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Round 2, Vote 6 (2009 update)

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Old
08-31-2009, 09:02 AM
  #1
FissionFire
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Round 2, Vote 6 (2009 update)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
  • Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
  • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained
These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (35):
BM67, Canadiens1958, Canadiens Fan, cottonking, DaveG, Dennis_Bonvie, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, Jekyll, Jungosi, Kyle McMahon, lextune, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, NOTENOUGHBREWER, overpass, papershoes, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, Radovsky, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shirtless Joe, Spitfire11, Sturminator, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGoldenJet, tommygunn, Triffy, ushvinder, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

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Old
08-31-2009, 09:08 AM
  #2
FissionFire
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*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 6 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 9/6. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 9/6, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots. Please submit all ballots via PM to FissionFire or email them to hohtop100@yahoo.com

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 6 will be for places 51 through 60 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Andy Bathgate
Clint Benedict
Max Bentley
Walter "Turk" Broda
Francis "King" Clancy
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
Bill Durnan
Peter Forsberg
Tim Horton
Jari Kurri
Boris Mikhailov
Richard "Dickie" Moore
Pierre Pilote
Henri Richard
Earl Seibert

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08-31-2009, 09:18 AM
  #3
lextune
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Here is how the eligible candidates are ordered on my original list:

Jari Kurri
Bill Durnan
Andy Bathgate
Max Bentley
Pierre Pilote
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
Walter "Turk" Broda
Peter Forsberg
Richard "Dickie" Moore
Francis "King" Clancy
Tim Horton
Henri Richard
Boris Mikhailov
Clint Benedict
Earl Seibert

I have Kurri in the top 40 on my list so he's pretty much my lock for number one this round, but I have a lot of flexibility otherwise.

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08-31-2009, 09:23 AM
  #4
FissionFire
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I am hoping to have time to make a case for Earl Seibert this round. I feel many underrate him, especially his offense.

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08-31-2009, 09:43 AM
  #5
lextune
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
I am hoping to have time to make a case for Earl Seibert this round. I feel many underrate him, especially his offense.
I admit that I had him too low on my original list (79), I am sure he won't end up that low.....

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08-31-2009, 10:05 AM
  #6
seventieslord
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Wow, some tough calls here. Nice to see Mikhailov up for discussion. I'm going for Benedict and the defensemen to start with. Putting the forwards in order will be a tough task. It's good that Moore and Forsberg are up for voting at the same time, but I'm thinking neither should make the top-60.

All things considered, Bentley is now being considered in a group of forwards that better reflects his dominance. Moore, Forsberg, Richard, Mikhailov, Kurri... I'd feel much more comfortable ranking Bentley above these forwards than the guys from last round. Quite the polarizing player; Bentley had 2 first place votes but no others in the top-6.

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08-31-2009, 10:12 AM
  #7
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Sad to see that Makarov still isn't available yet. I consider him to be better than Mikhailov. Yet I think Mikhailov belongs somewhere around here.

My surefire votes for this round however are :

Bathgate, Bentley, Seibert, Horton, Pilote and Kurri. 4 spots are up to debate. Hope to see some interesting arguements.

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08-31-2009, 10:15 AM
  #8
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Here are my numbers and analysis for the players who played since the 1967 expansion. They rest on the idea that there are three separate phases of the game of hockey - even-strength play, power play, and penalty killing - and these should be evaluated separately.

These don't include playoffs or intangibles and can't be taken as the final word, but can hopefully provide some information in certain areas.

Stat Glossary:

$ESGF/G - even-strength goals for per game, adjusted for scoring level. Higher is better.
$ESGA/G - even-strength goals against per game, adjusted for scoring level. Lower is better.
R-ON - Player's even-strength on-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA). Should be higher than R-OFF.
R-OFF - Player's even-strength off-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA).
XEV+/- - Players expected EV+/-, based on off-ice results.
EV+/- - Even-strength plus-minus, adjusted for scoring level.
AEV+/- - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus. =(EV+/-) - (XEV+/-). If you look at just one number, make it this one.
/82 - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus per season.
SH% - . Percentage of team's PPGA the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role in killing penalties, but not effectiveness.
PP% - Percentage of team's PPGF the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role on the power play, but not effectiveness.
$PPP - Scoring-adjusted power play points per game.
$ESP - Scoring-adjusted even-strength points per game.


Tim Horton
Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G $ESP/G
Tim Horton 68-69 1.91 1.38 1.15 1.20 1.07 9 37 28 14.42885974 63% 51% 0.13 0.39
Tim Horton 70-74 4.13 1.08 0.96 1.13 1.03 7 41 34 8.353875571 58% 19% 0.05 0.22
Tim Horton 68-74 6.03 1.18 1.02 1.15 1.04 16 78 62 10.27305122 60% 29% 0.08 0.27

Horton's first two years post-expansion were among his three first-team all-star selections. During these years he played huge minutes at even strength, with good numbers, and also played big minutes on the Leafs' league-best penalty kill. He also played a regular role on the power play. In his forties, his even-strength and power play role diminished, but he remained a key penalty killer. Obviously, these numbers don't cover most of his career.

Jari Kurri

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G $ESP/G
Jari Kurri 81-83 2.83 1.10 0.69 1.60 1.16 22 95 74 26 12% 41% 0.22 0.77
Jari Kurri 84-88 4.68 1.36 0.87 1.57 1.31 81 190 108 23 24% 57% 0.33 0.96
Jari Kurri 89-95 5.57 0.84 0.90 0.93 0.95 -14 -28 -14 -2 31% 58% 0.36 0.57
Jari Kurri 96-98 2.72 0.56 0.65 0.85 1.07 6 -22 -28 -10 33% 30% 0.14 0.37
Jari Kurri 81-98 15.79 0.99 0.81 1.22 1.12 95 236 140 9 26% 52% 0.29 0.75

Kurri's prime was obviously heavily influenced by his linemate Gretzky, but he brought substantial contributions on his own also.

First, Kurri was a contributor on the penalty kill and on the power play. He was a threat to score on the penalty kill - the numbers aren't included in this table but he scored 39 goals and 41 assists over his career while shorthanded. On the power play, he was actually not terribly productive, mostly because he never played big minutes. Edmonton's strategy was always to ride Gretzky and Coffey and cycle through everyone else on the PP.

At even strength, Kurri had excellent numbers during his years in Edmonton. These numbers are obviously influenced by Gretzky to some degree, especially his excellent even-strength scoring. However, Kurri brought strong defense and skills to the table himself, so he likely deserves some of the credit for these numbers. His post-Edmonton even-strength numbers are average, but that was typical of over-30 players at the time.

Peter Forsberg

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G $ESP/G
Peter Forsberg 95-97 2.77 1.12 0.68 1.66 1.25 32 101 69 25 36% 59% 0.43 0.92
Peter Forsberg 98-01 3.32 1.09 0.72 1.52 1.09 15 101 86 26 28% 77% 0.55 0.90
Peter Forsberg 03-08 2.93 1.25 0.58 2.16 0.92 -12 161 173 59 2% 75% 0.52 1.00
Peter Forsberg 95-08 9.02 1.15 0.66 1.74 1.08 34 362 328 36 22% 71% 0.51 0.94

Forsberg was hands down the best player of this group and it's not even close. Yes, he had a short career, so you could argue that he had less career value than others, but he dominated like few players have.

His even-strength numbers are superb. Among post-expansion forwards, only Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Lafleur, and Esposito were better even-strength scorers in their prime. Forsberg was on the ice for many fewer (scoring adjusted) goals against than any of them except for Lafleur, suggesting that he was either a strong defensive player (whether by backchecking or by puck possession) or he was scoring his points in fewer minutes.

He was also an excellent power play scorer. After adjusting for scoring level, his power play scoring is among the best post-expansion, behind Lemieux, Esposito and Gretzky and similar to Lafleur, Dionne, Bossy, and Sakic.

He killed penalties in his earlier years in the league also.

Henri Richard

Player Year Seasons $ESGF/G $ESGA/G R-ON R-OFF XEV+/- EV+/- AEV+/- /82 SH% PP% $PPP/G $ESP/G
Henri Richard 68-70 2.39 1.00 0.67 1.50 1.23 23 65 42 18 2% 20% 0.13 0.71
Henri Richard 71-75 3.99 0.77 0.57 1.36 1.48 60 76 15 4 3% 7% 0.06 0.61
Henri Richard 68-75 6.38 0.89 0.62 1.43 1.35 84 141 57 9 3% 12% 0.08 0.65

This covers the post-prime portion of Henri Richard's career. He was still a fine player at even-strength, but not as good as he had been in the late '50s and the '60s.

Henri Richard is a difficult player to rate, with a unique career shape. Because he was on excellent teams his whole career, he played a different role than the other players up for voting so far. Almost all his contribution came at even-strength, with very little on special teams. However, he was the Canadiens top option and most productive forward at even strength during his prime. In fact, he was as productive as any player in the league at even strength during those years.

Here are the top even-strength scorers in the NHL from 1955-56 (when Richard broke in as a 19 year old) to 1966-67, a 12 year period.

Player Years GP Pts ESG ESA ESP PPG PPA PPP ESP/G PPP/G
Richard 56-67 764 710 222 343 565 41 97 138 0.74 0.18
Howe 56-67 826 920 245 330 575 120 192 312 0.70 0.38
Beliveau 56-67 745 830 217 300 517 126 181 307 0.69 0.41
Bathgate 56-67 811 825 232 326 558 55 205 260 0.69 0.32
Ullman 56-67 817 703 233 290 523 55 102 157 0.64 0.19
Delvecchio 56-67 816 691 191 267 458 65 144 209 0.56 0.26

This table doesn't cover Gordie Howe's prime, and doesn't include Mikita and Hull who starred during the latter part of this period. Still, it's very impressive that Henri Richard was (probably) the best player in the league at even-strength over a 12 year period.

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08-31-2009, 11:10 AM
  #9
Howe Elbows 9
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Defensemen:

Dit Clapper was voted to the first or second AST as a defenseman more often than as a winger, so I'm listing him here. The AST selections at forward were in 30-31 and 34-35, and the AST selections at D started in 38-39.

King Clancy started his NHL career in 1921-22, and all-star teams were first selected in 1930-31.

All-star team selections

Player First AST Second AST Total
King Clancy 2 2 4
Dit Clapper 3 3 6
Tim Horton 3 3 6
Pierre Pilote 5 3 8
Earl Seibert 4 6 10

Norris voting

Season First Second Third
1961-62 Harvey Pilote Talbot
1962-63 Pilote Brewer Horton
1963-64 Pilote Horton Vasko
1964-65 Pilote Laperriere Gadsby
1965-66 Laperriere Pilote Stapleton
1966-67 Howell Pilote Orr

Season First Second Third
1962-63 Pilote Brewer Horton
1963-64 Pilote Horton Vasko
1967-68 Orr Tremblay Horton
1968-69 Orr Horton Green

Hart voting

Season First Second Third Fourth Fifth
1926-27 Gardiner Cook Frederickson Irvin Clancy
1928-29 Worters Bailey Shore Mantha Clancy
1929-30 Stewart Hitchman Weiland Clancy Boucher
1930-31 Morenz Shore Clancy Goodfellow Stewart
1933-34 Joliat L. Conacher Clancy Seibert Worters

Season First Second Third Fourth Fifth
1933-34 Joliat L. Conacher Clancy Seibert Worters
1943-44 Pratt Cowley D. Bentley Seibert Carr

Season First Second Third Fourth Fifth
1939-40 Goodfellow Apps Clapper Schmidt Robinson
1940-41 Cowley Clapper Apps Howe Hextall

Career regular season scoring compared to (somewhat) contemporary defensemen

Player Seasons GP G A TP PPG PIM
King Clancy 1921-1937 592 136 147 283 0.48 914
Eddie Shore 1926-1937 444 94 147 241 0.54 945
Hap Day 1924-1937 538 86 113 199 0.37 587

Player Seasons GP G A TP PPG PIM
Dit Clapper 1927-1947 833 228 246 474 0.57 462
Ebbie Goodfellow 1929-1943 557 134 190 324 0.58 511
Flash Hollett 1933-1946 562 132 181 313 0.56 358

Player Seasons GP G A TP PPG PIM
Flash Hollett 1933-1946 562 132 181 313 0.56 358
Babe Pratt 1935-1946 486 79 205 284 0.58 438
Earl Seibert 1931-1946 645 89 187 276 0.43 746

Player Seasons GP G A TP PPG PIM
Red Kelly 1949-1967 1197 270 517 787 0.66 304
Bill Gadsby 1949-1966 1090 113 408 521 0.48 1357
Tim Horton 1949-1974 1446 115 403 518 0.36 1611

Player Seasons GP G A TP PPG PIM
Red Kelly 1955-1967 788 172 334 506 0.64 201
Pierre Pilote 1955-1969 890 80 418 498 0.56 1251
Tim Horton 1955-1969 914 92 283 375 0.41 1025

Thanks for the correction about Northcott, seventieslord. No comments about Goodfellow being listed as a defensemen? With players like Clapper and Goodfellow, I'm not really sure where to draw the line.


Last edited by Howe Elbows 9: 09-01-2009 at 01:10 AM. Reason: Multiple errors.
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Old
08-31-2009, 11:55 AM
  #10
seventieslord
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Baldy Northcott is mistakenly listed as a defenseman at hockey-reference. He must have played it quite briefly. He should not be included in a comparison with 1930s defensemen.

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08-31-2009, 12:36 PM
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A couple surprises.. still no Frank Nighbor..

And Mikhailov up for voting before Makarov.. and Maltsev.

Henri Richard will top my list.. followed by Clint Benedict. The rest I'll have to give more thought into and am eager to hear arguments for and discussion on each remaining player.

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08-31-2009, 12:41 PM
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1956-1967

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Still, it's very impressive that Henri Richard was (probably) the best player in the league at even-strength over a 12 year period.
Very impressive stat.. and just adds to my feelings on him.

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08-31-2009, 12:45 PM
  #13
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Ratings for this round (from the top of my head):

1. Max Bentley
2. Dickie Moore
3. Henri Richard
4. Dit Clapper
5. Andy Bathgate
6. Pierre Pilote
7. Tim Horton
8. King Clancy
9. Earl Siebert
10. Turk Broda
11. Bill Durnan
12. Jari Kurri
13. Peter Forsberg
14. Boris Mikhailov
15. Clint Benedict

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08-31-2009, 12:51 PM
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Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Still, it's very impressive that Henri Richard was (probably) the best player in the league at even-strength over a 12 year period.
And was one of the best shutdown forwards during the same period.

People often criticize his scoring finishes, but fail to adjust for the fact that he was given limited PP time, where a good bulk of most top players points come from.

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08-31-2009, 01:21 PM
  #15
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Pocket Rocket

"Over the years I have been blessed with a great number of superstars. But game in, and game out, Henri Richard was the most valuable player I ever had."
-Frank Selke Sr.

Look at some of the players Selke managed: the Rocket, Beliveau, Harvey, Geoffrion, Moore, Plante, Apps, Kennedy, Broda, Clancy, Primeau, Jackson, Horner, Hainsworth, Blake, Lach, Durnan, Cournoyer.. to name a few.

Henri Richard might not have been the most important player on the Habs in any one year, but an argument can be made that over his entire career he was. In fact, as I've noted above, Frank Selke Sr. even said as much.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED FISHER'S TOP 10 HABS OF ALL-TIME (non goalies):

10: Serge Savard
9: Dickie Moore (up for voting now)
8: Bob Gainey
7: Boom Boom Geoffrion (43rd in HOH Top 100)
6: Larry Robinson (31st in HOH Top 100)
5: Henri Richard
4: Doug Harvey (6th in HOH Top 100)
3: Guy Lafleur (19th in HOH Top 100)
2: Rocket Richard (9th in HOH Top 100)
1: Jean Beliveau (7th in HOH Top 100)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From last year's discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
"Henri is always there. Every time I pick up the puck he's coming at me from somewhere. He's been hit quite a few times; by me, by our defense, but he doesn't stop. It's frustrating when you outweigh a guy by 20 pounds, knock him down and he's up and gone before you are." - Bobby Clarke

"We had to sign him. At camp, he took the puck and nobody could take it away from him. He was just too good not to sign." - Toe Blake

"Looks like Henri Richard brought his own puck to the rink again." - Rudy Pilous

"You can take Beliveau and all the others. Give me Henri. That little bugger could skate for five minutes without getting tired." - Ken Reardon
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Just to pull a quote from Phil Esposito's book: "Henri Richard. That son of a ***** was the best centre I ever played against. He was good on faceoffs. He was fast. The little ******* could score. He was a tough little guy and I respected him. Henri was the most underrated player on the Canadiens."

In Larry Robinson's book, he tells a story about how after Philly (led by Bobby Clarke) beat Montreal in Game 1 in the `73 semis, Scotty Bowman pointed at Bobby Clarke then said to Richard simply "He's yours." Richard completely shut down Clarke the rest of the series.

Now I know you could find anecdotes about any player, but they seem to come up about Richard more than most players.

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08-31-2009, 02:42 PM
  #16
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Richard should be a shoo-in for this round. I think he's undoubtedly the smartest player, and the best defensive forward, among the options for this round. Clarke and Schmidt would be the only forwards whose defensive skills are on par with Richard's.

Some guys punish him because they can't pigeon-hole him into their bogus statistical formulas. Hockey transcends stats, and you don't evaluate a guy like Richard based on stats, other than possibly his 11 Stanley Cup rings. Bottom line is that the guy led the league in assists, captained Cup champions, set a record for success that will probably never be broken, and it did all while playing a brilliant two-way game.

His stats were hurt for a variety of reasons. He was trapped behind Beliveau in Montreal. Can't help that. Montreal didn't have the offensive depth in the 60s that they had in the late 50s. The top four wingers in Montreal in the 50s were the Rocket, Olmstead, Geoffrion and Moore. In the pre-expansion 60s, which should have been Richard's prime, it was moreso guys like Duff, Tremblay, Provost, Rousseau, Ferguson, Claude Larose, Dave Balon, Bill Hickie, and Don Marshall - good two-way wingers, but not as offensively dangerous as their predecessors. (Duff's the only one in the HHOF, and he was a contentious induction who had to wait about 30 years).

If he was in another market, he gets the top line duty and he's probably a perennial top five guy for assists. At the same time, if he's in another market, he doesn't win 11 Cups, and he doesn't have the legacy he has now.

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08-31-2009, 02:43 PM
  #17
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
Very impressive stat.. and just adds to my feelings on him.
Things like that are going to make a believer out of me, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Ratings for this round (from the top of my head):

1. Max Bentley
2. Dickie Moore
3. Henri Richard
4. Dit Clapper
5. Andy Bathgate
6. Pierre Pilote
7. Tim Horton
8. King Clancy
9. Earl Siebert
10. Turk Broda
11. Bill Durnan
12. Jari Kurri
13. Peter Forsberg
14. Boris Mikhailov
15. Clint Benedict
- I thought you said before that you needed to take a look at Benedict and give him a rise in your rankings. Apparently, you still do.

- I'm not arguing particularly that Moore should be lower or Forsberg higher, but how can two players with such remarkably similar career trajectories be so far apart?

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08-31-2009, 02:47 PM
  #18
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Some guys punish him because they can't pigeon-hole him into their bogus statistical formulas. Hockey transcends stats, and you don't evaluate a guy like Richard based on stats, other than possibly his 11 Stanley Cup rings. Bottom line is that the guy led the league in assists, captained Cup champions, set a record for success that will probably never be broken, and it did all while playing a brilliant two-way game.


just buggin' ya, GBC.

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08-31-2009, 02:52 PM
  #19
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There are two goalies in this round (Durnan and Broda) who are better than Benedict. And there's another one (Bower) who is better than Benedict. Benedict warrants consideration at this point. He should not be voted in at this point.

Moore does have some similarities in terms of his career when compared with Forsberg, but Moore should still have the edge. Moore was a better goal-scorer. He has an edge when it comes to Art Ross. He set a league record for points in a season - a record that stood for nearly a decade. And as good as Forsberg was in the playoffs, Moore was better. He played such a pivotal role on a dynasty - the gifted offensive player who could set plays up and finish them off, while providing tremendous grit and toughness. Worth noting is that he led the Blues in scoring in the 68 playoffs, even though he was 37, and he hadn't played the game in three years. A tremendous big-game player.

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08-31-2009, 02:53 PM
  #20
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I'm surprised Kurri is up for voting before Stastny. During thier first 10 years in the league together, Stastny had a 1.41 ppg and Kurri was 1.38. You also have to consider the fact that Kurri was getting inflated numbers from gretzky. He doesn't score 70 goals and 135 points without gretzky.

Clint Benedict will be my first pick here because he was the best goalie of his era and you can only compete against guys from your own era. He was the league's best goalie like 6 or 7 times.

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08-31-2009, 03:25 PM
  #21
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
There are two goalies in this round (Durnan and Broda) who are better than Benedict. And there's another one (Bower) who is better than Benedict. Benedict warrants consideration at this point. He should not be voted in at this point.
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I'm surprised Kurri is up for voting before Stastny. During thier first 10 years in the league together, Stastny had a 1.41 ppg and Kurri was 1.38. You also have to consider the fact that Kurri was getting inflated numbers from gretzky. He doesn't score 70 goals and 135 points without gretzky.

Clint Benedict will be my first pick here because he was the best goalie of his era and you can only compete against guys from your own era. He was the league's best goalie like 6 or 7 times.
AT LEAST 6 or 7 times when you consider his NHA years. And he was stellar in the playoffs. Much better in the playoffs than Durnan, and much better in the regular season than Broda. Overall, more valuable than either of them.

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08-31-2009, 03:31 PM
  #22
Spitfire11
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Guess it's never too late to join in. Although I'll probably move a few of them around, here's how I currently have this group ranked.

1 Peter Forsberg
2 Henri Richard
3 Richard "Dickie" Moore
4 Walter "Turk" Broda
5 Tim Horton
6 Pierre Pilote
7 Max Bentley
8 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper
9 Earl Seibert
10 Clint Benedict
11 Andy Bathgate
12 Bill Durnan
13 Jari Kurri
14 Boris Mikhailov
15 Francis "King" Clancy

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08-31-2009, 03:39 PM
  #23
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by tommygunn View Post
"Over the years I have been blessed with a great number of superstars. But game in, and game out, Henri Richard was the most valuable player I ever had."
-Frank Selke Sr.

Look at some of the players Selke managed: the Rocket, Beliveau, Harvey, Geoffrion, Moore, Plante, Apps, Kennedy, Broda, Clancy, Primeau, Jackson, Horner, Hainsworth, Blake, Lach, Durnan, Cournoyer.. to name a few.

Henri Richard might not have been the most important player on the Habs in any one year, but an argument can be made that over his entire career he was. In fact, as I've noted above, Frank Selke Sr. even said as much.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RED FISHER'S TOP 10 HABS OF ALL-TIME (non goalies):

10: Serge Savard
9: Dickie Moore (up for voting now)
8: Bob Gainey
7: Boom Boom Geoffrion (43rd in HOH Top 100)
6: Larry Robinson (31st in HOH Top 100)
5: Henri Richard
4: Doug Harvey (6th in HOH Top 100)
3: Guy Lafleur (19th in HOH Top 100)
2: Rocket Richard (9th in HOH Top 100)
1: Jean Beliveau (7th in HOH Top 100)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From last year's discussion:
Good to see some others standing up for Henri Richard this year.

I allowed people to chip away at me and convince me to move him lower on my list after a bunch of different conversations. But right after I sent my master list in, I ended up just shooting him back up a bunch of spots.

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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Richard should be a shoo-in for this round. I think he's undoubtedly the smartest player, and the best defensive forward, among the options for this round. Clarke and Schmidt would be the only forwards whose defensive skills are on par with Richard's.

Some guys punish him because they can't pigeon-hole him into their bogus statistical formulas. Hockey transcends stats, and you don't evaluate a guy like Richard based on stats, other than possibly his 11 Stanley Cup rings. Bottom line is that the guy led the league in assists, captained Cup champions, set a record for success that will probably never be broken, and it did all while playing a brilliant two-way game.

His stats were hurt for a variety of reasons. He was trapped behind Beliveau in Montreal. Can't help that. Montreal didn't have the offensive depth in the 60s that they had in the late 50s. The top four wingers in Montreal in the 50s were the Rocket, Olmstead, Geoffrion and Moore. In the pre-expansion 60s, which should have been Richard's prime, it was moreso guys like Duff, Tremblay, Provost, Rousseau, Ferguson, Claude Larose, Dave Balon, Bill Hickie, and Don Marshall - good two-way wingers, but not as offensively dangerous as their predecessors. (Duff's the only one in the HHOF, and he was a contentious induction who had to wait about 30 years).

If he was in another market, he gets the top line duty and he's probably a perennial top five guy for assists. At the same time, if he's in another market, he doesn't win 11 Cups, and he doesn't have the legacy he has now.
Again, great to see him getting support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I'm surprised Kurri is up for voting before Stastny. During thier first 10 years in the league together, Stastny had a 1.41 ppg and Kurri was 1.38. You also have to consider the fact that Kurri was getting inflated numbers from gretzky. He doesn't score 70 goals and 135 points without gretzky.
First of all let me say, I agree with you. I personally had Stastny a fair bit higher than Kurri.

However, must you always try to insult other players in order to give props to another player?

Gretzky was a freak of Nature, and I do agree that Kurri likely does not have that monster season without him. Guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr transcended the norm in their ability to elevate teammates. However, I still think Kurri would have consistently been a strong scoring threat for 50+ goals and 100+ points no matter who he played with.

Kurri's last year with Gretzky: 43 goals, 96 points in 80 games
Kurri's first year without Gretzky: 44 goals, 102 points in 76 games.

One would think losing a 180-200 point producing greatest playmaker of all time would have negatively impacted Kurri if he mattered so much. Given that he was replaced by Jimmy Carson and on occasion, Messier(Who was still had Anderson as his RW more often than not).

And in the end, only focusing on PPG is going to overlook a huge part of Kurri's game. His stellar defensive play. A guy who was reading the play, covering and backchecking while his primary Defenseman pinched in deep, confusing opposing forwards as to who to cover and take out of the play, and the guy who was staying in deep when the other team was attacking while a few of his teammates were hovering around the blueline waiting to attack.

And again, I agree with you about rating Stastny higher. But you are taking the slagging of other players on the list too far. Why not compare Stastny favorably to some guys already on the list instead?

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Old
08-31-2009, 03:40 PM
  #24
TheDevilMadeMe
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Sad to see that Makarov still isn't available yet. I consider him to be better than Mikhailov. Yet I think Mikhailov belongs somewhere around here.

.
Agree with this one. Makarov was just as important as Fetisov to the 80s Soviet team, as his record in the Player of the Year voting attests to. Sure, he lacked the lengthy NHL career when he was past his prime, but I really don't think that should hurt him too much.

As for the guys who got in, I'm disappointed but not terribly surprised that Dionne got in over guys who were very good playoff performers like Max Bentley and Pierre Pilote.

Boucher went up a lot of spots from last time.

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Old
08-31-2009, 03:42 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

- I'm not arguing particularly that Moore should be lower or Forsberg higher, but how can two players with such remarkably similar career trajectories be so far apart?
Agree 100%. In my opinion, the biggest difference between Moore and Forsberg is that Moore was lucky enough to play on the best team of all time.

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