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Old
08-31-2009, 11:51 AM
  #76
LyNX27
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My summary of this thread is... If Lisin makes the cut... It's not a surprise, the question will be, who gets cut. I don't even think anyone pencils in Voros at this point, especially not Ahmbul

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08-31-2009, 11:53 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by SkerZ View Post
I feel that this is the common miss conception with gretzky he was an amazing PLAYER and has great hockey sense but I don't know if that translates into him being a great coach..the Coyotes never impressed me while he is at the helm..Flame suit is on but this is just how I feel
I agree that Gretzky isn't the greatest coach in the league, but watching a player and evaluating his skillset isn't rocket science.

I don't agree with the notion that Lisin is a cast-off by Phoenix. They simply had players ahead of Lisin that were earning regular time in the top-six and needed someone who played more of a two-way game. Now, whether Lisin was in the bottom six due to Gretzky playing favorites or if he actually isn't good enough for regular duty in the NHL remains to be seen.

Frankly, I think this was a very good deal for both teams. That is, before the Rangers went out and signed Kotalik and Prospal.

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08-31-2009, 11:57 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
For me Lisin is a lock. You guys might not have seen him play and can't say... or say hes "on the bubble" but he might be the 2nd most talented offensive player on the team. And thats a lot for me to say.

If you ask phoenix fans, they say that he was used wrong, played on the 3rd line, or just not used at all. Shunned for questionable/no reason.

I'm not saying this guy is a 40 goal scorer, but if he finds himself on the top 2 lines, 20 is not out of the question at all. And I suggest we don't put him on a line with gaborik. They both have the same style which might conflict a bit seeing as they both might want to hold onto the puck.

Also I know Drury has been slated in at center but Prospal also plays decently at center so I could see something like this...

Callahan - Prospal - Gaborik
Drury - Dubinsky - Lisin
Kotalik - Anisimov - Higgins

Did you notice something... No Avery :/ Not to say thats what I think the lines will be, but they might end up like that, I'm just mentioning a chance. Someone is gonna get screwed Petr Prucha style this season and it's going to be dirty because chances are they will probably be a good player, but just one we can't utilize as well as we would like to because our offensive forward depth. Although with Tort's amount of on ice activity, we might have a few players wear out and in the end it will be fine.
Callahan is a RW, Kotalik is a RW, Higgins is a LW

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08-31-2009, 12:01 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by rangers32185 View Post
Callahan is a RW, Kotalik is a RW, Higgins is a LW
I was making quick impromptu lines but thanks for helping me out there...

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08-31-2009, 12:03 PM
  #80
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I'm not going to rehash everything I have written about Lisin this summer but I see him as having 1st line offensive skills and ECHL level play away from the puck. IF, IF the light goes on, he can be a special player. I think the most likely scenario is that he fights for ice time at the start of the season, develops his all around game and get a chance when inevitable injuries occur. It's a nice luxury to have because his upside is so high. Keep in mind he was a homesick kid when he first got to Phoenix but has tried very hard to learn English and assimilate. He'll fit much better with the Rangers.

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08-31-2009, 12:05 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
no im not. i am asking a legit question.

wasnt wayne gretztky fairly one dimension ? or, ill ask this question.

was wayne gretzky a 2 way player ?

my point is not to compare lisin with gretzky but to say that you do not have to be a great 2 way player to be a great player.

and, if lisin isnt a "complete" player defensively, doesnt that make him closer in "style" to jagr, bure, kovalev, heck even kovalchuk and certainly wayne gretzky ??

and i just laugh at all the talk about how wayne didnt play lisin because he wasnt defensively responsible enough when wayne pretty much played the same way that lisin plays.
Let's say gretzky was a 1 dimensional player. What's your point? His other deficiencies were overlooked because he was the best overall player in the game. Are you suggesting that Lisin's talent makes him eligible for the same treatment?

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08-31-2009, 12:05 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
This Lisin fastest skater thing has to be exaggeration. I mean, have you guys seen guys like Matt Cullen, Andrew Cogliano and Andy McDonald skate?
I've seen every one of these guys and Lisin more than anyone else and he is faster than any of them. I stand on my statement that he is right there as the fastest player in the league. Cullen?

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I have no idea if Gretzky will turn out to be a good or bad coach.
Verdict's already in on this one. As a coach, Gretzky is a great player.

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08-31-2009, 12:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Lisin, to me, is a clear-cut top-six or nothing player. He's a offensive threat, but there isn't much else to his game that would make him serviceable in the bottom six. This smells like Prucha on the checking line all over again.
well it will be easy, especially now, to say that lisin is the new prucha but heres where you would be wrong.

1. lisin is bigger, taller and stronger.

2. lisin is faster and more elusive.

3. lisin is a shooter. hes a scorer.

4. lisin knows how to carry the pill and not get killed.

5. lisin is a better overall talent. not even close.

hes clearly a top 6 talent. hes not a checker.

some guys are defensive players only- think blair betts.

some guys are solid 2 way players- think ryan callahan or dubinsky

some guys are more offensive- think gaborik who can play some defense thanks to lemaires coaching.

some guys are all offense- think a young kovalev or bure or even jagr.

it remains to be seen what type of player enver lisin will be for us

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08-31-2009, 12:21 PM
  #84
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Lisin up, I'm not sure any of us know what Lisin is capable of, but if I've been Lisin'ing to everyone correctly, he seems to have alot of questions surrounding what he will be. I guess we'll learn our Lisin come training camp.....

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08-31-2009, 12:27 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Lisin up, I'm not sure any of us know what Lisin is capable of, but if I've been Lisin'ing to everyone correctly, he seems to have alot of questions surrounding what he will be. I guess we'll learn our Lisin come training camp.....
Lisin will score 25-20 for 45 this year. Just my prediction

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08-31-2009, 12:56 PM
  #86
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i love how much everybody knows about Lisin. I would be interested to see who's seen him play oh...lets say 10 full games? I stand corrected if anybody has.

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08-31-2009, 12:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
i love how much everybody knows about Lisin. I would be interested to see who's seen him play oh...lets say 10 full games? I stand corrected if anybody has.
You stand corrected.

I'm sure FutureYotes also has something to say on this as well.

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08-31-2009, 01:09 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
i love how much everybody knows about Lisin. I would be interested to see who's seen him play oh...lets say 10 full games? I stand corrected if anybody has.
and i assume you've made no comments ever on say.......... grachev, anisimov or even cherepanov ever...... since you have never seen them play 10 games. right ?

so your point is, unless youve seen them play 10 games, you cannot have an opinion or a position other than a negative one.

um........ ok.

and wouldnt it be logical then to also say, that if you havent seen him play "10 games" then all the neysayers who speak of defensive liabilities and lapses would also be unable to comment as well ?

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08-31-2009, 01:10 PM
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What hes saying makes sense.

If i tried to tell everyone on here how to bake a cake and I've never baked one before. I have only seen other cakes... I shouldn't really be saying much, as what ever I have to say is not very noteworthy or correct.

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08-31-2009, 01:35 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
What hes saying makes sense.

If i tried to tell everyone on here how to bake a cake and I've never baked one before. I have only seen other cakes... I shouldn't really be saying much, as what ever I have to say is not very noteworthy or correct.
that sounds ok but really makes no sense. baking a cake i guess in your example is seeing lisin play in person for 10 games. if you havent seen him then you havent "baked a cake" right??

cant i just tell you how to bake a cake by reading the instuctions even if ive never baked one myself?

somethings are obvious.

ive never had a baby, do i need to have one to know it hurts ? i was present for the birth of my 3 children but didnt give birth. since i didnt give birth do i not have a right to comment or have an opinion ?

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08-31-2009, 01:36 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
What hes saying makes sense.

If i tried to tell everyone on here how to bake a cake and I've never baked one before. I have only seen other cakes... I shouldn't really be saying much, as what ever I have to say is not very noteworthy or correct.
This is what i got out of the post.

Lisin + cake =

Speeding down the wing, with a chocolate cake in hand, Lisin rips a wrist shot right above the goalie's glove to win game 7 of the SC finals against the Chicago Blackhawks!!!

You know it'll happen

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08-31-2009, 01:38 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
well it will be easy, especially now, to say that lisin is the new prucha but heres where you would be wrong.

1. lisin is bigger, taller and stronger.

2. lisin is faster and more elusive.

3. lisin is a shooter. hes a scorer.

4. lisin knows how to carry the pill and not get killed.

5. lisin is a better overall talent. not even close.

hes clearly a top 6 talent. hes not a checker.

some guys are defensive players only- think blair betts.

some guys are solid 2 way players- think ryan callahan or dubinsky

some guys are more offensive- think gaborik who can play some defense thanks to lemaires coaching.

some guys are all offense- think a young kovalev or bure or even jagr.

it remains to be seen what type of player enver lisin will be for us
You've missed my point entirely. Nowhere did I say Prucha was better or worse than Lisin or vice-versa. I was simply comparing the use of two offensive-minded players being used as checking line wingers.

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08-31-2009, 01:43 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
and i assume you've made no comments ever on say.......... grachev, anisimov or even cherepanov ever...... since you have never seen them play 10 games. right ?
I have never offered an opinion on a player I haven't seen enough times to have a feel for.

Telling us that so and so is going to be great when they know little to nothing about the player is usually just a case of wanting to beat the crowds in order to claim that you "knew" before the rest of us. Then we can all pat these seers on the back.

What gets lost is the fact that the overwhelming part of the time, it doesn't turn out as predicted and the seers are now on to the next "great" player they want to educate us about.

The problem comes for a lot of us when someone starts comparing a total nobody, to date, to the greatest forward in the history of ice hockey. Us doubters have the far more reasoned and reasonable stance in a case like this. Maybe it's because we've seen this scenario play out many times before. I don't know.

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08-31-2009, 01:46 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
ive never had a baby, do i need to have one to know it hurts ? i was present for the birth of my 3 children but didnt give birth. since i didnt give birth do i not have a right to comment or have an opinion ?
That's a terrible analogy. It would be a wrong choice on an SAT test.

It's a fact that giving childbirth can be very painful. Where is the corresponding fact that Lisin will be a very good hockey player?

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08-31-2009, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RussianRangersFan View Post
This is what i got out of the post.

Lisin + cake =

Speeding down the wing, with a chocolate cake in hand, Lisin rips a wrist shot right above the goalie's glove to win game 7 of the SC finals against the Chicago Blackhawks!!!

You know it'll happen
Put on some deodorant, your post reeks of WIN!

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08-31-2009, 01:57 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
That's a terrible analogy. It would be a wrong choice on an SAT test.

It's a fact that giving childbirth can be very painful. Where is the corresponding fact that Lisin will be a very good hockey player?
its a fact that his offensive skills are elite. in order to be an impact offensive player, one needs to have certain skills that almost all elite players have. lisin has those thus he could be a very good hockey player.

those are measurable variables and an assertion can be made based upon his skills, and compared to other players with similar skills, that he will be, given the right circumstances, an impact player.

blair betts will not be an offensive impact player because he lacks the skills.

enver lisin can be an impact player. he has the skills

one could reasonably expect to draw a conclusion that, given the above, enver lisin has all the right tools to be an elite goal scorer for this team.

we know it can happen, what we dont know is if it will happen.

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08-31-2009, 01:59 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its a fact that his offensive skills are elite. in order to be an impact offensive player, one needs to have certain skills that almost all elite players have. lisin has those thus he could be a very good hockey player.

those are measurable variables and an assertion can be made based upon his skills, and compared to other players with similar skills, that he will be, given the right circumstances, an impact player.

blair betts will not be an offensive impact player because he lacks the skills.

enver lisin can be an impact player. he has the skills

one could reasonably expect to draw a conclusion that, given the above, enver lisin has all the right tools to be an elite goal scorer for this team.

we know it can happen, what we dont know is if it will happen.
This is like Zherdev sydrome... The guy has the skills to stick handle in a telephone booth, but just chooses not to bite down and put in that "extra" effort.

It's the intangibles everyone is always talking about... Some call it luck, some people can't even say what it is, it just happens for them. Plus hockey is such a game about inches... 1 inch up, 2 inches down, stick randomly in the way... They totally change the outcome/rebound/save.

Example... a few random bits at the beginning of the year and Voros is scoring at an Ovechkin rate... suddenly nothing.

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08-31-2009, 02:08 PM
  #98
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Interesting responses so far (although about half of them are off topic). A couple of thoughts:

1) The Gretzky-Lisin thing is getting silly. No one said that he was going to approach Gretzky's career. It was simply a "style of play" comparison and those of you taking the con position are choosing to interpret it literally to slam the player. Which is funny given that the premise of the thread was "allow yourself to be optimistic for once - what is the ripple effcet on the lineup if Lisin DOES play his way on to the top 2 lines?"

2) To this point in the thread, general consensus seems to be that IF Lisin makes the top 6, Avery is going to the 4th line (albeit there are some variations as to what the configuration of the top 9 would be). I continue to think that this is the most likely alternative. As a couple of you pointed out, it's not like Avery is in a position to complain about anything and we've already seen that Torts has a short leash with him. I can totally see him starting most games on the 4th and then getting more or less time depending on whether or not he's having one of his "benefit" games or one of his "detriment" games that night.

3) The only other alternative that anyone offered would be that Anisimov could start out as the fourth line center. Interesting... Of course that is in direct contradiction to Gordie Clark's statement about him having to play his way out of the third line center spot, but then again that statement was made before Prospal was acquired. There is SOME sense to this, especially if that's how they start the season and then AA has the opportunity to move up as he gets his feet wet. It also allows Avery to stay in the top 9. Having said that, it also means that a) Prospal's getting significant time as a center and b) Anisimov's obviously getting limited ice time - and I come back to my original argument having players in the best position to be effective. Still, I can see it, especially to start the season.

4) No one's brought up the notion of a trade, which is the logical other option that I didn't mention in my original post. Who could go? To where and for what? Of course, depth is never a bad thing, but if Lisin cracks the top 6 and you choose not to demote Anisinov or play him on the fourth line, a player who should be getting top 9 icetime somewhere in the league will be sitting - and potentially fuming (unless injuries resolve the question). Honestly, my preferred candidate would be Kotalik, but given that he was just acquired as an UFA, he may be the least likely (behind Drury).

Anyway, good thread - I'm enjoying everyone's responses.

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08-31-2009, 02:31 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Interesting responses so far (although about half of them are off topic). A couple of thoughts:

1) The Gretzky-Lisin thing is getting silly. No one said that he was going to approach Gretzky's career. It was simply a "style of play" comparison and those of you taking the con position are choosing to interpret it literally to slam the player. Which is funny given that the premise of the thread was "allow yourself to be optimistic for once - what is the ripple effcet on the lineup if Lisin DOES play his way on to the top 2 lines?"

2) To this point in the thread, general consensus seems to be that IF Lisin makes the top 6, Avery is going to the 4th line (albeit there are some variations as to what the configuration of the top 9 would be). I continue to think that this is the most likely alternative. As a couple of you pointed out, it's not like Avery is in a position to complain about anything and we've already seen that Torts has a short leash with him. I can totally see him starting most games on the 4th and then getting more or less time depending on whether or not he's having one of his "benefit" games or one of his "detriment" games that night.

3) The only other alternative that anyone offered would be that Anisimov could start out as the fourth line center. Interesting... Of course that is in direct contradiction to Gordie Clark's statement about him having to play his way out of the third line center spot, but then again that statement was made before Prospal was acquired. There is SOME sense to this, especially if that's how they start the season and then AA has the opportunity to move up as he gets his feet wet. It also allows Avery to stay in the top 9. Having said that, it also means that a) Prospal's getting significant time as a center and b) Anisimov's obviously getting limited ice time - and I come back to my original argument having players in the best position to be effective. Still, I can see it, especially to start the season.

4) No one's brought up the notion of a trade, which is the logical other option that I didn't mention in my original post. Who could go? To where and for what? Of course, depth is never a bad thing, but if Lisin cracks the top 6 and you choose not to demote Anisinov or play him on the fourth line, a player who should be getting top 9 icetime somewhere in the league will be sitting - and potentially fuming (unless injuries resolve the question). Honestly, my preferred candidate would be Kotalik, but given that he was just acquired as an UFA, he may be the least likely (behind Drury).

Anyway, good thread - I'm enjoying everyone's responses.
You deserve credit for starting a good thread.

One point that hasn't been made enough is that teams are going to have injuries. Every year we try anbd figure who the odd man out is going to be. It's probably no one. There will be enough games to go around. And one of the nice things about signing Prospal is that his flexibility to swing into the middle means that 10 (skaters) can go into 9 (positions) easily.

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08-31-2009, 02:42 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
its a fact that his offensive skills are elite...
This why everything else you have written on this topic makes no sense to me.

Until he posts numbers in games it is not a FACT. It is your opinion.

It may turn out to be. Potentially means nothing. Results are all that matters. I'm not saying he won't become great. I'm saying he has done zero to prove that he will be an elite scorer.

By the way, please explain possible reasons why Phoenix traded a possibly elite scorer away. Behavior problems? Are they stupid? Why wasn't every team trying to acquire him? No one offered more than Korpikoski?

What do you think?

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