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NHLPA fires Paul Kelly (UPD: player review of firing completed)

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Old
08-31-2009, 05:40 AM
  #26
Sad Panda
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Say hello to another lockout folks. Buzz Hargrove... lol. What a joke.

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08-31-2009, 07:07 AM
  #27
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I must admit, if Buzz is chosen to drive the bus, things could get crazy pretty quickly.

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08-31-2009, 09:30 AM
  #28
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Why do the players want this hustler on board?

Things seem pretty stable right now, what exactly are they looking for?

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08-31-2009, 09:40 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Why do the players want this hustler on board?

Things seem pretty stable right now, what exactly are they looking for?
Don't worry, they're all still pretty pissed off that they got bent over in 2005. They'll be looking to get back a little bit.

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08-31-2009, 09:51 AM
  #30
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Hard to understand why the players would oust such a qualified and professional person, especially at the bidding of the Lindros family and Buzz Hargrove.

I guess they want old style union manouvering with all the nepostism and underhanded deals that come with it.

Kelly didnt seem like a person who would go along with such deals as Goodenow bringing in old crony David Frost in as an agent and certifying him in the face of all the charges against him.

I wonder if these are Goodenow loylists? Where does Glen Healy stand in all this?

It seems there are a number of people seeking power here that should never be entrusted with power..

We should find out soon who else was party to this embarrasing mess.

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Old
08-31-2009, 10:39 AM
  #31
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From Twitter:
DarrenDreger: Pat Flatley resigns from the PA following Paul Kelly's firing

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Old
08-31-2009, 10:39 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Hard to understand why the players would oust such a qualified and professional person, especially at the bidding of the Lindros family and Buzz Hargrove.

I guess they want old style union manouvering with all the nepostism and underhanded deals that come with it.

Kelly didnt seem like a person who would go along with such deals as Goodenow bringing in old crony David Frost in as an agent and certifying him in the face of all the charges against him.

I wonder if these are Goodenow loylists? Where does Glen Healy stand in all this?
According to one of the articles Healy was pro-Kelly

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Old
08-31-2009, 10:51 AM
  #33
Kevin Forbes
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Question for the floor: Who is Carl Lindros and what's his stake in this game?

I mean, obviously I know about his sons and his interests (some might call it meddling) with their careers as their agent, but other than that, who is he? Does he have labour/legal experience? Does he have a prior relationship with Pink or Hargrove? It just seems odd that's he (and Eric) appears to be involved in this as much as anyone else.

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08-31-2009, 10:56 AM
  #34
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https://www.google.com/reader/view/f...eg%2BWyshynski

Puck Daddy summarizes the firing

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08-31-2009, 11:04 AM
  #35
ARS
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Sucks, I like Paul Kelly and their reasons for firing him seem really lame and reaching.

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Old
08-31-2009, 11:41 AM
  #36
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As Ken Campbell at The Hockey News wrote:
Quote:
But the question is, if thatís what it wanted (confrontation), why was Goodenow shown the door in the first place and why was he replaced by Kelly, who had made it clear from the start that he was going to conduct the associationís business in a less confrontational way?

Goodenow was deemed to be expendable when the players looked at the possibility of missing two years of paychecks and promptly soiled their pants. One season had already been wasted and even though Goodenow told players long before the lockout to prepare to sit out for as long as two seasons, when push came to shove, the players opted to get back to playing hockey and making money.
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...for-NHLPA.html

Lay this one at the feet of Trevor Linden and Ted Saskin who unlawfully deposed Goodenow in the first place - that was the genesis of the problems in the NHLPA.

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Old
08-31-2009, 11:44 AM
  #37
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Honestly, you'd think that if the hardliners in the NHLPA (if that's who is behind this) would have learned that cohesion in the NHLPA during a lockout isn't something to hang a hat on... PuckDaddy is right to note that if that was the direction they wanted, why let Goodenow leave?
From PD:

Quote:
I haven't spoken to any players lately about the CBA and the players association, but the topic has come up several times this summer in conversations with their agents. To a man, they say the same thing: There's a war coming again in NHL labor negotiations. Long-term contracts, international play, player input into League decisions like expansion and relocation, and the players' slice of the pie in general.

Their perception is that the NHLPA as currently constituted is ill-prepared for the fight while the NHL is scratching at the walls in preparation for it. Whether that's accurate or not, I can't say for certain; although firing your executive director at 3 a.m. before he's even had the chance to negotiate a new collective bargaining agreement doesn't speak to stability.

As for the Lindros factor? I guess he was pissed off that Kelly sent him packing. This smells more like a revenge firing than anything of any substance. I personally have NO IDEA why Lindros's dad is also involved. He was his son's agent throughout Eric's career. I think they've just made the NHLPA the laughing stock of pro sports.

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08-31-2009, 11:52 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
As for the Lindros factor? I guess he was pissed off that Kelly sent him packing. This smells more like a revenge firing than anything of any substance. I personally have NO IDEA why Lindros's dad is also involved. He was his son's agent throughout Eric's career. I think they've just made the NHLPA the laughing stock of pro sports.
When Lindros' resigned from his position at ombudsman, there was talk that the reason he was stepping down was due to him butting heads with Kelly, namely over Lindros doing everything he could to prove his worth and prove the need of the position. So Lindros would chase down every lead, dig up dissent even if it wasn't really there and try to investigate griefs with the NHLPA brass whether they were worthwhile causes or not.

Is it too big of a jump to imagine Lindros going from digging up corpses and chasing ghosts to actively causing problems?

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Old
08-31-2009, 11:54 AM
  #39
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Wow, what a completely dysfunctional organization.

It's almost like a criminal enterprise. I guess that the presence of vast sums of money brings the vultures out.

You have to wonder whether the players understood how bad bringing in a guy like Buzz Hargrove would look. Most of these guys probably don't get past the sports section of the newspaper. Well, based on some of the columns we're seeing in the sports sections, they'll start to understand soon. I think the players executive are going to have some uncomfortable conversations with their teammates heading into camp.

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08-31-2009, 11:58 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Forbes View Post
Question for the floor: Who is Carl Lindros and what's his stake in this game?

I mean, obviously I know about his sons and his interests (some might call it meddling) with their careers as their agent, but other than that, who is he? Does he have labour/legal experience? Does he have a prior relationship with Pink or Hargrove? It just seems odd that's he (and Eric) appears to be involved in this as much as anyone else.
Carl is an accountant, so I don't why he's there

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Old
08-31-2009, 12:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Lay this one at the feet of Trevor Linden and Ted Saskin who unlawfully deposed Goodenow in the first place - that was the genesis of the problems in the NHLPA.
Are you kidding?

It seems the same actors who knocked off Saskin are behind this move, also accusing Kelly of not following the rules.

Did it ever occur to you that the NHLPA is such a mess that it might be impossible to operate it in the current conditions?

Whether Linden followed the rules or not, he ended up getting a good deal for the people he represented, and things would have been much much worse if they'd sat out another season because he followed the rules.

Now that "L" word (lockout) is going to be flying all over the place, and the players are going to take all of the blame.

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Old
08-31-2009, 12:24 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Are you kidding?

It seems the same actors who knocked off Saskin are behind this move, also accusing Kelly of not following the rules.

Did it ever occur to you that the NHLPA is such a mess that it might be impossible to operate it in the current conditions?

Whether Linden followed the rules or not, he ended up getting a good deal for the people he represented, and things would have been much much worse if they'd sat out another season because he followed the rules.

Now that "L" word (lockout) is going to be flying all over the place, and the players are going to take all of the blame.
I was pretty sure the guys who got rid of Saskin were behind Kelly, hence why Kelly was brought in... I seriously doubt it's the same group.

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Old
08-31-2009, 12:26 PM
  #43
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Whether Linden followed the rules or not, he ended up getting a good deal for the people he represented, and things would have been much much worse if they'd sat out another season because he followed the rules.
You mean to tell me that a deal where not only is the compensation the owners have pay set at a limit, but the players have to hand over a portion of their salary to be held in an account for year, and if the businesss owners couldn't generate enough revenue they get to take that money(that they signed a contract to pay the player) back and spread it among themselves.

The star players are making as much or less than they did before(think Crosby signs for $8.7 without a cap?), and veterans who are not top stars are getting caught between the stars and young kids who come cheap. Except maybe for the cheap young kids, for whom exactly would things have been much worse for had they sat out another year?

Trevor Linden did not get a good deal for the players. He got a good deal for the owners. The only thing he did for the players was got them playing, which, in the cnotext of the deal they signed, was also a very good deal for the owners.

This was the view from a thread regarding Detroit's creativity with the cap, when I asked why was a year given up:

"it wasnt about a hard cap, it was about linkage. Cost certainty. The transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars paid to the players back to the owners. And the owners have it. They have everything they wanted. The players surrendered on bended knee, giving complete and total victory of the triple cap payroll range system to the owners along with Goodenows head on a plate of Russian Borscht from which he is now taunting them. Escrow backed cost certainty."

That is what Linden got the players. In hindsight I have to think there are several Calgary Flames wondering just what they were doing shaking his hand after that game.

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Old
08-31-2009, 12:49 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I was pretty sure the guys who got rid of Saskin were behind Kelly, hence why Kelly was brought in... I seriously doubt it's the same group.
The Lindros family is common to both, at the very least.

As far as I can tell, Kelly was kind of a compromise between the hardline faction and those who wanted to cooperate with the league when it suited the players interests. It appears that he was perceived as being too cooperative.

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08-31-2009, 12:57 PM
  #45
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This is a power struggle within the NHLPA and sadly Kelly was the fall guy.
Kelly is the best man for the job and the players will come to realize that but at a huge cost.
Can this league be any more dysfunctional?

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08-31-2009, 12:58 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bluefan75 View Post
You mean to tell me that a deal where not only is the compensation the owners have pay set at a limit, but the players have to hand over a portion of their salary to be held in an account for year, and if the businesss owners couldn't generate enough revenue they get to take that money(that they signed a contract to pay the player) back and spread it among themselves.

The star players are making as much or less than they did before(think Crosby signs for $8.7 without a cap?), and veterans who are not top stars are getting caught between the stars and young kids who come cheap. Except maybe for the cheap young kids, for whom exactly would things have been much worse for had they sat out another year?

Trevor Linden did not get a good deal for the players. He got a good deal for the owners. The only thing he did for the players was got them playing, which, in the cnotext of the deal they signed, was also a very good deal for the owners.

This was the view from a thread regarding Detroit's creativity with the cap, when I asked why was a year given up:

"it wasnt about a hard cap, it was about linkage. Cost certainty. The transfer of hundreds of millions of dollars paid to the players back to the owners. And the owners have it. They have everything they wanted. The players surrendered on bended knee, giving complete and total victory of the triple cap payroll range system to the owners along with Goodenows head on a plate of Russian Borscht from which he is now taunting them. Escrow backed cost certainty."

That is what Linden got the players. In hindsight I have to think there are several Calgary Flames wondering just what they were doing shaking his hand after that game.
If you did a poll and asked the players whether they would take that deal, or have gone through another year of lockout, what do you think they would do? They voted on the deal in 2005, and ratified it overwhelmingly.

They are getting paid more on average now than they were before the lockout. The dynamic has changed, with younger players getting a bigger piece of the pie, but those changes are the result of concessions won by the players. I'm sure the owners would be very happy to bump the age of free agency back up to 31.

Sidney Crosby could be getting much more than $8.7 right now if he wanted to. It was his choice to take a reduced contract. Not a very good poster boy for your argument.

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Old
08-31-2009, 01:10 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Wow, what a completely dysfunctional organization.

It's almost like a criminal enterprise. I guess that the presence of vast sums of money brings the vultures out.

You have to wonder whether the players understood how bad bringing in a guy like Buzz Hargrove would look. Most of these guys probably don't get past the sports section of the newspaper. Well, based on some of the columns we're seeing in the sports sections, they'll start to understand soon. I think the players executive are going to have some uncomfortable conversations with their teammates heading into camp.
this is essentially what unions are. Especially sports unions.

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Old
08-31-2009, 01:17 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Why do the players want this hustler on board?

Things seem pretty stable right now, what exactly are they looking for?
Unfortunately hockey players are the easiest to hustle. For the most part they're not well educated and they're products of an environment where people trust each other.

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08-31-2009, 01:20 PM
  #49
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Unfortunately hockey players are the easiest to hustle. For the most part they're not well educated and they're products of an environment where people trust each other.
I'd take issue with that statement.
Of all the sports I'd say hockey players are number 2 in the education ladder after baseball players.
YIKES, I'm disagreeing with the big guy

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08-31-2009, 01:24 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If you did a poll and asked the players whether they would take that deal, or have gone through another year of lockout, what do you think they would do? They voted on the deal in 2005, and ratified it overwhelmingly.

They are getting paid more on average now than they were before the lockout. The dynamic has changed, with younger players getting a bigger piece of the pie, but those changes are the result of concessions won by the players. I'm sure the owners would be very happy to bump the age of free agency back up to 31.

Sidney Crosby could be getting much more than $8.7 right now if he wanted to. It was his choice to take a reduced contract. Not a very good poster boy for your argument.
Yes they did vote overwhelmingly in 2005 in favor of that deal. Why? Because they let the "I just want to play hockey" mentality override business sense. Bob Goodenow got them everything they ever wanted, but when the time came to actually stand up to keep it, they said, "no we want to play hockey, see ya later Bob." Then they come to find out that they made a big mistake hiring Saskin, and signing a deal he negotiated with the adversary with whom he was quite buddy buddy.
Your use of mean average is quite a misleading number(as mean average tends to be). Pittsburgh's average salary, assuming 20 players is $2.835 million. Except when you look at it, 4 players are making nearly half that money. I have no problem with younger players getting a bigger piece of the pie if they are better, but 20% of the players are making half the money.

Crosby is the perfect poster boy for the argument. The most he could possibly make is $9.6 under the current deal, and the team has little room for enough other good players if they wish to be competitive. Your idea of choice is like chooing between a revolver or a glock to be the gun that shoots you. He had nowhere near the kind of choice you wish to have people believe he did. Without the cap he makes significantly higher money *and* Pittsburgh can get someone better than Bill Guerin to flank him. Crosby's choices and salary were both limited.

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