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Old
09-04-2009, 03:39 PM
  #26
NOTENOUGHBREWER
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Here's how it breaks down for me

Hannan: good durable defensive defender, overpaid
Hejduk: good defensively first line winger, upcoming UFA
Tucker: worthless bag of trash. Wait... expensive $2M bag of trash

Nylander: good second line centre, overpaid
Pothier: good but not great, paid quite highly
Clark: upgrade over Tucker, again good but not great
Fleichman: untapped potential, could be a good player

If the Avs were in 10th in the west last year after a rash of injuries and barely missed the playoffs maybe they do this to shake things up.

As it is they are making moves that dont improve the team in the short run and is no guarantee to improve the team in the long run. It's a quality for quantity trade. I'd rather they just signed Hejduk to a new deal.

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Old
09-04-2009, 03:39 PM
  #27
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
In fact, it puts Colorado in a bit of a cap crunch for 2010 and 2011.
How so? I project tens of millions of dollars in cap space for both of those seasons in the rocky state of CO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
Scale it back to just getting Hannan and a Nylander dump: Hannan + Hensick for Nylander + Alzner.
The scale was a necessary complexity allowing certain vets to hit UFA status during the required off-season, with an eye towards Semin + Backstrom re-signing in DC before 2010-11.

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Old
09-04-2009, 03:41 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Goalies can become worthless much faster than other roster players though. If this deal can go through with Neuvirth and a 2nd added in from our side I'd do it in a heartbeat and bank on Varlamov becoming quality starter material. Though preferably they take out Tucker and we take out Clark. We get a guy who'd be our most defensively solid defense man and one of the NHL's best two way wingers on a good contract. And get rid of our salary headaches.

Ovechkin Backstrom Hejduk (possibly best line in the league)
Semin Morrison Knuble
Laich Steckel Bourque
Clark Gordon Bradley

Green Poti
Alzner Hannan
Erskine Jurcina

Varlamov
Theodore

That lineup looks significantly better than our current one.
I agree with you on how goalies can become worthless really quick. But did you ever think that maybe just maybe ( not saying it will happen) think that Neuvirth could be better then Varly? Sure Varly looked great in the playoffs, but what if he ****'* the bed this year? You never know what might happen. That's why I wouldn't trade Neuvirth.

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Old
09-04-2009, 03:55 PM
  #29
thedoctor
                    
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
How so? I project tens of millions of dollars in cap space for both of those seasons in the rocky state of CO.
yes, but there's virtually no one signed either. your deal adds ~7.5m in cap hit in 2010 PLUS the cost of re-signing Fleischmann, whole only taking away Hannan's 4.5m cap hit. We have to re-up a lot of guys that year even without Hejduk -- Wolski, Hensick, Stewart, Quincey, AND fill 10 roster spots. Trust me, with Colorado's internal budget, adding that money in 2010 is a non-starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
The scale was a necessary complexity allowing certain vets to hit UFA status during the required off-season, with an eye towards Semin + Backstrom re-signing in DC before 2010-11.
exactly. it's a salary dump starting in 2010, with an iffy package of youth/role players to sweeten the deal, and the fact that you're making off with the most talent in the deal.

it's a big no from CO the more I look.

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Old
09-04-2009, 03:57 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
Here's how it breaks down for me

...
Nylander: good second line centre, overpaid
haven't seen Nylander lately, hm? he's a bit more than just "overpaid."

It'll take a hefty sweetener to get anyone, let alone a rebuilding team with an internal budget (thanks Stan), to take on Nylander. His level of play was pretty sad last I saw.

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Old
09-04-2009, 03:58 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Jersey Devils View Post
you forgot the
have fun keeping Nylander.

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Old
09-04-2009, 04:14 PM
  #32
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
yes, but there's virtually no one signed either. your deal adds ~7.5m in cap hit in 2010 PLUS the cost of re-signing Fleischmann, whole only taking away Hannan's 4.5m cap hit. We have to re-up a lot of guys that year even without Hejduk -- Wolski, Hensick, Stewart, Quincey, AND fill 10 roster spots. Trust me, with Colorado's internal budget, adding that money in 2010 is a non-starter.
For the sake of accuracy, the deal added $83K in veteran cap hit to 2010-11, and only $1M in payroll for the same season.

Effect on Colorado
 Cap Hit09-1010-11 11-12
Effect+0.083+0.575+1.000 -
Cumulative Salary Effect   +1.575


The re-signing of Fleischmann would in all likelihood be south of $2M. And if Neuvirth is included, well he is already all signed up for two more seasons at $850K per.

So in total, the deal would add ~$3M in cap hits. I don't see how your ~$7.5M is even close. (Perhaps you overlooked Hannan at $4.5 would be coming off CO's books?)

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Old
09-04-2009, 04:21 PM
  #33
Drake1588
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To cobble together a viable trade proposal here, remove Nylander.

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Old
09-04-2009, 04:30 PM
  #34
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
To cobble together a viable trade proposal here, remove Nylander.
Aye aye Captain. But I must say, the legendary seafairing, armada wielding, Sir Francis would have been slightly more ambitious.

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Old
09-04-2009, 05:18 PM
  #35
thedoctor
                    
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
For the sake of accuracy, the deal added $83K in veteran cap hit to 2010-11, and only $1M in payroll for the same season.

Effect on Colorado
 Cap Hit09-1010-11 11-12
Effect+0.083+0.575+1.000 -
Cumulative Salary Effect   +1.575


The re-signing of Fleischmann would in all likelihood be south of $2M. And if Neuvirth is included, well he is already all signed up for two more seasons at $850K per.

So in total, the deal would add ~$3M in cap hits. I don't see how your ~$7.5M is even close. (Perhaps you overlooked Hannan at $4.5 would be coming off CO's books?)
if you read my post again, you'll see I noted you were taking away Hannan's cap hit.

it's adding with everyone included north of 6m to the cap (7.5m cap hit added minus 4.5m for Hannan, plus 2-2.5m for Fleischmann, plus .85m for Neuvirth). It's not as bad in actual salary, but the talent we're adding hardly makes it worthwhile to me.

But it's really not the salary that makes the deal untenable. We'd be giving away the best talent AND taking on the most salary/cap hit AND taking on Nylander and his bucket of suck for just a couple decentish young players and some middling vets. Seriously, it makes zero sense on any front. Where is Colorado winning here -- they're younger? Younger != better.

I'd rather keep/re-sign Hejduk, let Tucker walk after this year, and keep Hannan and trade him at the deadline in 10-11 for a pick/prospect deal.

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Old
09-04-2009, 05:45 PM
  #36
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
It's not as bad in actual salary, but the talent we're adding hardly makes it worthwhile to me. But it's really not the salary that makes the deal untenable. We'd be giving away the best talent AND taking on the most salary/cap hit AND taking on Nylander and his bucket of suck for just a couple decentish young players and some middling vets. Seriously, it makes zero sense on any front. Where is Colorado winning here -- they're younger? Younger != better. I'd rather keep/re-sign Hejduk, let Tucker walk after this year, and keep Hannan and trade him at the deadline in 10-11 for a pick/prospect deal.
Fine, I’m no longer interested in a debating the reasoning. However, your math is still causing me pause. I just don't understand your calculations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
it's adding with everyone included north of 6m to the cap (7.5m cap hit added minus 4.5m for Hannan, plus 2-2.5m for Fleischmann, plus .85m for Neuvirth).
Are you still sticking to the "~$7.5M" figure as the cap hit for 2010-11? Or are you now saying it would be $3 to 3.5M? I'm genuinely interested in learning about the Avs cap strategy. Delineate if required.

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Old
09-04-2009, 06:08 PM
  #37
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The Caps don't need Hejduk with Ovechkin, Semin, and Knuble already on the roster. They don't Tucker in the locker room.

Lets be honest. Hannan is a good player that is overpaid on a team that isnt going to be winning this season as they rebuild. I can see why Colorado would want to trade him. The Caps can only afford him if they move Nylander.

Nylander and Schultz and a prospect or a draft choice for Hannan. All the rest is just too much.

Colorado gets two cheap assets for the rebuild in exchange for taking Nylander and they get Hannan off the books.

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Old
09-04-2009, 06:18 PM
  #38
brs03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
have fun keeping Nylander.
The Caps would let him go to Omsk long before they'd give up Alzner to get rid of him. It's not even close.

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Old
09-04-2009, 06:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by bonzilla View Post
First Huntsy, then Kono, now Clarkie.

I guess if you wear the "C" for the Caps it's going to start to stand for - "Trade me to Colorado"!
So assuming Ovechkin becomes the next captain of the caps hes going to be traded to Colorado?

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Old
09-04-2009, 07:11 PM
  #40
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Colorado gets worse and adds more salary.

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Old
09-04-2009, 11:12 PM
  #41
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caps fan 19 View Post
So assuming Ovechkin becomes the next captain of the caps hes going to be traded to Colorado?
Perhaps.



In about 10 years though, when he's worn out like the other guys were. There's no halting father time -- you can only delay the inevitable with some that there healthy living.

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Old
09-04-2009, 11:47 PM
  #42
thedoctor
                    
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JawandaPuck View Post
Fine, Iím no longer interested in a debating the reasoning. However, your math is still causing me pause. I just don't understand your calculations:

Are you still sticking to the "~$7.5M" figure as the cap hit for 2010-11? Or are you now saying it would be $3 to 3.5M? I'm genuinely interested in learning about the Avs cap strategy. Delineate if required.
in 2010-11:

Nylander @ 4.875 + Clark @ 2.633 = the notorious 7.508m I mentioned.

Minus Hannan @ 4.5m = ~3.5m added

Plus Fleischmann @ ~2m (your guess) + Neuvirth @ .85m = ~6.35m added to the Avs cap in 2010-11.

I never said that it was only adding 7.5m to the cap, I said: "your deal adds ~7.5m in cap hit in 2010 PLUS the cost of re-signing Fleischmann, whole only taking away Hannan's 4.5m cap hit." Do you understand now?

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Old
09-05-2009, 12:41 AM
  #43
JawandaPuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
in 2010-11:

Nylander @ 4.875 + Clark @ 2.633 = the notorious 7.508m I mentioned.

Minus Hannan @ 4.5m = ~3.5m added

Plus Fleischmann @ ~2m (your guess) + Neuvirth @ .85m = ~6.35m added to the Avs cap in 2010-11.

I never said that it was only adding 7.5m to the cap, I said: "your deal adds ~7.5m in cap hit in 2010 PLUS the cost of re-signing Fleischmann, whole only taking away Hannan's 4.5m cap hit." Do you understand now?

~$6.35M, got it, thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
We have to re-up a lot of guys that year even without Hejduk -- Wolski, Hensick, Stewart, Quincey, AND fill 10 roster spots. Trust me, with Colorado's internal budget, adding that money in 2010 is a non-starter.

So, if:
-RFAs Wolski and Quincey are re-signed for $3M & 2M respectively,
-UFA Svatos for what $2M lets say,
-everyone else for $1M or less (not including any other UFAs), and
-the $6.35M from this deal
=that still leaves about $6M in cap space, assuming the cap is $53M, and the team carries 23 players

Still lots a flexibility there for 2010-11.


Last edited by JawandaPuck: 09-05-2009 at 03:00 AM.
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Old
09-05-2009, 01:44 AM
  #44
falconski
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
To cobble together a viable trade proposal here, remove Nylander.
well for actually viable you probably want to remove Hejduk too, he has a NTC at a hometown discount that I'm pretty sure he has no intention of waiving

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Old
09-05-2009, 02:07 AM
  #45
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neuvirth and schultz for hedjuk

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Old
09-05-2009, 02:08 AM
  #46
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well for actually viable you probably want to remove Hejduk too, he has a NTC at a hometown discount that I'm pretty sure he has no intention of waiving
to play on the best team in the history of forever

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Old
09-05-2009, 06:35 AM
  #47
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Hejduk has an NTC and Avs have no interest in adding old guys.

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Old
09-05-2009, 09:02 AM
  #48
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How about this Nylander schultz and a 3rd pick for
Salei

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Old
09-05-2009, 09:09 AM
  #49
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Absolutely brutal for the Avs.

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Old
09-05-2009, 09:34 AM
  #50
txpd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by um View Post
neuvirth and schultz for hedjuk
Caps don't need Hedjuk. Caps dont have salary caps space for that deal either

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