Whether he's a legit #2 dman i guess depends on your definition on "legit". I thought he played like one last year with us, although he was the de facto #3 behind Scotty and Pronger. Randy Carlyle is effective in getting players to play in a way that maximises their strengths so we are quite optimistic Whitney will reach a healthy point total again next year while improving in his own end still.
He's probably a below average number two or a good number three, whichever way you want to look at it. It will be interesting to see how he plays without Prongers guidance this year.
I think Whitney can be a bigger/tougher version of a Tomas Kabrle (cant spell), except that Whitney has a chance to be a more imposing player since he has much more size and occasionally will drop the gloves. So he has top pairing potential if you think Kabrle is a top pairing dman. I think in terms of what they bring are similar... PP specialist, mobile, good transition game... theyre better defensively when they are doing well offensively and controling the puck.
Kunitz is a first liner, both in his time here and now in PIT playing on Crosby's wing predominately.
Tangradi was the Ducks best forward prospect, and now has become PIT's.
And the Ducks and PHI both traded for a first ballot Hall of Famer, Hart and Norris trophy winner.
Guess again, little man.
Kunitz is consider a 1st line only cuz he plays on a 1st line... That doesn't make him true 1st line material. But with todays salary cap, a guy like him makes a perfect fit as a completery guy on a 1st line.
Kunitz is consider a 1st line only cuz he plays on a 1st line... That doesn't make him true 1st line material. But with todays salary cap, a guy like him makes a perfect fit as a completery guy on a 1st line.
When a guy is paid like a first liner, and has has won the Stanley Cup in two out of the last three years for two different teams playing on the first line, he is a first liner. The proof is in the pudding, not message board hacks' opinions.
You are arguing with Randy Carlyle and Dan Bylsma and Brian Burke and Ray Shero, not me.
When a guy is paid like a first liner, and has has won the Stanley Cup in two out of the last three years for two different teams playing on the first line, he is a first liner. The proof is in the pudding, not message board hacks' opinions.
You are arguing with Randy Carlyle and Dan Bylsma and Brian Burke and Ray Shero, not me.
Wow... just wow... If the Ducks were to win the SC next season, Selanne couldn't be considered 1st line material. Because, he was only on the 2nd line here winning, right?
Kunitz is one of my favorites, and he brings what he brings. People will be happy with him in his 3rd guy role on a 1st line with good linemates, which was the case with McDonald and Selanne... You can't count on him in a more responsible role on a 1st line. Well in Pittsburgh you can probably say he's about as good as Guerin, but then Crosby is Crosby.
Wow... just wow... If the Ducks were to win the SC next season, Selanne couldn't be considered 1st line material. Because, he was only on the 2nd line here winning, right?
Why don't you try and refute my points and stay on subject, rather than bringing up the old "If your aunt had a penis, would she be your uncle?" approach?
When a guy is paid like a first liner, and has has won the Stanley Cup in two out of the last three years for two different teams playing on the first line, he is a first liner. The proof is in the pudding, not message board hacks' opinions.
You are arguing with Randy Carlyle and Dan Bylsma and Brian Burke and Ray Shero, not me.
Hes not gonan be a 1st liner in everyones team though, if we put R2 up wioth getzy and perry and then we win the cup is R2 a first liner? no hell no hes not, kunitz worked well with getzy n perry that was why he was put on the 1st line, as far as pit goes.. have you seen the depth that they have in wingers.. obviously he would be put on the 1st line.. hes in 1b category personally.. not a true 1st line winger but is better than 2nd line material
Why don't you try and refute my points and stay on subject, rather than bringing up the old "If your aunt had a penis, would she be your uncle?" approach?
Or like you: "Carlyle, Bylsma, Burke, Shero has him on the 1st line, don't argue me, argue them, but then they are experts so you can't make an argument against them" approach?
Let me put it like this:
Your arguments for him being 1st line material is...
1. his salary
2. him playing on a 1st line
3. winning the SC twice
let me answer them one by one...
1. Players will be overpayed or underpayed because of earlier performances. In terms of salary, Lupul is 1st line material while Ryan isn't...
2. Yeah, like I said.. He works fine as a completary player on a 1st line with good linemates, which I'm pretty sure is what the 4 mentioned experts also thinks of Kunitz.
3. While Kunitz did what was asked from him, it's not like he was the key factor... Playing on a good team kind of helps, being on the right team at the right time takes some luck. Kunitz was good and contributed to the wins, but he could have been replaced with many names in those vitories, which later made him expandable at the time he was traded.
Kunitz would be a key player to a second line on any team, but he isn't a key player to a 1st line (unless it's on a non playoff team maybe), he doesn't have that kind of skill tbh. So what I'm saying is that, basically any player who can lead a 2nd line, would work fine as a completary player on a 1st line if the chemistry is right. Kunitz had the grit and the speed, along with decent (but only decent) offensive instincts to play his role.
When a guy is paid like a first liner, and has has won the Stanley Cup in two out of the last three years for two different teams playing on the first line, he is a first liner. The proof is in the pudding, not message board hacks' opinions.
You are arguing with Randy Carlyle and Dan Bylsma and Brian Burke and Ray Shero, not me.
, not another one of these posters, you make Ericnut seem enjoyable. If you can't see that Kunitz is a complimentary player, then I don't know what else to say. Dustin Penner isn't a first line player, that doesn't mean he can't contribute on a first line consisting of Getzlaf/Perry. If Bobby Ryan plays on the second line, does that make him a second line player?
IMO, a first line player is a player who is capable of putting up 35+G or 70+ points, while at least having some capability of being an offensive catalyst. Kunitz is a good solution for a team in need of either a complimentary 1st or 2nd line player, which in this cap era is basically every team.
Also, it's not as though Kunitz was even close to a main cog during the playoffs, ever. In fact, he's largely struggled to replicate regular season success during the playoffs.
As for the initial question, Whitney is a solid Defender. #2 or #3, doesn't really effect anything. He will get alot of assists due to his good playmaking ability. He doesn't take a lot of penalties. I think he will be on the 1st Powerplay line with Scotty, so his point total should go up this year.
Just because he is tall, everyone thinks he should play physical. His is more like a Scotty than a Pronger. But for some reason people think because he is big, he should hit like a Mac Truck. Tall people can have skill too. Wiz hits hard and is short. It is just how Whitney plays, but some fans want to stick square pegs in round holes...
Sadly on the Ducks board, his main problem is that he came in for Kunitz. Kuni was one of the most beloved players for the Ducks. If Whitney came in on a trade for someone else or was bought as a Free Agent, you would see many people have a different opinion of him, but some people just can look past that.
Also Kuni has never gotten more than 60 pts a season. Last year he ranked #84 in points for forwards and with playing all 82 games. Bobby Ryan, 4 more points in 3/4 the games. Considering someone a #1 line or #2 line guy again depends purely on the team and the line combos, it has nothing to do with 'skill'. I personally thought the last two years he was not what the Ducks needed and he missed SOOOO many sitters. I am glad he has the success with the Pens and being the 'fast and tough' guy to give space to Crosby seems to fit his playing style. But his skill as a player was hyped up by the love of the fans, cause he is a great guy. It was an even trade in my opinion and we picked up top 25 defenseman for a top 100 forward.
, not another one of these posters, you make Ericnut seem enjoyable. If you can't see that Kunitz is a complimentary player, then I don't know what else to say. Dustin Penner isn't a first line player, that doesn't mean he can't contribute on a first line consisting of Getzlaf/Perry. If Bobby Ryan plays on the second line, does that make him a second line player?
IMO, a first line player is a player who is capable of putting up 35+G or 70+ points, while at least having some capability of being an offensive catalyst. Kunitz is a good solution for a team in need of either a complimentary 1st or 2nd line player, which in this cap era is basically every team.
Also, it's not as though Kunitz was even close to a main cog during the playoffs, ever. In fact, he's largely struggled to replicate regular season success during the playoffs.
This. When evaluating a player's abilities the term "1st line player" commonly does not refer to where a player is actually being used. Kunitz is a perfect example. He's a great complimentary player that is able to feed off great players when playing with them while being able to bring in his gritty element of the game at the same time. For this, he is usable on about any line. I like him a lot and it's great for him that he gets the opportunity to play with Crosby, but that fact does not make him a 1st line player caliber. It didn't make Colby Armstrong a 1st line player and it doesn't make Kunitz one.
So, saying a package of Kunitz + Tangradi should get you a #1 defenseman is pretty ridiculous.
Where do these guys come from? Obviously Kunitz was great and added a lot of "" to the team, but he isn't a "first line player".
This is coming from a guy who was pissed that Kuni got traded for Ryan Whitney (not because it wasn't fair, but I just associated Kunitz with being a Duck).
He is strong, gritty, and fast. The perfect compliment to skilled players. I don't want to reiterate the above, but basically salaries aren't the best indicator of first line talent, him being on the first line (well all I have to say is...try again...), winning the SC twice is great and his style of play is excellent for the playoffs IMO, but there are others like that.
I appreciate the fact that you want to "argue" this out, maybe you'd be good at math, but stupid **** comments laced in your posts just make you seem like a ****** bag that no one would care to argue with.
If you're talking semantics then Kunitz is a first-line player because of the line he happens to play on. But hockey players aren't categorized so distinctly. Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datzyuk primarily play on two different lines but either one of them more of a first or second line player?
If anything forwards are grouped in three ways in my opinion: Top-6, checking/defensive and energy/grinding. If you're two best players play the same position chances are they'll play on separate lines. Thus have TWO scoring lines. Chris Kunitz falls into this category. First-line player is semantical, but top-6 forward is what he is.
As for Whitney he's the #2 D-man on our team if that means anything. He was a big reason we turned our season around and I expect big things from him this season.
Or like you: "Carlyle, Bylsma, Burke, Shero has him on the 1st line, don't argue me, argue them, but then they are experts so you can't make an argument against them" approach?
Let me put it like this:
Your arguments for him being 1st line material is...
1. his salary
2. him playing on a 1st line
3. winning the SC twice
let me answer them one by one...
1. Players will be overpayed or underpayed because of earlier performances. In terms of salary, Lupul is 1st line material while Ryan isn't...
2. Yeah, like I said.. He works fine as a completary player on a 1st line with good linemates, which I'm pretty sure is what the 4 mentioned experts also thinks of Kunitz.
3. While Kunitz did what was asked from him, it's not like he was the key factor... Playing on a good team kind of helps, being on the right team at the right time takes some luck. Kunitz was good and contributed to the wins, but he could have been replaced with many names in those vitories, which later made him expandable at the time he was traded.
Kunitz would be a key player to a second line on any team, but he isn't a key player to a 1st line (unless it's on a non playoff team maybe), he doesn't have that kind of skill tbh. So what I'm saying is that, basically any player who can lead a 2nd line, would work fine as a completary player on a 1st line if the chemistry is right. Kunitz had the grit and the speed, along with decent (but only decent) offensive instincts to play his role.
This whole debate started when I took exception to a responder to my post that claimed Kunitz was a "second-liner", which is clearly not true in the context of his place on either the Ducks or the Penguins. I am arguing that Chris Kunitz is a first liner in that context. Throw out the "first line material" bs.
You jumped into that discussion, claiming that Kunitz is not a first liner. And you are dead wrong in the context.
The Ducks traded their predominate first line left winger along with their top forward prospect, and that is exactly what Ray Shero was expecting to receive in the deal. He was trading for a player to play with Sidney Crosby. Any claim to the contrary is bogus.
Last edited by KeepItDeep: 08-31-2009 at 10:07 PM.
This whole debate started when I took exception to a responder to my post that claimed Kunitz was a "second-liner", which is clearly not true in the context of his place on either the Ducks or the Penguins. I am arguing that Chris Kunitz is a first liner in that context. Throw out the "first line material" bs.
You jumped into that discussion, claiming that Kunitz is not a first liner. And you are dead wrong in the context.
The Ducks traded their predominate first line left winger along with their top forward prospect, and that is exactly what Ray Shero was expecting to receive in the deal. He was trading for a player to play with Sidney Crosby. Any claim to the contrary is bogus.
Pointing out the narrowness of your context doesn't save your assertion from being stupid. We know the context is narrow; that's why it's invalid.
I take back what I said about you being possibly good at math. What a load of ******** you've brought upon us. By your logic (flawed and full of it) Malkin is not a first liner because he doesn't play on the first line in Pittsburgh. That is your logic, argue against it.
Honestly there is no point to what you're saying. Chris Kunitz plays on the first line to complement Crosby. Obviously Spanky was referring to Kuntiz's value (key word) as first line/second line etc. material. If you couldn't discern that from what he wrote, you need a few lessons in context.
, not another one of these posters, you make Ericnut seem enjoyable. If you can't see that Kunitz is a complimentary player, then I don't know what else to say. Dustin Penner isn't a first line player, that doesn't mean he can't contribute on a first line consisting of Getzlaf/Perry. If Bobby Ryan plays on the second line, does that make him a second line player? 
