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What if Lisin surprises?

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Old
08-31-2009, 10:27 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post

again, gimme a break.
Its awfully difficult to "give you a break" with your propensity to play favorites on the Rangers roster.

I will GLADLY eat crow if Lisin blossoms into a 30 goal scorer. However, I doubt you'll eat crow if and when he busts...Im sure you'll be onto the new flavor of the month by then, while still bashing consistently serviceable players Rozsival and Dubinsky (or whoever else somehow gets onto crossbar's ****list).

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08-31-2009, 10:28 AM
  #52
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I mean, I hope he becomes a mini-second line Gaborik like some people on here are bringing up. I just think its pretty optimistic to say that a boom-or-bust who hasn't even lit it up in the American league is going to boom.

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08-31-2009, 10:34 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
He was stuck on the 4th line of Phoenix because Gretzky was a moron.
Lisin could turn out to be anything but telling me that Gretzky is clueless about a hockey player's skills is [if I used the word I wanted to here, I would draw an infraction]

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08-31-2009, 10:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
I mean, I hope he becomes a mini-second line Gaborik like some people on here are bringing up. I just think its pretty optimistic to say that a boom-or-bust who hasn't even lit it up in the American league is going to boom.
This kind of stuff happens, literally, every season. Maybe Im scarred from growing up in the 90's and seeing pretty much every young player bust for the Rangers. Its made me pessimistic by nature when it comes to prospects.

Ill always hope they reach stardom, even though they rarely do.

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08-31-2009, 10:37 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Lisin could turn out to be anything but telling me that Gretzky is clueless about a hockey player's skills is [if I used the word I wanted to here, I would draw an infraction]
knowing a persons skill level, and being able to coach are two different things completely.

but if it is true that he was used on the 4th line, with no defensive skill as mentioned, you have to question wayne's coaching ability.

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08-31-2009, 10:37 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
This Lisin fastest skater thing has to be exaggeration. I mean, have you guys seen guys like Matt Cullen, Andrew Cogliano and Andy McDonald skate?
its not.

and actually erik cole is perhaps straight line faster but lisin is extremely fast.

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08-31-2009, 11:07 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Lisin could turn out to be anything but telling me that Gretzky is clueless about a hockey player's skills is [if I used the word I wanted to here, I would draw an infraction]
futuregm97 is dead on right.

ask the informed yotes fan.

being the greatest player in the history of hockey does not equal being even an average coach.

good coaching = identifying a players skills and using those skills properly.

in that sense, and with lisin wayne gets a fail.

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08-31-2009, 11:12 AM
  #58
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It has often been said that great players do not always make great coaches.

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08-31-2009, 11:13 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This kind of stuff happens, literally, every season. Maybe Im scarred from growing up in the 90's and seeing pretty much every young player bust for the Rangers. Its made me pessimistic by nature when it comes to prospects.

Ill always hope they reach stardom, even though they rarely do.
weve had our share of josef balejs, and the whole brendl/lundmark thing. heck, even kovalev never found his game until he left ny.

but lately i feel alot better about our kids and i am of the opinion that enver lisin is too talented to fail if used properly.

and i just gotta laugh honestly about the whole gretzky thing.

i mean come on, wayne was, on many occasions throughout his amazing career, the mother of all "cherry pickers" and no one would ever confuse wayne with a true 2 way player. not even close.

all this talk about lisin being one dimensional and all. wasnt the great one fairly one dimensional.

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08-31-2009, 11:27 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
weve had our share of josef balejs, and the whole brendl/lundmark thing. heck, even kovalev never found his game until he left ny.

but lately i feel alot better about our kids and i am of the opinion that enver lisin is too talented to fail if used properly.

and i just gotta laugh honestly about the whole gretzky thing.

i mean come on, wayne was, on many occasions throughout his amazing career, the mother of all "cherry pickers" and no one would ever confuse wayne with a true 2 way player. not even close.

all this talk about lisin being one dimensional and all. wasnt the great one fairly one dimensional.
This is exactly what worries me more. Shouldnt Gretzky be able to relate with a player like this if hes so exceptional from an offensive standpoint as you say? Im not saying Gretzky is a great, or even good coach, but the greatest hockey player that ever lived would certainly play a player that "too talented to fail" for more than 48 games. Then hes jettisoned to New York for Lauri Korpikoski?? Phoenix sucks, but you have guys that know hockey over there, and it seems unlikely they'd just give up on a guy with as much talent as you say. Theres more than meets the eye (or youtube clips) here.

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08-31-2009, 11:27 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post

all this talk about lisin being one dimensional and all. wasnt the great one fairly one dimensional.
now you're comparing lisin to greztky?

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08-31-2009, 11:37 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
This is exactly what worries me more. Shouldnt Gretzky be able to relate with a player like this if hes so exceptional from an offensive standpoint as you say? Im not saying Gretzky is a great, or even good coach, but the greatest hockey player that ever lived would certainly play a player that "too talented to fail" for more than 48 games. Then hes jettisoned to New York for Lauri Korpikoski?? Phoenix sucks, but you have guys that know hockey over there, and it seems unlikely they'd just give up on a guy with as much talent as you say. Theres more than meets the eye (or youtube clips) here.
not when that coach is giving that player the shaft, and you worry about him wanting to play for you as a result. because if that is the case, you take what you can or what you can get

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08-31-2009, 11:42 AM
  #63
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Wow, reading this thread would lead me to believe that Lisin is a 40-goal scorer waiting to explode. I mean, he's that fastest skater in the league, he creates his own offense, and he's so talented that Wayne Gretzky was shown to be a terrible coach because he didn't know how to use him. We may have pulled off the heist of the decade here.



And yet the guy has 41 points in 68 AHL games. I'm not questioning whether or not the kid is skilled...but so was Rico Fata, another blazing fast guy that could supposedly create offense. I understand that Lisin actually produced somewhat in limited time last season, but he wouldn't be the first guy to look promising during his first stint and then prove to be nothing. Jesus, have we forgotten Petr Prucha already?

I think we can all agree that we're hoping Lisin is truly a gifted offensive player just needing a real shot. That said, I think some people need to take a deep breath and stop hyping the kid up so much.


Last edited by nyr2k2: 08-31-2009 at 12:04 PM.
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Old
08-31-2009, 12:01 PM
  #64
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Yah, this started out as a great thread, but it's turned into the usual debate surrounding Lisin's potential. That's not really the point.

As far as I'm concerned, the fortunes of guys like Lisin, Arnason, Voros, etc, are out of their hands. They're not getting a chance unless someone suffers an injury in camp/preseason, or players like Anisimov, Byers or Boyle just totally blow it.

I think (2) forwards make the team in reserve and get their chance when an injury hits. Tough to say who they're going to be at this point.

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08-31-2009, 12:11 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Yah, this started out as a great thread, but it's turned into the usual debate surrounding Lisin's potential. That's not really the point.

As far as I'm concerned, the fortunes of guys like Lisin, Arnason, Voros, etc, are out of their hands. They're not getting a chance unless someone suffers an injury in camp/preseason, or players like Anisimov, Byers or Boyle just totally blow it.

I think (2) forwards make the team in reserve and get their chance when an injury hits. Tough to say who they're going to be at this point.
Getting back on topic, IF Lisin impresses and earns a regular spot in camp, I dont want to see him anywhere near the 4th line, same goes for Avery or any other player with tangible skill. The 4th line should be comprised of guys that are fine with playing 4 minutes a night and going out there to hit, cycle, and create havoc in general.

That said, I do not see Lisin unseating one of Gaborik, Dubinsky, Higgins, Drury, Kotalik, Callahan, Prospal, Anisimov, and Avery.

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08-31-2009, 12:22 PM
  #66
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For me Lisin is a lock. You guys might not have seen him play and can't say... or say hes "on the bubble" but he might be the 2nd most talented offensive player on the team. And thats a lot for me to say.

If you ask phoenix fans, they say that he was used wrong, played on the 3rd line, or just not used at all. Shunned for questionable/no reason.

I'm not saying this guy is a 40 goal scorer, but if he finds himself on the top 2 lines, 20 is not out of the question at all. And I suggest we don't put him on a line with gaborik. They both have the same style which might conflict a bit seeing as they both might want to hold onto the puck.

Also I know Drury has been slated in at center but Prospal also plays decently at center so I could see something like this...

Callahan - Prospal - Gaborik
Drury - Dubinsky - Lisin
Kotalik - Anisimov - Higgins

Did you notice something... No Avery :/ Not to say thats what I think the lines will be, but they might end up like that, I'm just mentioning a chance. Someone is gonna get screwed Petr Prucha style this season and it's going to be dirty because chances are they will probably be a good player, but just one we can't utilize as well as we would like to because our offensive forward depth. Although with Tort's amount of on ice activity, we might have a few players wear out and in the end it will be fine.

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Old
08-31-2009, 12:29 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nich View Post
knowing a persons skill level, and being able to coach are two different things completely.

but if it is true that he was used on the 4th line, with no defensive skill as mentioned, you have to question wayne's coaching ability.
I'm not talking about his coaching abilities here. Trading a player is about judging a player's abilities and I'm comfortable in my belief that a poster on a board probably is not as good a judge of talent as Gretzky, who saw him every day, in every practice as opposed to seeing him a few times on television.

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08-31-2009, 12:33 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
futuregm97 is dead on right.

ask the informed yotes fan.

being the greatest player in the history of hockey does not equal being even an average coach.

good coaching = identifying a players skills and using those skills properly.

in that sense, and with lisin wayne gets a fail.
Again, this not about coaching. That is changing the parameters of the argument.

Gretzky felt that holding on to Lisin was not important. While mistakes are often made in trades, they are the exception. If you are expecting me to base an opinion of a player on your opinion or a person who saw him every day, I'll take my chances with the other guy over a poster in a chatroom.

Lisin could end up great but if I had a buck for every insanely touted player......

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08-31-2009, 12:35 PM
  #69
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Lisin, to me, is a clear-cut top-six or nothing player. He's a offensive threat, but there isn't much else to his game that would make him serviceable in the bottom six. This smells like Prucha on the checking line all over again.

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08-31-2009, 12:37 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Lisin could turn out to be anything but telling me that Gretzky is clueless about a hockey player's skills is [if I used the word I wanted to here, I would draw an infraction]
I feel that this is the common miss conception with gretzky he was an amazing PLAYER and has great hockey sense but I don't know if that translates into him being a great coach..the Coyotes never impressed me while he is at the helm..Flame suit is on but this is just how I feel

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08-31-2009, 12:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
now you're comparing lisin to greztky?
no im not. i am asking a legit question.

wasnt wayne gretztky fairly one dimension ? or, ill ask this question.

was wayne gretzky a 2 way player ?

my point is not to compare lisin with gretzky but to say that you do not have to be a great 2 way player to be a great player.

and, if lisin isnt a "complete" player defensively, doesnt that make him closer in "style" to jagr, bure, kovalev, heck even kovalchuk and certainly wayne gretzky ??

and i just laugh at all the talk about how wayne didnt play lisin because he wasnt defensively responsible enough when wayne pretty much played the same way that lisin plays.

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08-31-2009, 12:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
weve had our share of josef balejs, and the whole brendl/lundmark thing. heck, even kovalev never found his game until he left ny.

but lately i feel alot better about our kids and i am of the opinion that enver lisin is too talented to fail if used properly.

and i just gotta laugh honestly about the whole gretzky thing.

i mean come on, wayne was, on many occasions throughout his amazing career, the mother of all "cherry pickers" and no one would ever confuse wayne with a true 2 way player. not even close.

all this talk about lisin being one dimensional and all. wasnt the great one fairly one dimensional.
Yes, Gretzky was one-dimensional. When he played, his team had the puck and was putting it into the other guy's net. If only the Rangers could acquire a one-dimensional player.

This whole bull about being used properly is funny. Great players will shine no matter how they are used. This notion that they can be held back is garbage. Any coach, and I mean every coach, will play the players that produce. No matter what you may think of them, they have an overwhelmingly better and more-informed opinion than the fans.

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08-31-2009, 12:39 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
weve had our share of josef balejs, and the whole brendl/lundmark thing. heck, even kovalev never found his game until he left ny.

but lately i feel alot better about our kids and i am of the opinion that enver lisin is too talented to fail if used properly.

and i just gotta laugh honestly about the whole gretzky thing.

i mean come on, wayne was, on many occasions throughout his amazing career, the mother of all "cherry pickers" and no one would ever confuse wayne with a true 2 way player. not even close.

all this talk about lisin being one dimensional and all. wasnt the great one fairly one dimensional.
Without Kovalev, the chant of 1940 is still ringing in your ears so perhaps you should re-evaluate his impact on this franchise.

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08-31-2009, 12:47 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SkerZ View Post
I feel that this is the common miss conception with gretzky he was an amazing PLAYER and has great hockey sense but I don't know if that translates into him being a great coach..the Coyotes never impressed me while he is at the helm..Flame suit is on but this is just how I feel
I have no idea if Greetzky will turn out to be a good or bad coach.

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08-31-2009, 12:49 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
no im not. i am asking a legit question.

wasnt wayne gretztky fairly one dimension ? or, ill ask this question.

was wayne gretzky a 2 way player ?

my point is not to compare lisin with gretzky but to say that you do not have to be a great 2 way player to be a great player.

and, if lisin isnt a "complete" player defensively, doesnt that make him closer in "style" to jagr, bure, kovalev, heck even kovalchuk and certainly wayne gretzky ??

and i just laugh at all the talk about how wayne didnt play lisin because he wasnt defensively responsible enough when wayne pretty much played the same way that lisin plays.
You have stated that Lisin is a burner. Gretzky wasn't close to a burner so they have no similarity at all, even in style.

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