HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-10-2009, 09:34 PM
  #1
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 57,376
vCash: 500
Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=678727

Previous thread.


Last edited by LadyStanley: 09-10-2009 at 10:02 PM. Reason: since there were complaints about title; let's make a little Revelations reference ;-)
LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:40 PM
  #2
MotorMaster
Registered User
 
MotorMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth/cybertron/Char
Posts: 650
vCash: 250
Other peoples interest of moving the team besides JB.

Quote:
Tim Leiweke is President of AEG
Is also Chairman of the NHL Expansion & Relocation Committee
Sits on the NHL Finance Committee

AEG "happens" to have an empty Arena in Kansas City,
AEG Is building one another arena, financed by Gary Bettman's brother, in Las Vegas.

MotorMaster is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:40 PM
  #3
billy blaze
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,480
vCash: 500
so new thread- how do the NHL amend the bid to make it acceptable for Baum as he has indicated he cannot accept it as it is written now, or do they try to force the no sale route?

billy blaze is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:44 PM
  #4
Dugray
No Gifs This Time
 
Dugray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
so new thread- how do the NHL amend the bid to make it acceptable for Baum as he has indicated he cannot accept it as it is written now, or do they try to force the no sale route?
Seeing as Baum's job is to ensure the creditors are taken care of, I highly doubt the no sale route is anything more then him trying to convince Balsille and the NHL to work out a deal so he doesn't have to create a new precedent and have it appealed. Since the NHL's bid doesn't seem to be acceptable as it is, the Judge may have to pick Balsille's bid and let someone else clean up the mess.


Last edited by Dugray: 09-10-2009 at 09:45 PM. Reason: grammar fail
Dugray is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:49 PM
  #5
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 57,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorMaster View Post
Other peoples interest of moving the team besides JB.
That's all speculation based on "ancient" history (of 2+ years ago).

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=675418

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:53 PM
  #6
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 57,376
vCash: 500
From Twitter:
brahmresnik: Coyotes BK: Balsillie exits courthouse, can't find his car, heads back in to make a call. Heads will roll


LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 09:57 PM
  #7
Crazy_Ike
Cookin' with fire.
 
Crazy_Ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,789
vCash: 715
I thought Balsillie traveled everywhere in a horse drawn by eight pegasi surrounded by a thousand singing cherubim...

Crazy_Ike is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:00 PM
  #8
CanadaBacon
 
CanadaBacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
We can be pretty darn certain Balsillie has no interest in teams not in Hamilton.

Apples and oranges. For one thing, none of the people buying those franchises were trying to move it without the league's permission. Remember what the league is really fighting for here, not what the Balsillie propagandists are claiming they are. The power to control where their franchises play and who owns them is paramount to the league.

The league did fight for Winnipeg, for years. It's not like as soon as the owner wanted to sell, the team left the city.

They didn't fight so hard for Quebec, but it seems a decision was made that that market was hopeless, and given the city had no new arena, no prospects, and no owner while being the second smallest market with a pro major league team in North America (ahead of only the special case Green Bay), its hard to argue with the decision.

There is little Bettman could have done to save the North Stars given they moved in 1993. But if we are just talking the league itself, Minnesota was another market with arena troubles. Still, that team never should have moved.

Bettman worked as hard or harder for Edmonton, supported by Cal Nichols' accounts. Is Edmonton one of "Bettman's teams" or is this argument baseless?

You're getting your timelines mixed up. The league doesn't take official offers for relocation while local options still exist. So Balsillie wasn't getting a relocation option. Those "terms" did not yet exist.

If he wanted relocation terms, he needed to wait for the local options be exhausted. Apparently, though, he was willing to pose as a local bidder for his own purposes until it became time to actually sign the agreement


1. How can you be sure? Was he not going to sign an agreement that if the Capri Plan or Plan B happened he would keep the team in Pitts?

2. How exactly did the NHL fight for Winnipeg? The NHL didnt fight at all for Quebec. Saying Quebec was hopeless is just....wow

3. When did Bettman become the commish? Was Minnesota still not in Minnesota?

4. Do you have any Links to the NHL fighting for Edmonton? Not saying your wrong, i just dont know about this topic.

5. Balsille would have known that he could have the option to relocate if there were no local bidders. Who were the local bidders that kept this option open? Once again, with no local bidders, no Capri Plan or Plan B, Balsille could have had the option to relocate the team. He was told to sign an agreement that this would not happen. If no local bidders came about and the Capri/Plan B fell apart, why would he have to sign this agreement?

Were there still local bidder options at this point in time?

CanadaBacon is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:02 PM
  #9
Artyukhin*
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,831
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
From Twitter:
brahmresnik: Coyotes BK: Balsillie exits courthouse, can't find his car, heads back in to make a call. Heads will roll

Ohhhhh my ???what happened

Bettmen relocate it?

Artyukhin* is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:14 PM
  #10
CHRDANHUTCH
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Auburn, Maine
Country: United States
Posts: 15,643
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via MSN to CHRDANHUTCH Send a message via Yahoo to CHRDANHUTCH
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaBacon View Post
Quote:
We can be pretty darn certain Balsillie has no interest in teams not in Hamilton.

Apples and oranges. For one thing, none of the people buying those franchises were trying to move it without the league's permission. Remember what the league is really fighting for here, not what the Balsillie propagandists are claiming they are. The power to control where their franchises play and who owns them is paramount to the league.

The league did fight for Winnipeg, for years. It's not like as soon as the owner wanted to sell, the team left the city.

They didn't fight so hard for Quebec, but it seems a decision was made that that market was hopeless, and given the city had no new arena, no prospects, and no owner while being the second smallest market with a pro major league team in North America (ahead of only the special case Green Bay), its hard to argue with the decision.

There is little Bettman could have done to save the North Stars given they moved in 1993. But if we are just talking the league itself, Minnesota was another market with arena troubles. Still, that team never should have moved.

Bettman worked as hard or harder for Edmonton, supported by Cal Nichols' accounts. Is Edmonton one of "Bettman's teams" or is this argument baseless?

You're getting your timelines mixed up. The league doesn't take official offers for relocation while local options still exist. So Balsillie wasn't getting a relocation option. Those "terms" did not yet exist.

If he wanted relocation terms, he needed to wait for the local options be exhausted. Apparently, though, he was willing to pose as a local bidder for his own purposes until it became time to actually sign the agreement


1. How can you be sure? Was he not going to sign an agreement that if the Capri Plan or Plan B happened he would keep the team in Pitts?

2. How exactly did the NHL fight for Winnipeg? The NHL didnt fight at all for Quebec. Saying Quebec was hopeless is just....wow

3. When did Bettman become the commish? Was Minnesota still not in Minnesota?

4. Do you have any Links to the NHL fighting for Edmonton? Not saying your wrong, i just dont know about this topic.

5. Balsille would have known that he could have the option to relocate if there were no local bidders. Who were the local bidders that kept this option open? Once again, with no local bidders, no Capri Plan or Plan B, Balsille could have had the option to relocate the team. He was told to sign an agreement that this would not happen. If no local bidders came about and the Capri/Plan B fell apart, why would he have to sign this agreement?

Were there still local bidder options at this point in time?
CB:

THEN THE CASINO PLANS in PA (IoC/B) were shot down by Rendell but it eventually led to Mellon being phased out for Consol. Keep in mind Lemieux had scouted KC AS AN OPTION...

as for Quebec, tht's an accurate statement, how come there's been rumored for years arena proposals in Quebec City, but Le Colisee still exists, 22 years after the relocation of the Nordiques to Denver... if there had been another owner locally in QC TO BUY them from Aubut, would there still be 2 franchises in Quebec province?

CHRDANHUTCH is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:18 PM
  #11
cleduc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,801
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
so new thread- how do the NHL amend the bid to make it acceptable for Baum as he has indicated he cannot accept it as it is written now, or do they try to force the no sale route?
It was a semi-technical issue of the NHL leaving Moyes off a creditors list because they regard his claim as equity but the judge hasn't decided that yet. The NHL assured that they will amend their bid tonight. Apparently not a major item for the NHL but significant if they didn't do it because the judge couldn't go forward with their bid legally.

There was one report about the dollars and preferential treatment of others by the NHL over Moyes but I think that related to this non creditor presumption.

I'm a touch fuzzy on the above but that's the gist of what I've gathered.

cleduc is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:20 PM
  #12
Crazy_Ike
Cookin' with fire.
 
Crazy_Ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,789
vCash: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaBacon View Post
1. How can you be sure?
How can we be sure Balsillie wanted to relocate the franchise? Are you serious?

Quote:
2. How exactly did the NHL fight for Winnipeg? The NHL didnt fight at all for Quebec. Saying Quebec was hopeless is just....wow
Ah, so no owner, no arena, and no hope of either for the future isn't hopeless, eh?

Quote:
3. When did Bettman become the commish? Was Minnesota still not in Minnesota?
If you have to ask, you shouldn't be allocating blame. Bettman started in Feb 1993, the rather convoluted North Stars saga started in 1990 and finished in spring 1993. It was another arena situation, the city promised an expansion team when they get a new arena built. It still shouldn't have happened, but the whole Gund/Norm Green mess was ugly in so many different ways.

Quote:
4. Do you have any Links to the NHL fighting for Edmonton? Not saying your wrong, i just dont know about this topic.
No offense but I've had to go through that around two dozen times just since these threads started. I really don't want to go through it again nor is this the proper place for it. Let's just say Cal Nichols has been one of Bettman's biggest supporters ever since he appeared on the scene. If you want more, there's plenty in the earlier threads.

Quote:
5. Balsille would have known that he could have the option to relocate if there were no local bidders. Who were the local bidders that kept this option open? Once again, with no local bidders, no Capri Plan or Plan B, Balsille could have had the option to relocate the team. He was told to sign an agreement that this would not happen. If no local bidders came about and the Capri/Plan B fell apart, why would he have to sign this agreement?
Because the league only wanted local bidders at that time.

Quote:
Were there still local bidder options at this point in time?
Obviously, since the team is still there.

Crazy_Ike is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:34 PM
  #13
Call of the loonie
Registered User
 
Call of the loonie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 1,953
vCash: 500
To anyone following this situation closely -

Why doesn't the NHL just tack an extra 40M onto their bid and get this thing over with? I know it is a lot of money but it would surely give the Judge the escape clause he's been looking for.

Also, 40M might be close to what they end up spending this year if this thing doesn't get resolved soon.

Call of the loonie is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:36 PM
  #14
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 57,376
vCash: 500
Currently the NHL has excluded a handful of creditors (including TGO and the unsubstantiated claim of Moyes). If they fulfill all but those two (completely), they might get a happier Baum. And that might be only another $10m or so.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:40 PM
  #15
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call of the loonie View Post
To anyone following this situation closely -

Why doesn't the NHL just tack an extra 40M onto their bid and get this thing over with? I know it is a lot of money but it would surely give the Judge the escape clause he's been looking for.

Also, 40M might be close to what they end up spending this year if this thing doesn't get resolved soon.
Cause of this:
Quote:
JUdge to NHL: is the worst case really that the bankrupt estate gets is $2 million out of the $140 million NHL says yes that's true
So even if they added $40 million, worse case scenario the estate could still only get $42 million.

MsWoof is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:41 PM
  #16
Macke*
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Vancouver, B.C
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,756
vCash: 500
So happy this ends tomorrow.

and the best part is I won't be sitting around all day waiting for the decision.

Macke* is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:43 PM
  #17
CanadaBacon
 
CanadaBacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
How can we be sure Balsillie wanted to relocate the franchise? Are you serious?



Ah, so no owner, no arena, and no hope of either for the future isn't hopeless, eh?



If you have to ask, you shouldn't be allocating blame. Bettman started in Feb 1993, the rather convoluted North Stars saga started in 1990 and finished in spring 1993. It was another arena situation, the city promised an expansion team when they get a new arena built. It still shouldn't have happened, but the whole Gund/Norm Green mess was ugly in so many different ways.



No offense but I've had to go through that around two dozen times just since these threads started. I really don't want to go through it again nor is this the proper place for it. Let's just say Cal Nichols has been one of Bettman's biggest supporters ever since he appeared on the scene. If you want more, there's plenty in the earlier threads.



Because the league only wanted local bidders at that time.



Obviously, since the team is still there.
1. Once again. He was going to sign an agreement to keep the team in pittsburgh if the Capri/Plan B came about.

2. so the economy had no factor? no help from the government/nhl for Arenas? Why do you consider there to be no hope?

3. I knew when GB became commish, the way you answered made it sound like he was not in office when minny moved. So Minnesota moved after GB came in to office. But he couldnt do nothing about it of course. And it was another arena situation, why was Minnesota not hopeless? Winnipeg was pulling in attendance not much lower then Minny and Quebec was pulling in higher attendance. NHL didnt fight to keep any of these teams in town, They all went to the highest bidder no matter if relocation was in the works and all because of arenas/no hope for the future. Yet Minnesota has a team and are doing quite well. You dont think if the NHL was going to give Winnipeg or Quebec a team an arena would not be built?

4. Was just asking about Edmonton because im not sure what you are talking about, did the NHL help Edmonton before Nichols group owned or during? Are you talking about the CCAP?

5. The didnt get a "local bidder" the Lemieux Group kept the ownership instead of selling because there were no local bidders. And the same group was thinking about relocation and most likely would have been granted it. So there were no local bidders and relocation was being considered, just not for JB.


Last edited by CanadaBacon: 09-10-2009 at 10:50 PM.
CanadaBacon is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:44 PM
  #18
Mike in MN
Registered User
 
Mike in MN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South St Paul
Country: United States
Posts: 168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaBacon View Post
3. When did Bettman become the commish? Was Minnesota still not in Minnesota?
He was either "not quite" the commissioner, or he had Just started when it was announced that the team would be moving after the 92/93 season.

Norm Green sucks.

Mike in MN is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:48 PM
  #19
billy blaze
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,480
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Currently the NHL has excluded a handful of creditors (including TGO and the unsubstantiated claim of Moyes). If they fulfill all but those two (completely), they might get a happier Baum. And that might be only another $10m or so.
so to put it bluntly, the entity in charge of approving bidders, cannot approve themselves as their bid is deficient

billy blaze is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:49 PM
  #20
Naych_PHX
Are you, kidding me?
 
Naych_PHX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: phoenix
Posts: 5,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macke View Post
So happy this ends tomorrow.

and the best part is I won't be sitting around all day waiting for the decision.
It won't end tomorrow. Don't be shocked when this is still going on by the time the season starts.

Naych_PHX is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:54 PM
  #21
Dugray
No Gifs This Time
 
Dugray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Longueuil
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,563
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
That's better. Now we may proceed in earnest!

If the NHL agrees to ante up their offer I really think Baum will take the easy route in this one. As it stands though, there is little going in their favor. The only thing the NHL has to hope for is that Baum isn't willing to create a precedent to avoid appeal. I'm somehow doubting that's first and foremost on his mind when he's got a heaping plate of creditors to try to make happy.

Dugray is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 10:57 PM
  #22
CanadaBacon
 
CanadaBacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,570
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike in MN View Post
He was either "not quite" the commissioner, or he had Just started when it was announced that the team would be moving after the 92/93 season.

Norm Green sucks.
Feb 1 '93 GB becomes commish

June 9 '93 the Northstars relocated

CanadaBacon is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 11:00 PM
  #23
nye
Registered User
 
nye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Siberia
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billy blaze View Post
so to put it bluntly, the entity in charge of approving bidders, cannot approve themselves as their bid is deficient
They could bid $50 MM and tell the secureds to fight among themselves.

There is no law that says anyone has to bid an amount based on liabilities of the bankrupt. They usually bid based on the value (to them) of the asset.

nye is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 11:01 PM
  #24
GSC2k2*
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call of the loonie View Post
To anyone following this situation closely -

Why doesn't the NHL just tack an extra 40M onto their bid and get this thing over with? I know it is a lot of money but it would surely give the Judge the escape clause he's been looking for.

Also, 40M might be close to what they end up spending this year if this thing doesn't get resolved soon.
They would not do so because there are a number of motions currently being argued before the court (all the ones argued today and tomorrow). Those motions MUST be argued and decisions issued thereon before Baum J. can make a final determination. That is required as a procedural matter.

As a tactical matter commercially, there would be no percentage in making such a bid at this time. It invites a counter-bid and provides time to the other bidder to consider their strategy more fully.

I find it interesting that some on here regarded the JB offer to the City as a master stroke of some kind. Most experienced commercial negotiators would find it amateurish to increase one's bid at that time (before the auction), to be frank about it. Even if the City were interested in selling its claim, it would have no incentive to accept it at that time before the scheduled final bidding time on Friday afternoon. Making a bid that early essentially gives away a significant amount of leverage to the City. The City now knows it has a fish on the hook. If JB is prepared to offer $50 mil, there is a fairly high probability that he will offer more (whether it is a lot more or a little more is not really the point).

As a matter of commercial strategy, in bidding situations, the only circumstance in which one makes a bid BEFORE an auction is if one is going to make a truly preemptive bid - in effect, the proverbial bid that one cannot refuse. Unless you are going to get an agreement by making an offer at that early preemptive moment, there is simply no percentage in it. It is a wasted bid.

GSC2k2* is offline  
Old
09-10-2009, 11:02 PM
  #25
TeamTippett
Formally TeamTurris
 
TeamTippett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Phx
Country: United States
Posts: 5,325
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Call of the loonie View Post
To anyone following this situation closely -

Why doesn't the NHL just tack an extra 40M onto their bid and get this thing over with? I know it is a lot of money but it would surely give the Judge the escape clause he's been looking for.

Also, 40M might be close to what they end up spending this year if this thing doesn't get resolved soon.
I think it's clear that both bidders are trying to purchase this asset on the cheap and make a huge profit. (although in the leagues case its offered 100% of the proceeds to creditors so the league wouldn't make a profit, but it does wet the apatite of a JR) The league tacks on $40m then they better hope they get someone willing to pay that freight once this team gets flipped to a new owner. Not sure JR or Ice Edge want to pay $180-$190m for this team, frankly it's not worth that much at this time at this location.

TeamTippett is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.