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The Kessel File-Volume 2 - Phil Wants Out of Beantown

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Old
09-12-2009, 11:42 PM
  #1001
Mr Shanahan
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If what we are hearing about this trade is true, then Burkie isn't the genius I thought he was. Just sign him to the offer sheet.

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09-12-2009, 11:49 PM
  #1002
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Originally Posted by takumi111 View Post
Where are the Kovalchuk and Savard threads?

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Old
09-12-2009, 11:54 PM
  #1003
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The only other line of reasoning I can think of to explain why Burke isn't doing the offer sheet route. Boston may have some leverage because they think they will match any offer sheet and then quickly trade Kessel to another team???

Example:
Toronto gets Kessel to sign a 3 year 5 mill contract.
Boston matches the offer.
Boston trades Kessel right away to another team like the predators or rangers.

Is this even allowed? Can Boston trade Kessel right after they match the offer sheet?

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:14 AM
  #1004
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Originally Posted by Autologic View Post
The only other line of reasoning I can think of to explain why Burke isn't doing the offer sheet route. Boston may have some leverage because they think they will match any offer sheet and then quickly trade Kessel to another team???

Example:
Toronto gets Kessel to sign a 3 year 5 mill contract.
Boston matches the offer.
Boston trades Kessel right away to another team like the predators or rangers.

Is this even allowed? Can Boston trade Kessel right after they match the offer sheet?
nope

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:15 AM
  #1005
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
If the price has gotten this expensive

I think he should go ahead and offer him the max he can for hte limit to give a 1st, 2nd and 3rd and force Boston to match it

If they do, then they are going to lose a good player to make room. If they dont, we keep our 2011 1st rounder.
so you would be happy with burke giving him 6 million a year?

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:17 AM
  #1006
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
nope
I heard 1 yr till he can be moved! Does that mean exactly 365 days or the end of the season??

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:18 AM
  #1007
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Originally Posted by william_adams View Post
two first rounders is too much imo. but what do i know... i think this guy is a goal scorer and a good one at that, but i don't think he's in the upper echelon of game changers. if burke knows/thinks differently then maybe it makes sense...

thing is, we wanted a first rounder back with kaberle for kessel in the first place, now we're willing to give up two first rounders for just kessel?? that equates to kaberle > 2 first round picks. that doesn't make any sense...
i thought boston wanted a first rounder with kaberle?

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:19 AM
  #1008
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I'll be ok with the 2 1st rounders if we can acquire another forward off him. Not Ryder, though. Maybe Kobasew. I've always liked Kobasew's game.

But still, I'm really reluctant to give up the 2 1st rounders.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:23 AM
  #1009
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Made up percentages and odds like "10% chance these picks will turn out as front line players" don't really mean anything though. What you need to realize is the draft isn't a random draw. Your scouting staff and developmental system goes a long way towards improving whatever historical odds are attached to these picks succeeding. And looking at the draft, fantastically talented players have been drafted outside of the top 10. Just look at Boston's core and tell me where each of those guys were picked.

If Kessel is so fantastic, why don't the Bruins value him more and just give him whatever money he wants? I.e. the way everybody else treats their franchise players. And if he's too demanding, do we really want a high maintenance superstar?

Past character and work ethic concerns.
Every club is trying to select the best from the same talent pool. Unless you know that they have assembled the best scouting and development staff, pointing out the value of it makes no sense. Every club tries to assemble a super development team every year. If the Leafs have grabbed the lead great, but if not, their results will probably be just average and not necessarily different from the last few years.

In the last 20 years the Red Wings club has been built around Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and their #1 picks when they have had them, haven't been anything special. I won't debate the value of good drafting because there is no debate, but clubs seems to go on hot or just lucky streaks.
The Flyers got Carter and Richards the same year, and the Ducks got Getzlaf and Perry but those clubs haven't had the same success in other years. So ignore my made up percentages and look at the other players drafted by those clubs. Then figure out how many turned out better than Phil and look at your own percentages. And since you are pointing out the Bruins core has many non first rounders, isn't that an arguement against over rating the value of the 1st round picks?

Phil isn't the Bruin's best player (Chara) or their best forward yet (Savard) or their only young star (Krejci, Wheeler, Lucic) and with all that it is arguable if he is their franchise guy. On top of that they are still bound to the expensive but now unproductive Bergeron so they can't simply throw money at him. I almost think they realized some time ago they wouldn't be able to keep last years club intact and the mess we are seeing right now is something they tried to avoid when they talked trade a few months ago with the Leafs and other clubs. Like the Leafs and Kaberle they had fewer than expected takers, no doubt in part to the quality UFA wingers that were also available.

I don't think he is a guaranteed superstar and I hope others aren't thinking that. In fact I agree that the Bruins, who would know him better than anyone, have made the decision that he is not their franchise guy. He isn't gritty, or talented defensiely, or a great leader, or a really good playmaker. If he was, he would be Mike Richards and the Bs would dump whoever they had to to keep him around.

But he has an excellent chance at scoring 40 goals the next couple of years and they have nobody else who can do that. Havent in years. And he might do more. This isn't a move I think they have to make, especially if his only position is right wing.

His attitude might be just youth, but I wouldn't think they would try to deal for him without getting an understanding of what his issues with the Bs were. Obviously they don't want a Yashin type, and he apparently had interviewed poorly at the combine so they would be looking hard at his character. I will trust BB to understand more from having talked to him than we do from internet rumours.

I am not saying love Kessel or that he will be the star that leads the club for years, but the teams goal is to acquire young guys that can contribute a lot for several years and he is that. Two first round picks might get you two such young guns, but the odds say they will be extremely lucky to get one.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:24 AM
  #1010
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Kessel is definitely NOT worth 2 first rounders, especially ones that may end up both being top-10 picks. The most I would ever give up for Kessel would be a 1st and either a few more picks (not including a second 1st) or a prospect/roster player.

I do think that draft picks are HIGHLY overrated on these boards (what do you expect on a "hockey's future" forum?), but giving up TWO first round picks for Kessel is ludicrous and a huge over-payment IMO.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:29 AM
  #1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post

I am not saying love Kessel or that he will be the star that leads the club for years, but the teams goal is to acquire young guys that can contribute a lot for several years and he is that. Two first round picks might get you two such young guns, but the odds say they will be extremely lucky to get one.
Problem is if you're giving up two firsts you're basically putting your eggs in the Kessel basket as you're limited to drafting outside the first round as well as possibily making other deals.

Also when you draft a guy, there's usually a honeymoon period where the value of the known prospect will exceed the equivalent pick. Moving a guy like Kadri for example carries more value than a 1st round pick. So in that regard it isn't good value to package up these far off picks since the value is low.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:32 AM
  #1012
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Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
Not sure if this is already up, but I like the other scenarios from Toronto Sports Media:

The first you may have seen on the net or twitter tonight, two first round picks and a second for Kessel.
The second is a first round pick plus a top 6 forward on the Maple Leafs who the Bruins are extremely high on and may actually be insisting on in any deal for Kessel, in return the Maple Leafs may actually get a pick back plus Kessel.
The 3rd would involve a mix of prospects and picks in exchange for Kessel.
^
^
This but I highly doubt it is Poni, Stajan, or Blake

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:38 AM
  #1013
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Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
Outside of Gaborik none of those guy's are top line guy's. I think the preds end up getting Kessel,BUT I really hope Burke can pull it off.

If he can't,he should be fired.
What do you mean only Gaborik... Drury was in the little league world series for christ sakes!!

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:44 AM
  #1014
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2 first rounders? I dont know about that. That seems like such a steep price. Considering their is a good chance that the 2010 one could be a top 10.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:50 AM
  #1015
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The Leafs badly need some 1st line talent. Looking at this team going forward, they will have a bunch of 2nd/3rd line forwards. A top 4 defence is already in place and hopefully a combo of Gust/Toskala will do the job in net. Trading those firsts shouldn't hurt too much as long as the cap is taken care of. Can't afford to make bad investments like Finger, Stempniak etc... Next year the Leafs should have enough money to bring in another 1st line talent. So it boils down to how far you think the talent of the team below can go.... (roughly, didn't put time into line formations or figure out the exact cap numbers, just a quick glance of team talent)

Poni Grabs Kessel
5 mill+ FA Kadri Tlusty
Kulemin Hagman Bozak
Blake?? Stajan Orr

Kaberle Komi
Beauch Schenn
White Finger

Gus/Toskala
?????

That would leave Mitchell, Stalberg, Stefanovich still.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:57 AM
  #1016
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New thread needed.

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Old
09-13-2009, 12:59 AM
  #1017
TimeZone
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Originally Posted by SoulOnIce View Post
The Leafs badly need some 1st line talent. Looking at this team going forward, they will have a bunch of 2nd/3rd line forwards. A top 4 defence is already in place and hopefully a combo of Gust/Toskala will do the job in net. Trading those firsts shouldn't hurt too much as long as the cap is taken care of. Can't afford to make bad investments like Finger, Stempniak etc... Next year the Leafs should have enough money to bring in another 1st line talent. So it boils down to how far you think the talent of the team below can go.... (roughly, didn't put time into line formations or figure out the exact cap numbers, just a quick glance of team talent)

Poni Grabs Kessel
5 mill+ FA Kadri Tlusty
Kulemin Hagman Bozak
Blake?? Stajan Orr

Kaberle Komi
Beauch Schenn
White Finger

Gus/Toskala
?????

That would leave Mitchell, Stalberg, Stefanovich still.

Hagman isnt a centre and there isnt a chance in hell Stajan would be our 4th line C. And Yes a new thread is in need.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:09 AM
  #1018
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I think this deal is bigger than just Kessel now. I wouldn't be surprised to see a second player back coming this way from Boston. Not an offensive player mind you, but a prospect or bottom-sixer. Kessel, in my opinion, probably is the type of player worth two 1sts, but with the offer sheet threat there as well this must be a little bigger IMO.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:14 AM
  #1019
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Originally Posted by andymack1986 View Post
I think this deal is bigger than just Kessel now. I wouldn't be surprised to see a second player back coming this way from Boston. Not an offensive player mind you, but a prospect or bottom-sixer. Kessel, in my opinion, probably is the type of player worth two 1sts, but with the offer sheet threat there as well this must be a little bigger IMO.
Kessel is worth giving up a bunch of picks because how young he is. Mind you I am for going after Kessel. However, based on our history of dealing away first rounders and early picks I dont know if I woud pull the trigger on 2 firsts. If Burke does the trade I really hope he can get some of those picks back through the trade route.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:16 AM
  #1020
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Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
Hagman isnt a centre and there isnt a chance in hell Stajan would be our 4th line C. And Yes a new thread is in need.
This and why is Kadri our second line starting center. I am excited about the prospects of the future with Kadri but by no means is he ready for the show IMO.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:35 AM
  #1021
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Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
Hagman isnt a centre and there isnt a chance in hell Stajan would be our 4th line C. And Yes a new thread is in need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!TML97!! View Post
This and why is Kadri our second line starting center. I am excited about the prospects of the future with Kadri but by no means is he ready for the show IMO.
Relax, I said I put no time into figuring out the line formations. Was just trying to show how the team would shape up talent wise in a year after a trade of 2 1st's + a 2nd for Kessel.

Would that team be good enough? Its tough to answer since a lot of the players are young and unproven. Overall, I think thats a solid team. Maybe send Finger to the Marlies and turn that 5 mill fa into a 7 mill or so free agent and the team can have two legit stars on offense to build around.


Last edited by SoulOnIce: 09-13-2009 at 01:45 AM.
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Old
09-13-2009, 01:39 AM
  #1022
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I said I put no time into figuring out the line formations. Was just showing how the team would shape up talent wise in a year after a trade of 2 1st's + a 2nd for Kessel.
oh okay sorry about that.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:39 AM
  #1023
TimeZone
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I said I put no time into figuring out the line formations. Was just showing how the team would shape up talent wise in a year after a trade of 2 1st's + a 2nd for Kessel.
Then what was the point of posting it at all?

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09-13-2009, 01:46 AM
  #1024
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So far the people reading this post want to give me an update on todays happenings with Kessel? all the rumors and stuff in the new thread.

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:47 AM
  #1025
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So far the people reading this post want to give me an update on todays happenings with Kessel? all the rumors and stuff in the new thread.
Rumor has it the leafs have offered two firsts and a second for Phil Kessel.

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