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What if Lisin surprises?

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Old
08-31-2009, 03:45 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
1) The Gretzky-Lisin thing is getting silly. No one said that he was going to approach Gretzky's career.
I addressed this because the poster said they had similar styles. Their styles, if his description of Lisin is accurate, are in no ways similar. Gretzky was never considered a speedster by anyone.

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08-31-2009, 03:49 PM
  #102
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Lisin has a lot of talent.

But he is not elite.

The only elite forward we have is Gaborik.

We do have some very good players though. And there is no reason in the world why Lisin can't be in that group of Higgins, Drury, Kotalik, Prospal, and Callahan who can score 20 goals.

He needs the ice time. Playing with Anisimov on the third line, he would have an opportunity to show what he's got on a consistent basis.

He skates hard and puts forth effort, so Tortorella might warm up to him pretty quickly.

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08-31-2009, 03:50 PM
  #103
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No one will be Gretzky, ever.

Not Ovechkin and certainly not Phil ****ing Kessel.

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08-31-2009, 04:01 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
No one will be Gretzky, ever.

Not Ovechkin and certainly not Phil ****ing Kessel.
Ovechkin will never be Gretzky (different style) but if Ovechkin doesn't get a career-ending injury, there may also never be another Ovechkin.

He is that good.

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08-31-2009, 04:18 PM
  #105
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This why everything else you have written on this topic makes no sense to me.

Until he posts numbers in games it is not a FACT. It is your opinion.

It may turn out to be. Potentially means nothing. Results are all that matters. I'm not saying he won't become great. I'm saying he has done zero to prove that he will be an elite scorer.

By the way, please explain possible reasons why Phoenix traded a possibly elite scorer away. Behavior problems? Are they stupid? Why wasn't every team trying to acquire him? No one offered more than Korpikoski?

What do you think?
his skills are elite. thats more than just my opinion- its based upon fact since many of those skills are measurable- think combine. from there i am projecting that he has the ability to be special.

again, i have never said its a fact that he will be elite. i said its a fact that he has the skills that elite players have. the only thing that isnt a fact are his heart and his head. those are not measurable. they are more variable and random and thus, cannot be fact.

think zherdev here.

i explained before in this thread why i think he was offered for korpedo. lisin was an extra wing who was considered too "one dimensional" on a team with young players like tikhonov and boedker who were looking for ice time and both of whom have a more developed 2 way game and thus, he was expendable. korikoski is a player who fits that mold of 2 way defensively responsible forward.

it makes sense to me that if gretz and maloney didnt think that lisin fit their "style" of play that they would be attracted to korpikoski who does play a more 2 way game.

and hes a centerman. the yotes have had a logjam at wing and really had no spot for lisin unless they sat someone like mueller who played alot for them.

bottom line is the yotes have quite a few good young wingers who play a more complete game than lisin but lisin on skills alone, may have been the most offensively gifted of all of their young guns.

lisin i wouldnt say has behavioral problems but did refuse an assignment to san antonio which didnt help.

they arent stupid but they arent smart either using lisin on the 4th line.

as to why he wasnt in demand, i can only speculate that slats went to donnie and said we dont have a spot for korpikoski next year you want him ? but we need nhl ready fair value back and donnie offered lisin.

lisin was a fan favorite in phoenix. he was popular and exciting. i dont believe phoenix wanted to move lisin but maloney i think got hosed in the deal and slats took advantage of donnie a little bit and his wanting to prove that kopredo wasnt a reach in the 1st round. complete guess on my part here but not impossible.

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08-31-2009, 04:21 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I addressed this because the poster said they had similar styles. Their styles, if his description of Lisin is accurate, are in no ways similar. Gretzky was never considered a speedster by anyone.
if you are referring to me that is incorrect.

i was making a point about gretzky not playing lisin because of not playing defense and i found that ironic since the great one was never a 2 way player.

thats what i said.

lisin and gretzky are nothing alike other than they both dont/didnt play alot of defense.

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08-31-2009, 04:45 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
if you are referring to me that is incorrect.

i was making a point about gretzky not playing lisin because of not playing defense and i found that ironic since the great one was never a 2 way player.

thats what i said.

lisin and gretzky are nothing alike other than they both dont/didnt play alot of defense.
That's what I meant in my last post as well. "Style" as in "focus on offense and basically ignore defense".

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08-31-2009, 04:52 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
his skills are elite. thats more than just my opinion- its based upon fact since many of those skills are measurable- think combine. from there i am projecting that he has the ability to be special.

again, i have never said its a fact that he will be elite. i said its a fact that he has the skills that elite players have. the only thing that isnt a fact are his heart and his head. those are not measurable. they are more variable and random and thus, cannot be fact.

think zherdev here.

i explained before in this thread why i think he was offered for korpedo. lisin was an extra wing who was considered too "one dimensional" on a team with young players like tikhonov and boedker who were looking for ice time and both of whom have a more developed 2 way game and thus, he was expendable. korikoski is a player who fits that mold of 2 way defensively responsible forward.

it makes sense to me that if gretz and maloney didnt think that lisin fit their "style" of play that they would be attracted to korpikoski who does play a more 2 way game.

and hes a centerman. the yotes have had a logjam at wing and really had no spot for lisin unless they sat someone like mueller who played alot for them.

bottom line is the yotes have quite a few good young wingers who play a more complete game than lisin but lisin on skills alone, may have been the most offensively gifted of all of their young guns.

lisin i wouldnt say has behavioral problems but did refuse an assignment to san antonio which didnt help.

they arent stupid but they arent smart either using lisin on the 4th line.

as to why he wasnt in demand, i can only speculate that slats went to donnie and said we dont have a spot for korpikoski next year you want him ? but we need nhl ready fair value back and donnie offered lisin.

lisin was a fan favorite in phoenix. he was popular and exciting. i dont believe phoenix wanted to move lisin but maloney i think got hosed in the deal and slats took advantage of donnie a little bit and his wanting to prove that kopredo wasnt a reach in the 1st round. complete guess on my part here but not impossible.
If what you have just said is correct, Phoenix is loaded with talent and will be a major force in the NHL, which in turn means that Gretzky is doing a great job, contrary to the conventional wisdom, meaning he is not a moron. Gretzky cannot both be doing a good job and be a moron.

Something in this whole equation doesn't add up but I give up: Lisin is an elite offensive talent. Since every player in the pipeline is also going to be great, for the next 10 years or so, the rest of the NHL will just have to get used to annual parades down Broadway.

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08-31-2009, 05:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
If what you have just said is correct, Phoenix is loaded with talent and will be a major force in the NHL, which in turn means that Gretzky is doing a great job, contrary to the conventional wisdom, meaning he is not a moron. Gretzky cannot both be doing a good job and be a moron.

Something in this whole equation doesn't add up but I give up: Lisin is an elite offensive talent. Since every player in the pipeline is also going to be great, for the next 10 years or so, the rest of the NHL will just have to get used to annual parades down Broadway.
Okay, I get your point, but the converse holds true as well. By your logic, the Rangers must be morons. Because I HAVE watched a LOT of Korpikoski and I'm certain that he's going to be a solid 2-way player for a decade or longer in the NHL. And yet we gave him away for a guy who apparently is so flawed that he'll be playing 2nd tier hockey in Siberia by this time next year.

But again, the point of this thread is what if, just maybe, Lisin surprises you? If that happens, what will be the effect on the lineup?

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08-31-2009, 05:02 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
If what you have just said is correct, Phoenix is loaded with talent and will be a major force in the NHL, which in turn means that Gretzky is doing a great job, contrary to the conventional wisdom, meaning he is not a moron. Gretzky cannot both be doing a good job and be a moron.

Something in this whole equation doesn't add up but I give up: Lisin is an elite offensive talent. Since every player in the pipeline is also going to be great, for the next 10 years or so, the rest of the NHL will just have to get used to annual parades down Broadway.
naw.

the yotes have some very good forwards. shane doan and the ones i mentioned form a decent top 6 but their depth is and always has been an issue.

gretz has been mostly miserable as a coach. they have good young talent because they have been mostly bad and drafting fairly high. not because of wg.

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08-31-2009, 05:40 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Ovechkin will never be Gretzky (different style) but if Ovechkin doesn't get a career-ending injury, there may also never be another Ovechkin.

He is that good.
Yes he is.

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08-31-2009, 06:15 PM
  #112
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This whole bull about being used properly is funny. Great players will shine no matter how they are used. This notion that they can be held back is garbage. Any coach, and I mean every coach, will play the players that produce. No matter what you may think of them, they have an overwhelmingly better and more-informed opinion than the fans.
Yeah but Lisin isn't a "great player".

There is no way he will be a "great player" in camp. It doesn't work like that, its not like someone with potential suddenly wakes up one morning and have fullfilled it.

However, Lisin do have potential, he do have some speed and is very shifty. He is half smart with the puck and can fire it.

If he is gooing to be of any value for us we got to be patient with him though, give him time. He is ready for that.

I like Lisin, and I've seen pretty much of him. Probably 15 full games before he made the NHL even... But what I does not like is if we bring in him just to be a lotteryticket, because as such he will be useless. If we develop him properly for 2-3 years then he will start paying off. Are we prepaired to do that?

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08-31-2009, 06:19 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
What hes saying makes sense.

If i tried to tell everyone on here how to bake a cake and I've never baked one before. I have only seen other cakes... I shouldn't really be saying much, as what ever I have to say is not very noteworthy or correct.
Whenever the topic involves Lisin I put all my faith in whatever Bobbop and FutureGM have to say since I know they have watched him extensively. It's the same thing with Hartford. If Squishy or Jarkko tell me Sanguinetti still can't play defense than in my mind it means Sangs still can't play defense.

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08-31-2009, 06:46 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
naw.

the yotes have some very good forwards. shane doan and the ones i mentioned form a decent top 6 but their depth is and always has been an issue.

gretz has been mostly miserable as a coach. they have good young talent because they have been mostly bad and drafting fairly high. not because of wg.
Too often, fans think they know things that they can't know.

Whether Gretzky is or is not a good GM is difficult to ascertain so far. The guys he has gotten are too young to know his body of work. What we do know is that it will be very difficult for him to be any worse than Sather, who has shown over a very long stretch of time that he is well below ordinary.

Coaching is even more difficult to determine unless the coach is a total moron a la Trottier (Who hired him again?).

It always seems like the teams with the best players win and the teams with the lesser players lose, no matter who is coaching. Give Torts a gifted team and he wins. They are less talented and the results are the polar opposite. Did he become stupid or forget how to coach? Nope. Personnel is at least 90 something per-cent of the equation and it's probably more than that.

Whoever coaches Detroit is going to come up smelling like roses until further notice.

As to the what will happen if Lisin pans out, the only answer we can know for sure is that it will be a good thing. Who will get pushed out is a function of injuries, personality clashes and most importantly production.

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08-31-2009, 06:50 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Yeah but Lisin isn't a "great player".

There is no way he will be a "great player" in camp. It doesn't work like that, its not like someone with potential suddenly wakes up one morning and have fullfilled it.

However, Lisin do have potential, he do have some speed and is very shifty. He is half smart with the puck and can fire it.

If he is gooing to be of any value for us we got to be patient with him though, give him time. He is ready for that.

I like Lisin, and I've seen pretty much of him. Probably 15 full games before he made the NHL even... But what I does not like is if we bring in him just to be a lotteryticket, because as such he will be useless. If we develop him properly for 2-3 years then he will start paying off. Are we prepaired to do that?
Lisin is already 23. Forwards at 23 are not given 2 or 3 years to develop because the chances of them developing after 24 are very, very slim. His timetable is in the present tense or he is toast.

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09-01-2009, 04:27 AM
  #116
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i love how much everybody knows about Lisin. I would be interested to see who's seen him play oh...lets say 10 full games? I stand corrected if anybody has.
I watched 15-20 of his games with PHX last year.

I wanted to add one thing nobody has mentioned yet but he drew a lot of hooking/interference penalties. I don't have any exact stats and maybe it was just a fluke that I watched those games, but I remember in a coulple games alone he drew 2-3 PP's with that blazing speed. I think he caught a lot of dmen off gaurd with those wheels and once he got a step on them, they hauled him down. Just another intangible I think he'll bring along with his offensive potential.

I'm no Rangers homer but I have a feeling he's gonna have a great year for you guys (25-30 goals and lots more highlight reels).

I only hope he gets the chance to succeed in NY.
When some of you "know-it-alls" finally watch him play a few games, I'm sure you'll change your tune.


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09-01-2009, 09:52 AM
  #117
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I only hope he gets the chance to succeed in NY.
This comment always bugs me. Why wouldn't he get a chance? People often complain that so and so didn't get a chance which might be true in a single case but if there is talent there someone else will gladly use these "gems".

Do you believe there are conspiracies against some players?

Do you think that in some cases all coaches are wrong while fans know better?

You in this case doesn't refer solely to this poster.

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09-01-2009, 10:21 AM
  #118
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This comment always bugs me. Why wouldn't he get a chance? People often complain that so and so didn't get a chance which might be true in a single case but if there is talent there someone else will gladly use these "gems".

Do you believe there are conspiracies against some players?

Do you think that in some cases all coaches are wrong while fans know better?

You in this case doesn't refer solely to this poster.
Thats the great equalizer for posters that relentlessly (and in most cases, blindly) lobby for young players and prospects.

When Enver Lisin is wallowing away in the pressbox with a total of 4 goals in January, I promise you that crossbar will be talking about how hes "not being put in a position to succeed" or how he "isnt being used properly."

Truth is, 99.9% of the time, theres a reason that players arent handed top 6 minutes on a silver platter.

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09-01-2009, 11:31 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Thats the great equalizer for posters that relentlessly (and in most cases, blindly) lobby for young players and prospects.

When Enver Lisin is wallowing away in the pressbox with a total of 4 goals in January, I promise you that crossbar will be talking about how hes "not being put in a position to succeed" or how he "isnt being used properly."

Truth is, 99.9% of the time, theres a reason that players arent handed top 6 minutes on a silver platter.
Lisin might end up the real deal but you're right that some folks can never accept that perhaps their appriasal of a player was wrong.

I know I have been wrong on occasion. Well, not really, but I thought I should write that in order to seem more human.

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09-01-2009, 03:15 PM
  #120
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Lisin won't be anything more than a 3rd liner on the team.

If he had the talent to be a #1 wing he would have had enough of a chance to prove his worth on those Coyotes teams. Sure, the Coyotes have had good forwards in Doan, Jokinen, and Mueller but if he had first line talent he would have already been on the first line in Phoenix. Maloney thought Lisin was worth Korpikoski, not more, not less. Does that give you an idea of his potential? He had any more potential Lisin would cost more than Lauri Korpikoski alone.

I agree that Lisin will do better under an up-tempo style, but he won't wow anybody. I'm going to predict that he gets something like 20G/10A or stats around there. Tortorella isn't going to put Lisin on Gaborik's line unless he wants to go all out on one line of speed. He'll be given Prucha's minutes.

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09-01-2009, 03:45 PM
  #121
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If lisin makes the cut, it's not a surprise. Thats the end of the story, hes top 3 most offensively talented players whos going to be trying out for the team. It's that simple. If he try's at all he makes the team.

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09-01-2009, 03:58 PM
  #122
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Lisin won't be anything more than a 3rd liner on the team.

If he had the talent to be a #1 wing he would have had enough of a chance to prove his worth on those Coyotes teams. Sure, the Coyotes have had good forwards in Doan, Jokinen, and Mueller but if he had first line talent he would have already been on the first line in Phoenix. Maloney thought Lisin was worth Korpikoski, not more, not less. Does that give you an idea of his potential? He had any more potential Lisin would cost more than Lauri Korpikoski alone.

I agree that Lisin will do better under an up-tempo style, but he won't wow anybody. I'm going to predict that he gets something like 20G/10A or stats around there. Tortorella isn't going to put Lisin on Gaborik's line unless he wants to go all out on one line of speed. He'll be given Prucha's minutes.
complete silliness.

lisin will be a star on broadway if hes given consistent top 9 minutes. he will be one of our best players 5 on 5 as he can create offense with his speed.

when you have balsawood gaborik as your stud, 30 somethings kotalik and prospal playing alot of minutes, and torts history of giving ice time to those players who earn it, i am not concerned at all that lisin wont get his chance. not at all.

when hes on the ice, he will make a statement. will he lead the team in +/- prolly not but he will make all of you get up outa your chair and say...... wow, that guy is talented.

and all the while, someplace faraway, offdacrossbar will be mouthing .....

i told ya so.

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09-01-2009, 04:08 PM
  #123
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I see Lisin as this year's Zherdev. He'll wow us with the puck at times and frustrate us at other times. The saving grace is that he makes considerably less than Zherdev would have. The talent seems to be there, but we'll have to see if he can put it together enough to give a consistent effort.

I wasn't a big fan of the trade. I hope we don't end up regretting it. Korpikoski is a better player than most people give him credit for. If Lisin ends up being gone after 1 year, then that would be another failed experiment (Zherdev 2.0).

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09-01-2009, 04:15 PM
  #124
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Put Ovechkin in Gretzk's era. It would be interesting to see what happens. Gretzky himself has said the timing and era where he played was perfect for him.

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09-01-2009, 04:19 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by LyNX27 View Post
If lisin makes the cut, it's not a surprise. Thats the end of the story, hes top 3 most offensively talented players whos going to be trying out for the team. It's that simple. If he try's at all he makes the team.
We all agree Lisin will need top 9 minutes if hes going to succeed at all.

Whose he going to unseat out of:

1. Gaborik
2. Dubinsky
3. Callahan
4. Higgins
5. Drury
6. Kotalik
7. Prospal
8. Anisimov
9. Avery

???

Even if he is so offensively talented, hes still a trainwreck in the defensive zone and has a lot of red flags coming out of Phoenix. I fail to see how he will unseat any of the 9 players above without an injury or something wild happening in camp.

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