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Hitting hurts Canada's talent depth

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Old
08-19-2009, 01:50 PM
  #101
MeHateHe
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Originally Posted by NyQuil View Post
I suspect it may go even younger than that.

The emphasis on winning as a team, as early as Pee Wee, is to me a bigger impediment to the development of skilled players than hitting is.
Well, the coaching and development model implemented by Hockey Canada has pushed a lot of coaches toward the concept of teaching skills, and the 1998 summit dealt with that issue as well. I do see a lot more of that at some of the kids' team practices that I watch at rinks.

But Hockey Canada has limited control over Junior B and Junior A and none over the CHL, so development of hockey skills takes a back seat to putting butts in the seats - and that means developing winning teams is the only thing that becomes important. Factor in the number of Junior B, Junior A and major junior teams we have - the dilution of the talent base means an even greater emphasis on systems above skill - and the problem multiplies.

I will be interested in seeing what happens once the players who were starting out when the new rules emphasis came into force start trickling into more competitive hockey and whether that translates into a bump up in terms of the actual skill level.

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08-20-2009, 02:29 PM
  #102
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You're talking Womens hockey. Don't let our boys play Womens hockey! This is the Metro sexual parents pushing no contact hockey. They have already sucked the life out of NHL hockey that's why it's the least watched sport. If you want them to play a no contact sport put them in Tennis or track. Can you imagine if Pop Warner went to tag football?

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08-20-2009, 02:31 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
You're talking Womens hockey. Don't let our boys play Womens hockey! This is the Metro sexual parents pushing no contact hockey. They have already sucked the life out of NHL hockey that's why it's the least watched sport. If you want them to play a no contact sport put them in Tennis or track. Can you imagine if Pop Warner went to tag football?
We should have full contact in hockey school.

And fighting too!

Bleed on 'em! Let 'em know you're there!


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08-20-2009, 04:20 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Can you imagine if Pop Warner went to tag football?
If I'm not mistaken Pop Warner has different classifications based on weight...So u dont see that huge weight disparity u often see in kids hockey. Besides, no one is saying no hitting...just no FULL contact untill circa age 14, just like in Russia...and they dont seem to be doing too badly in terms of skill development.

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08-20-2009, 04:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by bigd View Post
You're talking Womens hockey. Don't let our boys play Womens hockey! This is the Metro sexual parents pushing no contact hockey. They have already sucked the life out of NHL hockey that's why it's the least watched sport. If you want them to play a no contact sport put them in Tennis or track. Can you imagine if Pop Warner went to tag football?
Can't we have an adults-only discussion board?

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08-20-2009, 05:50 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by NHLHammerbound View Post
If I'm not mistaken Pop Warner has different classifications based on weight...So u dont see that huge weight disparity u often see in kids hockey. Besides, no one is saying no hitting...just no FULL contact untill circa age 14, just like in Russia...and they dont seem to be doing too badly in terms of skill development.
The thing is you could have some kids going in to junior that have not been playing contact for long if at all.Then you could have some kids who have been playing contact for 5/6 years so that could lead to someone getting hurt.You could aslo have teams in tournements that have not played contact teams who have.You look at skill level and yes russia is doing good.The system has flaws yes but is it in that bad of a shape major changes are needed i think that could be up for debate.With that said i am not aginst a higher age to have contact hockey but my issues would be both canada and the states would have to agree.So all players would have no real advantage or disadvantage in terms of contact hockey.


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Old
08-20-2009, 07:22 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MeHateHe View Post
Can't we have an adults-only discussion board?
I'm not a kid, I actually have a Grandson playing hockey. My son started playing full contact hockey when he was 7 years old. IMO it's safer to start them that young because they are much more flexable at that age and the weight difference is not that great among 7 year olds. We had some girls in the league that were tougher than some of the boys. When the girls are about ten they start playing with the AAA girls team and totally dominate. The town leagues wait until Pee Wee to start checking and that's when kids start dropping like flies. As far as USA hockey goes, they just want more kids in the game of hockey so they can collect more membership dues. More doesn't always mean better. In most cases it makes it worse by diluting the quality of play throughout the country.

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08-20-2009, 08:43 PM
  #108
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The hitting age does not need to be raised, the level of coaching of hitting and receiving hits need to be raised. From years of watching minors there are as many injuries (or more) from missed hits as their is from hits. If the study was able to differentiate it might show this. The hitting needs to be taught better.

The other problem in rural areas is the ability to get icetime for kids as there are too few rinks for them to practice as the time has to be shared throughout the age groups and the beerleagues. The cost of putting a kid through minor hockey is unrivalled by any sport. This is keeping a lot of talented kids from going the next step as parents cannot always afford either the finances or the time to be travelling to practice every week and then going to games and then tournaments which usually means overnight stays. The cost of the equipment is more than any other sport and then replace a $120 stick every few weeks, yes this is even for the not so skilled players as no parent is going to let little Johnny play with a wooden stick ($20-30) when Billy down the road has the new one ($60-120). So parents are not necessarily enrolling the skilled kids as they get older as it means more travel, time and expense.

As the hitting increases the age levels have increased, the skills have increased and unless you already have the skill levels you are going to be heading to the town leagues and later the beer leagues anyways. This does not mean that you take the sport any less seriously, in Canada the desire is to win at any cost and that style sometimes causes injuries. And you go to any beer league and you are very apt to see a few fisticuffs throughout the year.

Back to point leave the hitting in the game, career longevity has come to players that played in Canada look at Recchi and Gretzky 2 small players physically that have been able to survive that could not have had it not been for the hitting at younger levels and the learning how to receive or avoid at a young age.

All time scorers Jagr#9 (Lemieux), Kurri #19 (Gretzky), Sundin #25, Joe Mullen #59, Mogilny #64, this shows that of all the players coming from other countries to play in the NHL most do not have the stamina or stomach to stay and play the physical grind in the NHL. The top Europeans have been coming for 30+ years, they should lead in all categories.

Listing best players from last year, Parise is American but from a Canadian NHL father(JP). Crosby is the best (ask any GM) with Malkin and OV right up there. Tell me anyone who would take a player over the skills of Getzlaf, Iginla, Thornton Carter Richards or Nash etc next.
Dats and Zetter are pretty good but take them away from the detroit system and see where they go.

You pick your players and I'll stick with my CANADIANS and their skills, drive and determination. My NHL includes hitting and to get there kids have to learn and the younger the better ( as long as they are getting properly educated on this fine art).


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Old
08-22-2009, 11:52 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Back on topic.

Canada produces great depth, but its elite talent doesn’t match its resources, player base or overall popularity of sport.
Given that, unlike any other place on earth, hockey is almost a religion (everyone participates), they should easily be dominating to the extent America does basketball..….but for some reason they cannot. Why is this? Basketball in America is 'inclusive' too.
Oh the Olympics must be on their way. Here come Zine and Siberian cherry-picking stats to prove that Russian hockey is superior. Good to see some things remain steady over the years.

Right now, Russia's top-5 forwards can outscore those of any other country. Congrats. There was a time when the Swedes could claim that (Forsberg, Naslund, Sundin, etc..) and the Americans (Hull, Modano, LaFontaine, etc..), heck even the Slovaks (Palffy, Hossa, Bondra, etc...). Hockey goes in cycles.

But the Russian defence, goaltending and forward depth is definitely middle of the pack so call them co-favourites with Canada to take gold this year (although the Swedes look mighty good, and the Yanks are primed for an upset).

Currently the Russians have finally won a couple of major tournies so their chests are all puffed up. Good for them. Russian hockey is a pleasure to behold.

But the demographic argument? C'mon, really? What about comparing total population to NHL players? (That's one for the Swedes out there!) You can massage stats any way you like. The fact remains that Canada is the one nation that almost always medals at every competition (cue the Turin jokes).

And although it is convenient to ignore junior stats, how can you on the one hand diss Canada's development program and then ignore stuff like. . . ahem. . . cough, cough. . . a 9-2 spanking. . . um, last week?


Last edited by time: 08-23-2009 at 09:26 PM.
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Old
08-22-2009, 03:16 PM
  #110
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I may be mistaken here...but I don't think hitting is introduced into hockey in ontario until kids are 12 or so...but I have younger cousins who live in Alberta and hitting there starts at like 10..

I think it makes sense to start it early, so kids can learn how to take a hit properly and don't hurt themselves, and on the flipside, kids learn to hit right and use respect and not smash from behind. The logic behind the younger is, they have ligther bodies, can't hit as hard, so not as many injuries... so kids get a taste and a feel of contact without as much risk...

Opposed to never having contact, being 14-16 playing people who have played contact and being clueless...most likley getting injured

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Old
08-23-2009, 03:16 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I think that as of right now Canada does not produce enough of elite talent. If you look past Crosby there are no supreme offensive players coming from Canada and it is surprising considering the amount of young players playing hockey in this country.
Come on dude, thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen.
Crosby is on his own level, its nearly impossibly to compare the rest of the players coming out of Canada to him.

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08-25-2009, 12:43 PM
  #112
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Come on dude, thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen.
Crosby is on his own level, its nearly impossibly to compare the rest of the players coming out of Canada to him.
Crosby is on his own level? So is Ovechkin. So is Malkin, so is Zetterberg. What is your point? That Canada has a plenty of top level talent?

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08-26-2009, 04:54 PM
  #113
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Crosby is on his own level? So is Ovechkin. So is Malkin, so is Zetterberg. What is your point? That Canada has a plenty of top level talent?
Do you see Russia producing Malkins and Ovechkins year after year? Or Sweden producing guys like Zetterbeg year after year?
No. Guys like that aren't consistently produced year after year. So it's a little hard for a country like Canada (just because we produce so many players with our 30 mill population) to spit out Crosbys year after year.
And yeah ask anyone else, Canada does have plenty of top level talent, not everyone has to be Crosby to be considered top level talent.

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08-26-2009, 10:12 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by deangamblin View Post
Do you see Russia producing Malkins and Ovechkins year after year? Or Sweden producing guys like Zetterbeg year after year?
No. Guys like that aren't consistently produced year after year. So it's a little hard for a country like Canada (just because we produce so many players with our 30 mill population) to spit out Crosbys year after year.
And yeah ask anyone else, Canada does have plenty of top level talent, not everyone has to be Crosby to be considered top level talent.
This thread is ridiculous, eh?

Last three drafts, first round, out of thirty picks:

2009 - 16 Canadians
2008 - 18
2007 - 16

See, the funny thing is: Canadian hockey has evolved a lot in the last decade. I cannot believe the skill level of kids today. AND, they are usually big and throw a mean bodycheck.

I also love the styles of European players, particularly Russians. I own an authentic Tretiak jersey (Made in Russia!).

On skill alone, Ovechkin is the best player on the planet. A generational talent. He joins a handful of players in that stratosphere, even some Europeans (Hasek, Bure, Selanne, Lidstrom, Forsberg. . . ).

Crosby is there too. Everyone else is merely unbelievably good.

We can't focus on one or two exceptions and proclaim a trend. But measured on sheer numbers of top-end, really friggin good hockey players, I remain a proud Canadian.

And before someone throws out-of-context stats my way, I will remind you that counted in the totals of Canadian hockey players are myself and my teammates.

I am in my forties, about average for the team. And after the game, like tens of thousands of other Canadians across the country (at that very moment), we hang out for a while and have a beer.

You gotta understand, Canadians play hockey until someone pries their stick from their cold, drunken fingers.

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08-28-2009, 12:41 PM
  #115
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Crosby is on his own level? So is Ovechkin. So is Malkin, so is Zetterberg. What is your point? That Canada has a plenty of top level talent?
awfully easy to claim canada has no talented players when you refuse to accept that certain players are talented. If we all accept that Crosby Malkin and Ovechkin are the top 3 players on a level by themselves (which pretty much everyone does) then you have to look at the next level of players and guys like Iginla and Thornton and Nash and Getzlaf and Heatley and on and on and on are definately there in that next level.

Ignoring peoples talent doesn't make you right, only ignorant.

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08-28-2009, 02:22 PM
  #116
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It's gonna be fun to see the Russians smash against the defensive wall from Canada and fall on their butts.

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08-28-2009, 11:22 PM
  #117
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It's gonna be fun to see the Russians smash against the defensive wall from Canada and fall on their butts.
It's gonna be even more fun to watch Ovechkin play bowling on ice utilizing Canada's pylons as bowling pins.

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08-29-2009, 04:29 PM
  #118
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It's gonna be even more fun to watch Ovechkin play bowling on ice utilizing Canada's pylons as bowling pins.
AO will have a great Olympics. . . but, um, last time he played in a gold medal game against Canada, didn't he end up injured and crying on the sidelines?

Just saying.

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08-29-2009, 06:39 PM
  #119
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AO will have a great Olympics. . . but, um, last time he played in a gold medal game against Canada, didn't he end up injured and crying on the sidelines?

Just saying.

There must be something really really wrong with your memory. Last time AO played against Canada in a gold medal game he ended up having the gold medal around his neck.

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08-29-2009, 11:00 PM
  #120
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The Canadian hockey system should take up the lacrosse way. Hitting from Paperweight (3 I think is the youngest age) Knowing how to throw a good hit is better then kids getting their elbows up.

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08-30-2009, 12:25 AM
  #121
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There must be something really really wrong with your memory. Last time AO played against Canada in a gold medal game he ended up having the gold medal around his neck.
My apologies. You're right. 12 points in 9 games, too. I was just poking fun at the thought that he would intimidate the Canadian team.

But you've been arguing something totally opposite anyway. And, as I said above, AO is the most skilled guy on the planet. That's how he's going to terrorize the other teams.

Going to be a great tourney.

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08-30-2009, 12:39 PM
  #122
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My apologies. You're right. 12 points in 9 games, too. I was just poking fun at the thought that he would intimidate the Canadian team.

But you've been arguing something totally opposite anyway. And, as I said above, AO is the most skilled guy on the planet. That's how he's going to terrorize the other teams.

Going to be a great tourney.

Not a big deal. This is just for good fun.

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08-31-2009, 06:32 AM
  #123
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The new NHL rules have definitely helped the European players. The old clutch and grab system is what was taught in NA for many years, so it will take a few years for things to even out again. Also these things are cyclical. The Russians had an incredible year last year, but it wasn't that long ago ('06-'07) that Canada finished with 8 of the top 10 scorers.

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08-31-2009, 02:34 PM
  #124
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Many of the best Canadian-trained players were actually playing contact hockey as the youngest players in their leagues.

I've seen hundreds/thuosands of examples of players jumping up 1,2 or even 3 full age brackets.

The important thing is players can also opt for non-contact hockey in Canada. (as a more recent/innovative direction Hockey Canada has moved)

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09-01-2009, 10:10 AM
  #125
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I spoke with a Canadian parent who had three kids who all play hockey. He basically said that a lot of kids like hockey but do not like hitting at svery young age and that's one of the main reasons they lose interest in the game, so they quit. In Russia hitting at young age basically is not accepted. The coaches want the kids to develop their skating, puck handling. In reality many Russian players see hitting when they start playing international tournaments when they are around 16 years old.

So a couple of things that is a big negative of the hitting-
1. The talented kids drop out before they are discovered by the local scouts.
2. The kids are slowed down in their development of real skills.
so this is why the Russian's killed us at that Jr Super Series?

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