HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Leagues > All other USA Amateur, USHL, NAHL, USNTDP etc.
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Us Ntdp To Join Ushl Fulltime

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-26-2009, 03:50 PM
  #1
amjay13
HFBoards Sponsor
 
amjay13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,642
vCash: 500
Us Ntdp To Join Ushl Fulltime

http://www.ushl.com/news/story.cfm?id=2236

amjay13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-28-2009, 09:04 PM
  #2
TCNorthstars
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Traverse City, MI
Posts: 950
vCash: 500
They can't even win their division in the NAHL. What makes them think they can compete in the USHL?

TCNorthstars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2009, 08:25 PM
  #3
Old Time Sauce
Registered User
 
Old Time Sauce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
They can't even win their division in the NAHL. What makes them think they can compete in the USHL?
completely agree, there gonna have to bring there best puck night in and night out to maybe crack .500

Old Time Sauce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2009, 11:08 AM
  #4
Choate51
Registered User
 
Choate51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Columbus Indiana
Country: United States
Posts: 1,025
vCash: 500
Maybe this will actually help the kids play better hockey for more than 1 or 2 nights. Also I think it might help attendance out throughout the the league when its team USA versus your local USHL team. Now my only question is who does USA replace in the USHL or is there another team coming in.

Choate51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2009, 12:24 AM
  #5
amjay13
HFBoards Sponsor
 
amjay13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 3,642
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choate51 View Post
Maybe this will actually help the kids play better hockey for more than 1 or 2 nights. Also I think it might help attendance out throughout the the league when its team USA versus your local USHL team. Now my only question is who does USA replace in the USHL or is there another team coming in.
I don't think they replace anyone, at least they didn't when they joined the league several years ago. And if I recall correctly, the USA games were some of the least attended games. This move is for USA hockey, not the USHL.

amjay13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2009, 02:03 AM
  #6
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,650
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCNorthstars View Post
They can't even win their division in the NAHL. What makes them think they can compete in the USHL?
I actually think they're doing it for that very reason, to see if they can.

When the NTDP originally started, they left the USHL because they couldn't compete. Now, 10 years later, it's time to see the progress. If none has been made, I'd hope that USA Hockey would re-evaluate the NTDP (either dismantling or restructuring).

William H Bonney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2009, 05:11 PM
  #7
FrancoRussianAlaskan
Liter-a-cola
 
FrancoRussianAlaskan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pensacola, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
I'd rather see a retooling. We've proven the NTDP can work I just think it needs some retooling to improve its progress.


Last edited by FrancoRussianAlaskan: 03-05-2009 at 05:27 PM.
FrancoRussianAlaskan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2009, 01:01 AM
  #8
dafranchz
Registered User
 
dafranchz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,301
vCash: 500
For those who didn't know...Youngstown is going the league next season too. That makes it 14 teams.

dafranchz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2009, 06:28 PM
  #9
Synergy27
Registered User
 
Synergy27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 4,815
vCash: 500
Isn't the USNTDP comprised of the "best" under 18s in the country? Why can't they compete against USHL competition? Is it the age difference? I am asking this question out of pure ignorance, by the way, not trying to spark a debate. I have very little knowledge about the calibre of USHL teams.

Synergy27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2009, 02:43 AM
  #10
EbencoyE
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 1,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
Isn't the USNTDP comprised of the "best" under 18s in the country? Why can't they compete against USHL competition? Is it the age difference? I am asking this question out of pure ignorance, by the way, not trying to spark a debate. I have very little knowledge about the calibre of USHL teams.
i'm surprised if they can't be competitive either... doesn't the USNTDP play top NCAA teams competitively? Why couldn't they easily beat American junior teams?

EbencoyE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2009, 03:56 AM
  #11
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,650
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
i'm surprised if they can't be competitive either... doesn't the USNTDP play top NCAA teams competitively? Why couldn't they easily beat American junior teams?
I think they can be competitive in the USHL but it's going to be tough. The age difference is huge at this age, and the USNTDP teams are the youngest in the league. They may have the natural talent, but that doesn't always equal success. They are usually playing a long season for the first time in their lives, they're not physically as developed in comparison to the older players on other teams, etc.

Also, while the NTDP tries to get the best players in the country at that age, it's hard to project how these kids will turn out. For every Phil Kessel, Cam Fowler, and Jack Johnson that develop and dominate as predicted, you get a Sam Calabrese, Jim Fraser, or Chad Morin who don't pan out anywhere close to as expected. They are stuck with these players that don't pan out and it can really kill the depth of a team, plus the NTDP has been known to ride it's top-flight players, which really goes against the purpose of the program to begin with. This is to say nothing about goaltending, which can be the hardest to predict at this age.

Another thing to note is that the U-18 team does play collegiate teams competitively, but that's in an exhibition format. Now I can't prove this, but I'd suspect that the US players are much more determined and jacked up to compete against a Michigan or North Dakota then they are against a NAHL team or the Div III teams they play. Conversely, it's the opposite for those other teams. The top flight college teams treat it as an exhibition, and the NAHL teams give the NTDP their best every night.

One more note is that it is the U-17 and U-18 teams play regular season games to qualify for the playoffs, but it's the U-17 team that competes in the playoffs for the program since the U-18 team is at the World Championships. During this time, the U-18 sends down whatever players aren't up to par for the team anymore to the U-17 team, and calls up the best younger players for this tournament (see this year: Campbell, Merril, Zucker, Nieto, Clendening) were all called up. It weakens our representative for the playoffs, but strengthens our team for the World Championships.

For our teams to compete in the USHL, we'll need to get better goaltending than our teams have in the past, and we'll need to have strong depth to rely on, which requires better scouting. I also hope being in the USHL will attract better coaches to the USNTDP, but time will tell.

One thing to note is that USA Hockey has missed out on a lot of the top flight recruits for the USNTDP U-17 team this year. Players like McColgan, Ambroz, Jacobs, Hohmann, Trocheck, etc. all turned down the team, which could make this first year a rough one for the NTDP.

William H Bonney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2009, 12:01 PM
  #12
SPORTSMANIAC
Registered User
 
SPORTSMANIAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Lewiston, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to SPORTSMANIAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
i'm surprised if they can't be competitive either... doesn't the USNTDP play top NCAA teams competitively? Why couldn't they easily beat American junior teams?
Usually NCAA teams don't dress their top guys against the Under 18 team. Some say NCAA teams aren't giving it all against them.

SPORTSMANIAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-20-2009, 01:29 AM
  #13
JawandaPuck
Moderator
Lost Art of Dynasty
 
JawandaPuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Vancouver BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,316
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I actually think they're doing it for that very reason, to see if they can.

When the NTDP originally started, they left the USHL because they couldn't compete. Now, 10 years later, it's time to see the progress. If none has been made, I'd hope that USA Hockey would re-evaluate the NTDP (either dismantling or restructuring).

Quote:
Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I think they can be competitive in the USHL but it's going to be tough. The age difference is huge at this age, and the USNTDP teams are the youngest in the league. They may have the natural talent, but that doesn't always equal success. They are usually playing a long season for the first time in their lives, they're not physically as developed in comparison to the older players on other teams, etc.

Also, while the NTDP tries to get the best players in the country at that age, it's hard to project how these kids will turn out. For every Phil Kessel, Cam Fowler, and Jack Johnson that develop and dominate as predicted, you get a Sam Calabrese, Jim Fraser, or Chad Morin who don't pan out anywhere close to as expected. They are stuck with these players that don't pan out and it can really kill the depth of a team, plus the NTDP has been known to ride it's top-flight players, which really goes against the purpose of the program to begin with. This is to say nothing about goaltending, which can be the hardest to predict at this age.

Another thing to note is that the U-18 team does play collegiate teams competitively, but that's in an exhibition format. Now I can't prove this, but I'd suspect that the US players are much more determined and jacked up to compete against a Michigan or North Dakota then they are against a NAHL team or the Div III teams they play. Conversely, it's the opposite for those other teams. The top flight college teams treat it as an exhibition, and the NAHL teams give the NTDP their best every night.

One more note is that it is the U-17 and U-18 teams play regular season games to qualify for the playoffs, but it's the U-17 team that competes in the playoffs for the program since the U-18 team is at the World Championships. During this time, the U-18 sends down whatever players aren't up to par for the team anymore to the U-17 team, and calls up the best younger players for this tournament (see this year: Campbell, Merril, Zucker, Nieto, Clendening) were all called up. It weakens our representative for the playoffs, but strengthens our team for the World Championships.

For our teams to compete in the USHL, we'll need to get better goaltending than our teams have in the past, and we'll need to have strong depth to rely on, which requires better scouting. I also hope being in the USHL will attract better coaches to the USNTDP, but time will tell.

One thing to note is that USA Hockey has missed out on a lot of the top flight recruits for the USNTDP U-17 team this year. Players like McColgan, Ambroz, Jacobs, Hohmann, Trocheck, etc. all turned down the team, which could make this first year a rough one for the NTDP.
Very informative posts. How would you restructure the NTDP? Did the victory at the U18-WJC change your opinions in any way? Why did so many recruits decline the program?

JawandaPuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2009, 12:07 AM
  #14
cupcrazyman
In Shanny We Trust
 
cupcrazyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,537
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synergy27 View Post
Isn't the USNTDP comprised of the "best" under 18s in the country? Why can't they compete against USHL competition? Is it the age difference? I am asking this question out of pure ignorance, by the way, not trying to spark a debate. I have very little knowledge about the calibre of USHL teams.
many high end players have signed with OHL teams from the US NTDP program.

cupcrazyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2009, 12:20 AM
  #15
Semin
.
 
Semin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,948
vCash: 500
I don't really know much about US NTDP or the USHL, but what if they go there and they lose majority of the games, wont the kids just lose there confidence? wont it just hurt there development if they have the mindset of losing every game?

Semin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2009, 05:45 AM
  #16
Rabid Husky
Registered User
 
Rabid Husky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,068
vCash: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by MK7117 View Post
I don't really know much about US NTDP or the USHL, but what if they go there and they lose majority of the games, wont the kids just lose there confidence? wont it just hurt there development if they have the mindset of losing every game?
The U-18 team plays a lot of college teams and loses, it doesn't seem to give them a mindsety of losing. Also the games in the USHL will be split almost equally by the U-18 and the U-17 teams.

Rabid Husky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-30-2009, 10:48 AM
  #17
William H Bonney
Registered User
 
William H Bonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Sierra Nevada
Country: United States
Posts: 19,650
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
Very informative posts. How would you restructure the NTDP? Did the victory at the U18-WJC change your opinions in any way? Why did so many recruits decline the program?
Sorry for the long delay, I never remember seeing your response.

It's tough to say how to restructure the NTDP. It gets into a bigger argument on whether the money spent on the NTDP would better suit American hockey by being spread throughout the USHL/NAHL or just with the NTDP. As with any debate, both sides have valid points. That said, I'll offer some of my ideas of ways the NTDP can change for the better:

1) Devalue the emphasis on winning (either during the season or the Under 18 Championships) and put the focus on development. I know that goes against nature but the point of the program IMO should be player development, not wins and losses. Too many times the NTDP coaches ride their stars while others get minimal minutes to get a meaningless win in an NAHL game. Whether it's Phil Kessel or Pat Kane, they shouldn't be given free reign for the sake of the win. Interest in USA Hockey isn't going to grow because we win NAHL games or the Under-18 tournament, as these events don't make any news outside of USA Hockey circles. Hockey in the US will always be fighting an uphill battle but it will get easier with more top-flight NHL players developed and increased success at the top level (Olympics, World Cup). It's not a coincidence that the two best generations of American players followed both the Miracle on Ice and the 96 World Cup. That resonates.

2) Increase the visibility of the program. It baffles me how little USA Hockey thinks outside the box with the program. I remember when they played an "exhibition" against the Red Wings and how cool that was and how many American hockey fans were probably exposed to the program they had no idea existed. More things like that need to happen. Also, get more American hockey players involved in the program. Guys like Roenick and Chelios would be great mouthpieces for the program if they're involved in some capacity, whether it's as a guest coach, mentor, or whatever.

3) Better coaching/scouting. It would cost more money but it's paramount to increased success. To develop the best, you need to find the best talents and offer them the best coaching you can that is focused on development and not winning.

The victory at the Under-18s didn't really change my mind about anything as we've won this tournament multiple times recently. Again I go back to player development vs. winning. The emphasis on winning at every level is a problem that plagues all American athletics, not just hockey. Winning an Under-18 tournament won't do anything really for USA Hockey. Developing more NHL stars and having increased success at the Men's National Level will.

The NTDP losing out on top prospects isn't new (B.Ryan, R.Schremp, etc) but they did lose out on a ton this year. Part of it is where the guys are coming from. Jacobs and Hohmann are native Texans. McColgan is from California. They didn't grow up with college hockey as the main goal like a kid from Mass or Minnesota would and thus aren't worried about losing their eligibility by choosing major junior. Ambroz chose the USHL last year so he would have to be let go by Omaha and they wouldn't do that with a top talent. Also, with these kids growing up in the internet era they're not as oblivious to the benefits of the CHL and what it has to offer. They're much more aware of all their options and won't necessarily be pushed down the path to the NCAA like most USA Hockey circles will steer them.

All things considered I think losing some of the top-end players can be a positive. If those guys develop into top NHL caliber talents outside of the NTDP, then maybe a guy who wouldn't have gotten the invite to the program or wouldn't have gotten the necessary minutes will develop into that same caliber of talent in their absence.

William H Bonney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2009, 01:50 AM
  #18
james bond
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
I think that it is clear that the NTDP needs to go. That money should be concentrated in other areas such as infastructure whether that be hockey-based rinks, coaching, league coordination or a plan to open youth hockey up to the masses.

Before coming up with a bunch of grand ideas, one needs to find out where all the funding is coming from. US Soccer has a U-17 team in Bradenton, Florida, perhaps funding is only available if such a development path is followed. If anyone can provide a paper trail or at least list where USAH funding is coming from, that could perhaps answer some questions.
I often wonder when choosing players for the NTDP, if some of the selections are from certain areas because of contributions from certain areas.

james bond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2009, 10:01 AM
  #19
FrancoRussianAlaskan
Liter-a-cola
 
FrancoRussianAlaskan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pensacola, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
What's clear is not the fact that it needs to go, but rather the fact that it needs a heavy re-tooling. It has been successful in developing players but it does have some issues.

I'm confused about your statement regarding US Soccer and the U17 team. Are you saying that the USNTDP should be located in one city? It is. That section of the paragraph makes no sense as the rest of the paragraph you're talking about funding and where it comes/came from.

FrancoRussianAlaskan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.