HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Round 2, Vote 6 (2009 update)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
  #126
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 12,133
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I am basing my ranking of Benedict on the fact that he was the best goaltender of his era (ie: in comparison to his contemporaries). So yes, absolutely he is being evaluated against peers, at least in my books, and I'm sure in 70's and HO's as well. You are the one that brought Sawchuk and Plante into the debate if I recall (if you weren't my apologies, I'm starting to get lost in all this Benedict talk).

If you want to make a case that Vezina, Holmes, or Lehman were better, I'm all ears. I have all three in my Top 100 I'm pretty sure, but in my estimation Benedict was their superior, and it's going to take a damn good argument to convince me otherwise.
Wow. How many goalies do you have in your top 100?

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 05:26 PM
  #127
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Wow. How many goalies do you have in your top 100?
Lost my original list, but probably about 20. From what I recall, I probably had Vezina in the 70-80 range and Holmes and Lehman in the 90-100 range.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 05:51 PM
  #128
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 12,133
vCash: 500
From last year's list, 51 on:

51 Pierre Pilote D
52 Vladislav Tretiak G
T-53 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper RW/D
T-53 Francis "King" Clancy D
55 Richard "Dickie" Moore LW
56 Andy Bathgate RW
57 Henri Richard C
58 Tim Horton D
59 Frank Boucher C
60 Walter "Turk" Broda G
61 Earl Seibert D
62 Clint Benedict G
63 Jari Kurri RW

I would have thought once we got this far down the list there would be a little more variation.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 06:40 PM
  #129
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,793
vCash: 500
Top 10 not added yet:

Teeder Kennedy
Nels Stewart
Aurel Joliat
Johnny Bower
Sprague Cleghorn
Busher Jackson
Elmer Lach
Toe Blake
Doug Bentley
Bill Gadsby

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:26 PM
  #130
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Hopefully Ed Belfour's name will be up for voting. I really don't get why he wasn't eligible for voting last year. He won 2 vezinas against strong competition, has a great playoff record and had a very strong regular season career, yet he gets treated like he's a chris pronger or pat lafontaine.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:53 PM
  #131
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 33,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Top 10 not added yet:

Teeder Kennedy
Nels Stewart
Aurel Joliat
Johnny Bower
Sprague Cleghorn
Busher Jackson
Elmer Lach
Toe Blake
Doug Bentley
Bill Gadsby

- Sprague Cleghorn
- Frank Brimsek
- Al McInnis
- Peter Stastny
- Brett Hull
- Johnny Bower
- Aurèle Joliat
- Scott Stevens
- Dave Keon
- Nels Stewart

4 in common. First time I see such a list with a guy not part of my Top-100.
That is... a pretty eclectic group, when you think about it. Biggest similarities are probably Stewart and Stevens, even if they weren't playing the same position.


Last edited by MXD: 09-02-2009 at 07:59 PM.
MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:54 PM
  #132
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Hopefully Ed Belfour's name will be up for voting. I really don't get why he wasn't eligible for voting last year. He won 2 vezinas against strong competition, has a great playoff record and had a very strong regular season career, yet he gets treated like he's a chris pronger or pat lafontaine.
I agree, and I think I had Belfour in the 90s on my submitted list. But why bring him up now? He's no Benedict, Broda, or Durnan, who were the three best goalies in the first 50+ years of hockey.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:55 PM
  #133
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 33,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Hopefully Ed Belfour's name will be up for voting. I really don't get why he wasn't eligible for voting last year. He won 2 vezinas against strong competition, has a great playoff record and had a very strong regular season career, yet he gets treated like he's a chris pronger or pat lafontaine.
I actually ommited Belfour from my list, and IMO, that was a gross oversight. Wouldn't have him Top-100, but should've been there.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:55 PM
  #134
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,970
vCash: 500
Belfour certainly deserves to come up for consideration in a few rounds (I had him at #102), but there's better goalies who should come up before him (i.e. Bower, Parent, Smith).

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:56 PM
  #135
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 33,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I agree, and I think I had Belfour in the 90s on my submitted list. But why bring him up now? He's no Benedict, Broda, or Durnan, who were the three best goalies in the first 50+ years of hockey.
...And he's also not exactly in the tier of Bower and Brimsek.

Should've belonged in my "tier" of Parent, Smith, Worters.

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:58 PM
  #136
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,618
vCash: 500
Two Top 10 not added yet lists and still no Makarov? The guy was just as important to the 80s Soviets as Fetisov.

Since we are doing Top 10s not added a bit early this time:

1. Sergei Makarov
2. Anatoli Firsov
3. Scott Stevens
4. Frank Nighbor
5. Jiri Holocek (though I inexplicably had him a lot higher on my submitted list)
6. Al MacInnis
7. Nels Stewart
8. Sergei Fedorov
9. Ted Kennedy
10. Cy Denneny

Not surprised that I like international stars more than most.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 07:59 PM
  #137
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Belfour certainly deserves to come up for consideration in a few rounds (I had him at #102), but there's better goalies who should come up before him (i.e. Bower, Parent, Smith).
Please, Billy Smith is not better than Ed Belfour. Belfour was elite on every team he played for except san jose. Put Billy smith on a different team and we wouldnt even be talking about him right now.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 08:02 PM
  #138
FissionFire
Registered User
 
FissionFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 11,499
vCash: 500
This is not the time to be debating Billy Smith vs. Ed Belfour, or really discussing Ed Belfour or Billy Smith at all for that matter.

FissionFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 08:04 PM
  #139
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 33,118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Two Top 10 not added yet lists and still no Makarov? The guy was just as important to the 80s Soviets as Fetisov.

Since we are doing Top 10s not added a bit early this time:

1. Sergei Makarov
2. Anatoli Firsov
3. Scott Stevens
4. Frank Nighbor
5. Jiri Holocek (though I inexplicably had him a lot higher on my submitted list)
6. Al MacInnis
7. Nels Stewart
8. Sergei Fedorov
9. Ted Kennedy
10. Cy Denneny

Not surprised that I like international stars more than most.
I don't like the word "international stars", especially considering my version might, and is, actually more diversed than yours (I see no slovaks on your list - mine had no czechs. I see no french canadians on your list - mine had Joliat. I see three russians on yours - but hey, I had one. I see no americans on your list. Mine had one....

MXD is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-02-2009, 08:13 PM
  #140
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I don't like the word "international stars", especially considering my version might, and is, actually more diversed than yours (I see no slovaks on your list - mine had no czechs. I see no french canadians on your list - mine had Joliat. I see three russians on yours - but hey, I had one. I see no americans on your list. Mine had one....
I obviously meant guys who played at a high level internationally, but not in the NHL...

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2009, 04:59 PM
  #141
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,884
vCash: 500
Seems like a few poeple are voting Seibert quite high this round under the reasoning of him having a lot of AST selections. He does of course, but I question some of his competition during those years, especially the 1st teams he picked up duting the war years. As it stands right now, I would have Clancy, Pilote, and likely Clapper ahead of him, and I'm undecided on Horton. I'm open to a case from Seibert supporters to move him up though.

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2009, 05:31 PM
  #142
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,618
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Seems like a few poeple are voting Seibert quite high this round under the reasoning of him having a lot of AST selections. He does of course, but I question some of his competition during those years, especially the 1st teams he picked up duting the war years. As it stands right now, I would have Clancy, Pilote, and likely Clapper ahead of him, and I'm undecided on Horton. I'm open to a case from Seibert supporters to move him up though.
I'm interested in this too. Lack of competition doesn't make someone a worse player (and I definitely voted Lidstrom as high as anyone), but if the main argument for Seibert basically boils down to number of all star teams without more substance, I'm going to have trouble ranking him over Clapper and Horton, let alone up with Clancy or Pilote.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2009, 08:44 PM
  #143
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,793
vCash: 500
Lack of competition, though, does skew awards and all-star nods, which a lot of people put a big emphasis on.

For what it's worth, all five defencemen who are eligible for this round are in my top 10. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I think all five might be positions four through eight. Just a little reasoning for each:

1. Dit Clapper: One of the most incredible careers in the history of the sport. Probably the one guy we'll discuss who could truly do it all: a tough, two-way, goal-scoring right winger, or a rugged all-round defenceman. There has only been one Dit Clapper. There will only be one Dit Clapper. So good at so many things. Six all-star team selections; would have been more if a) all-star teams were around when he started; and b) he wasn't up against Conacher and Cook at RW during his best years.

2. Pierre Pilote: Surprised he's still an option. Three straight Norris trophies (granted, competition wasn't great), eight straight all-star team selections. Tremendous skill level, only the expectations of defencemen held back his production. Tough as nails, too.

3. Tim Horton: Six-time all-star. Cog on four Cup champs. Something to be said about being the backbone of what many consider the best defensive team ever. Doesn't get credit for skill level. Tremendous defensively and probably one of the strongest players ever.

4. King Clancy: There was only one Dit Clapper. And there'll only be one King Clancy. Tiny, ultra-skilled, tough as nails defenceman had no fear. Thought the game at another level and was a very good agitator. One of hockey's all-time great characters and story-teller. Would have had a lot more than four all-star nods if those existed before 31.

5. Earl Seibert: In most rounds, Seibert would be the best defensive defenceman considered. Unfortunately, this round, Tim Horton is an option. Towering defenceman had great mobility and a tough as nails style. Good skill level. Yes, had a couple first-team nods late in his career during war years, but subtract those, and you still have an eight-time all-star who dominated his own zone. Good enough for me.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 12:50 AM
  #144
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Seems like a few poeple are voting Seibert quite high this round under the reasoning of him having a lot of AST selections. He does of course, but I question some of his competition during those years, especially the 1st teams he picked up duting the war years. As it stands right now, I would have Clancy, Pilote, and likely Clapper ahead of him, and I'm undecided on Horton. I'm open to a case from Seibert supporters to move him up though.
Basically, he beat out Clapper for the AST more often than Clapper beat him. When Clapper beat him, he was still a second AST member. When Seibert beat Clapper, Clapper missed the ATD altogether.

I know that's pretty simplistic, but it says something about perceptions of them at the time.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 12:53 AM
  #145
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,612
vCash: 500
All five of these defensemen will be in my top-8 as well, in this order:

Pilote
Horton
Clancy
Seibert
Clapper

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 01:17 AM
  #146
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,618
vCash: 500
I'm not sure if it affects the votes (probably not), but I didn't realize that Dit Clapper was the first player for whom the HOF waived the waiting period for induction. The other nine the HOF did this for are all in our top 30.

Quote:
1947 - Dit Clapper retired on February 12, 1947.
1961 - Maurice "Rocket" Richard retired following the 1960-61 season.
1966 - Ted Lindsay retired in 1965.
1969 - Leonard "Red" Kelly retired in 1967.
1971 - Terry Sawchuk passed away in Summer of '70.
1972 - Jean Beliveau retired in 1972.
1972 - Gordie Howe retired in 1972, came out of retirement in 1973.
1979 - Bobby Orr retired in 1979 due to knee injury.
1997 - Mario Lemieux retired in 1997, came out of retirement in 2000.
1999 - Wayne Gretzky retired in 1999.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 03:43 AM
  #147
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,968
vCash: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Seems like a few poeple are voting Seibert quite high this round under the reasoning of him having a lot of AST selections. He does of course, but I question some of his competition during those years, especially the 1st teams he picked up duting the war years. As it stands right now, I would have Clancy, Pilote, and likely Clapper ahead of him, and I'm undecided on Horton. I'm open to a case from Seibert supporters to move him up though.
All-star team selections on defense:

Season First AST First AST Second AST Second AST
1930-31 King Clancy Eddie Shore Ching Johnson Sylvio Mantha
1931-32 Ching Johnson Eddie Shore King Clancy Sylvio Mantha
1932-33 Ching Johnson Eddie Shore King Clancy Lionel Conacher
1933-34 King Clancy Lionel Conacher Ching Johnson Eddie Shore
1934-35 Earl Seibert Eddie Shore Art Coulter Cy Wentworth
1935-36 Eddie Shore Babe Siebert Ebbie Goodfellow Earl Seibert
1936-37 Ebbie Goodfellow Babe Siebert Lionel Conacher Earl Seibert
1937-38 Eddie Shore Babe Siebert Art Coulter Earl Seibert
1938-39 Dit Clapper Eddie Shore Art Coulter Earl Seibert
1939-40 Dit Clapper Ebbie Goodfellow Art Coulter Earl Seibert
1940-41 Dit Clapper Wally Stanowski Ott Heller Earl Seibert
1941-42 Tom Anderson Earl Seibert Pat Egan Bucko McDonald
1942-43 Earl Seibert Jack Stewart Jack Crawford Flash Hollett
1943-44 Babe Pratt Earl Seibert Butch Bouchard Dit Clapper
    
1953-54 Doug Harvey Red Kelly Bill Gadsby Tim Horton
    
1959-60 Doug Harvey Marcel Pronovost Pierre Pilote Allan Stanley
1960-61 Doug Harvey Marcel Pronovost Pierre Pilote Allan Stanley
1961-62 Doug Harvey Jean-Guy Talbot Carl Brewer Pierre Pilote
1962-63 Carl Brewer Pierre Pilote Tim Horton Moose Vasko
1963-64 Tim Horton Pierre Pilote Jacques Laperriere Moose Vasko
1964-65 Jacques Laperriere Pierre Pilote Carl Brewer Bill Gadsby
1965-66 Jacques Laperriere Pierre Pilote Allan Stanley Pat Stapleton
1966-67 Harry Howell Pierre Pilote Tim Horton Bobby Orr
1967-68 Tim Horton Bobby Orr Jim Neilson J.C. Tremblay
1968-69 Tim Horton Bobby Orr Ted Green Ted Harris

Players not in the HHOF are in italics.

Pilote, Bathgate, Bentley and Clancy at the top of my list this round is the only thing I'm certain about right now.

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 08:02 AM
  #148
lextune
I'm too old for this
 
lextune's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Country: United States
Posts: 9,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm not sure if it affects the votes (probably not), but I didn't realize that Dit Clapper was the first player for whom the HOF waived the waiting period for induction. The other nine the HOF did this for are all in our top 30.
I think that says something quite important actually. The whole idea here is to judge players on how they performed against their contemporaries, and that rarely bestowed honor says exactly how his peers felt about his play.

lextune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 10:33 AM
  #149
FissionFire
Registered User
 
FissionFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 11,499
vCash: 500
Silly me forgot to copy the source info on some of this Siebert stuff but I'll post a few of the things I researched on him for ATD9.....

Seibert had 10 consecutive postseason all-star berths (4 first, 6 second) and was narrowly edged out of a spot in at the start of that run by Eddie Shore when they tied in voting but Shore was given the nod due to LD verses RD breakdowns (Source). To put into perspective the type of extended dominance that represents, consider that only Doug Harvey amongst defenseman can claim this accomplishment and if you include all players only Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard, and Bobby Hull get added to that list. His level of competition wasn't low either with players such as Eddie Shore, King Clancy, Babe Siebert, Ebbie Goodfellow, Red Horner, Hap Day, Ott Heller and Lionel Conacher as just a few notable names in competition.

Seibert can't be intimidated or physically outmatched. His Legends bio states "Seibert was generally regarded as second only to Eddie Shore in terms of skill and rugged play, and Shore once confessed that Seibert was the only man he was afraid to fight. Defensively, Seibert was one of the best shot-blockers in the game, and he could move the puck just as quickly as anyone.". Some call Larry Robinson is a giant at 6'4" and 225lbs so imagine how big a 6'2" 220lb Earl Seibert must have seemed in the 30s and 40s. Joe Pelletier echos the Legends bio calling Seibert "a no-nonsense defender with a reputation as among the toughest in the game." and that "Some old timers insist only Eddie Shore was better.". Earl's defense partner in New York Ching Johnson (no shrinking violet himself) said "Let’s put it this way, no one wanted any part of ‘Si’ in a fight. Even Eddie Shore (Boston) and Red Horner (Toronto) steered clear of him, and Shore and Horner were considered the toughest guys in the League at the time.".

Few people realize that Seibert was also a top offensive talent from the blueline in his time. I'm kicking myself for losing the link but in the board archives there was a table showing the Seibert was actually the 3rd highest scoring defenseman in the 30s and 40s.

- From 1932 to 1945 (ie every full season of Seibert's career) he ranked second in scoring among defensemen, and was 9th in points per game (min 100 gp). He was third in playoff scoring during the same span.

That's just a quick list. I'm still trying to find my old file of Siebert stuff.

FissionFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-04-2009, 10:52 AM
  #150
FissionFire
Registered User
 
FissionFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 11,499
vCash: 500
Here's a few Seibert links.....

EARL SEIBERT: MAYBE THE TOUGHEST OF HIS ERA

"Seibert's hulking presence must have made it easy for fans to spot him on the ice, although he wore a special piece of equipment that made it even easier for them. After suffering a serious concussion in Springfield, he permanently wore a helmet, making him the first NHLer to do so." Source

Earl Seibert

Haunted by the Ghost of Howie Morenz

Berlin blue-liner haunted by Morenz's death

FissionFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2017 All Rights Reserved.