plays with talented players"
That line has been the kiss of death for more young players than I can count.

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08-31-2009, 08:59 AM
  #44
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I love that you are already furious about an event that did not happen. I love the internet
Well in all fairness the trade "did" happen, so that makes it fair game to discuss it. Personally I was never that high on Korpikowski...but that said, if Lisin is a bust (not saying he will be) then you have to wonder why we delt a serviceable 2 way player for josef balej part II.

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08-31-2009, 09:04 AM
  #45
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Well in all fairness the trade "did" happen, so that makes it fair game to discuss it. Personally I was never that high on Korpikowski...but that said, if Lisin is a bust (not saying he will be) then you have to wonder why we delt a serviceable 2 way player for josef balej part II.
because another 1 million contract is not worth a 3rd - 4th line servicable player???? Korps would not be in the top 9 never mind top 6, and is not worth paying 1 mill a year.

i think the trade happened as maloney thinks korps has room to grow and he was his pick.

i think the rangers are taking a gamble on a boom or bust player that is cheaper.

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08-31-2009, 09:06 AM
  #46
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He scored 13 goals in 48 games last year, which translates to about 20 goals over a full season. He is no Bure, Kovalev, or Jagr, and to put Enver Lisin in the same sentence as these great players is a slap in the face to them. When you're not a 40-50 goal scorer in the NHL, you better damn well show some interest in defensive responsibilies and backchecking...If Gretzky had a problem with Lisin, Torts is going to eat him alive.

We'll see how camp plays out, but right now, it certainly looks like the Prospal signing has bought Lisin a one-way ticket to the press box most nights.
gimme a break.

your projection is silly. the guy played with clowns most of the nights. his goals were created by him mostly. him and his exceptional speed and shot. play him with a talented centerman and another creative winger and he will go off. his talent level is scary.

my example was not to say lisin is as good as those guys at his point in his career but that his game is similar to those in his offensive instincts. period. actually, his defensive game came aong nicely last season. with him it seems like he can backcheck and play smart in his zone, but there are many players who do not do that consistently yet are given a pass. a guy like, phil kessel for example fits that bill. hes an all offense guy. a sniper. a finisher. i would compare lisin to him favorably.

wayne gretzkys coaching abilities are weak. ask any yotes fan. if torts gives lisin a chance to succeed, i expect he will do just that and i measure success for enver lisin as scoring goals and creating chances. give him some power play time and he will become one of our best offensive players. period.

i will look forward to having you eat crow later this season after enver lisin shows what he can do.

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08-31-2009, 09:13 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Is that also why Maloney traded Lisin for our borderline 3rd liner, Lauri Korpikoski?

Or is Maloney's "love affair" with Korp just going to be another excuse as to why the Yotes traded a potential star*


*I dont think this, but others seem to believe hes just waiting to burst out..."as long as he plays with talented players"
That line has been the kiss of death for more young players than I can count.
ok so when evgeny grachev has his cup of coffee this year with the big club, ill expect you to be ok with him playing on the 4th line with clowns like boyle and brasher right ?

again, gimme a break.

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08-31-2009, 09:18 AM
  #48
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because another 1 million contract is not worth a 3rd - 4th line servicable player???? Korps would not be in the top 9 never mind top 6, and is not worth paying 1 mill a year.

i think the trade happened as maloney thinks korps has room to grow and he was his pick.

i think the rangers are taking a gamble on a boom or bust player that is cheaper.
i would say this. korpedo is a centerman. lisin's a wing.

the yotes have alot of good young wingers who play a solid 2 way game. they had a need for a defensively responsible, affordable 2 way centerman to play in that system.

makes sense that maloney would trade for him since he drafted him. theres a certain amount of agenda here as well im sure since maloney prolly wants to show that korpedo can be a real player. i mean, he was a 1st round pick and so far, it looks like a reach at best.

lisin is a gamble no doubt but his talent is obvious. the key to me is how he is used here.

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08-31-2009, 09:18 AM
  #49
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This Lisin fastest skater thing has to be exaggeration. I mean, have you guys seen guys like Matt Cullen, Andrew Cogliano and Andy McDonald skate?

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08-31-2009, 09:24 AM
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This Lisin fastest skater thing has to be exaggeration. I mean, have you guys seen guys like Matt Cullen, Andrew Cogliano and Andy McDonald skate?
Theres an awful lot of exaggerating going on when it comes to Lisin's game.

Seems to me that Enver, at this point in his career, is a poor man's Zherdev...and we all know how that worked out.

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