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The Kessel File-Volume 2 - Phil Wants Out of Beantown

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:53 AM
  #1026
joepeps
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i'd do the 2 1st and a 2nd...

the 1st in 2011 is a **** draft... that's like a 2nd round pick

better than trading Stalberg or Tlusty

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Old
09-13-2009, 01:57 AM
  #1027
TimeZone
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Originally Posted by joepeps View Post
i'd do the 2 1st and a 2nd...

the 1st in 2011 is a **** draft... that's like a 2nd round pick

better than trading Stalberg or Tlusty
This is my reasoning as to why I would do it as well. Who knows if that was even offered though.

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09-13-2009, 02:01 AM
  #1028
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Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
Then what was the point of posting it at all?
To show the talent the team could have a year from now. I think there would be more then enough young talent, to survive trading 2 1st's. I just changed players around quickly after using the original formation posted earlier in this topic. Although, now its clear I should have just spent the extra time on working on the line formations, since people weren't gonna read the full post anyway.

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:03 AM
  #1029
TimeZone
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Originally Posted by SoulOnIce View Post
To show the talent the team could have a year from now. I think there would be more then enough young talent, to survive trading 2 1st's. I just changed players around quickly after using the original formation posted earlier in this topic. Although, now its clear I should have just spent the extra time on working on the line formations, since people weren't gonna read the full post anyway.
The lineup you posted wasn't impressive by any means. This is stupid,Im going to bed.

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09-13-2009, 02:08 AM
  #1030
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Originally Posted by !!TML97!! View Post
oh okay sorry about that.
Its cool. I just quickly copied someones template from earlier in the thread and moved some names around. I didn't put much time into it. Overall, it looks like the Leafs would have some good talent. Enough to develop into legit contenders is the big question.

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:10 AM
  #1031
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Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
The lineup you posted wasn't impressive by any means. This is stupid,Im going to bed.
Isn't that how the team would shape up after the rumoured Kessel trade? You posted you were in favor of the trade. They can make other trades after I guess, but if you aren't impressed with the lineup of players I posted, you shouldn't be in favor of a Kessel trade.

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:16 AM
  #1032
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Originally Posted by BIG BLUE View Post
1+2+3 seems fair...

but 1 + 1 + 2 seems too much...

I have such respect for Dave Morrison's abilities, that between those 2 1sts and the 2nd, he'll get a player of Phil's ability OR at least, the 3 combined players in the end will seem much higher value than Kessel...

I still doubt Kessel's intangibles...the personality etc. so I'm not as high on him as most...

I CAN see the other argument though, which is, sure you can score a lot of goals when guys get 15, 20 on your team, but gamebreakers help in the playoffs.

but you know what will happen...

even with the offer sheet...

there will be some Cody Hodgson or Ryan Getzlaf type player selected with our old pick by Boston...

and we'll be debating whether it was worth it...

hehe..oh well...it's Burkey's call...

Kessel is a speed demon who can finish.

we could sure use him in shootouts
I am a huge Kessel fan and don't want to see him leave Boston for two mid-picks and a 2nd rounder. Let me know the last time a Maple Leaf drafted in the first round scored 36+...goes back a bit eh?

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Originally Posted by SteveV View Post
Not sure if this is already up, but I like the other scenarios from Toronto Sports Media:

The first you may have seen on the net or twitter tonight, two first round picks and a second for Kessel.
The second is a first round pick plus a top 6 forward on the Maple Leafs who the Bruins are extremely high on and may actually be insisting on in any deal for Kessel, in return the Maple Leafs may actually get a pick back plus Kessel.
The third would involve a mix of prospects and picks in exchange for Kessel.
Don't know where you are getting this from but that is silly. Boston has too many forwards and you tell me where one of Toronto's 'top six' forwards knocks one of these guys out of the top nine!

Lucic - Savard -Wheeler
Sturm - Bergeron - Recchi
Kobasew - Krejci - Ryder
Bitz - Begin - Thornton

Seriously, no forward on Toronto interests Boston.

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:17 AM
  #1033
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Originally Posted by SoulOnIce View Post
Isn't that how the team would shape up after the rumoured Kessel trade? You posted you were in favor of the trade. They can make other trades after I guess, but if you aren't impressed with the lineup of players I posted, you shouldn't be in favor of a Kessel trade.
Phil Kessel isn't a short-term answer,Kessel is 21 year's old, and an elite talent who has the potential to be a 50 goal scorer one day imo. I don't understand what you're point is here?

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09-13-2009, 02:18 AM
  #1034
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Here is a lineup for next season without moving anyone signed for next year. All UFA's are not included, and Kessel is in at $5.5 million. The RFA's have the same contracts as this year, so it needs a minor adjustment, depending on how well they do. The lines of course are generated by capgeek based on the highest contract 1st. It gives cap-room of about $10 million, minus the RFA raises, needing a back-up goalie and a couple defenceman, and of course doesn't have any affect of the cap lowering. Anyway, I've just posted this to show the cap situation for next year.

Quote:
AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
* Phil Kessel ($5.500m) / Jason Blake ($4.000m) / Tyler Bozak ($3.725m)
Niklas Hagman ($3.000m) / Mikhail Grabovski ($2.900m) / Nazem Kadri ($1.750m)
Nikolai Kulemin ($1.488m) / Colton Orr ($1.000m) / Christian Hanson ($0.925m)
Jiri Tlusty ($0.855m) / Viktor Stalberg ($0.850m) / Rickard Wallin ($0.800m)
John Mitchell ($0.487m)
DEFENSEMEN
Mike Komisarek ($4.500m) / Tomas Kaberle ($4.250m)
Francois Beauchemin ($3.800m) / Jeff Finger ($3.500m)
Luke Schenn ($2.975m)
GOALTENDERS
Jonas Gustavsson ($2.500m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 19; PAYROLL: $50.538m; CAP ROOM: $10.522m BONUSES: $8.435m

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:20 AM
  #1035
TimeZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Parker View Post
I am a huge Kessel fan and don't want to see him leave Boston for two mid-picks and a 2nd rounder. Let me know the last time a Maple Leaf drafted in the first round scored 36+...goes back a bit eh?



Don't know where you are getting this from but that is silly. Boston has too many forwards and you tell me where one of Toronto's 'top six' forwards knocks one of these guys out of the top nine!

Lucic - Savard -Wheeler
Sturm - Bergeron - Recchi
Kobasew - Krejci - Ryder
Bitz - Begin - Thornton

Seriously, no forward on Toronto interests Boston.

Thank you for clearing that up Mr.Chiarelli

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Old
09-13-2009, 02:22 AM
  #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeZone View Post
Thank you for clearing that up Mr.Chiarelli
lol they don't like Tlusty Kulemin Kadri Stalberg or Grabs

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Old
09-13-2009, 07:18 AM
  #1037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
It's always incredible to me how teams like Boston always seem to be able to spin assets into more assets, dumping third string goalies for blue chip goalies, unwanted players for multiple assets. .
.....or consistently losing all their elite talent for peanuts......Thornton, Allison, Samsonov, Kessel, etc.

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Old
09-13-2009, 07:31 AM
  #1038
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Zeke, those examples I gave you were to illustrate the fact that yes, you can acquire elite level talent in the teens. (And the 20s and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th rounds.) I just wanted to remind you that that possibility exists, something you seem to be in denial about.

Phil Kessel isn't the be all and end all of offensive talent.
and my examples were to illustrate the more relevant fact - that the chances of getting a kessel quality player with those mid-round picks are small - very small.


Quote:
The funny thing about the draft is you make your own odds and you aren't assigned random players: you put the energy into scouting to target the right guys and you nurture them to be what they can be. The process is far from fool proof but the fact that some organizations consistently do better than others suggests that we're not talking about blind odds but a process whose odds can be improved upon if you do your homework. And looking at our prospect pool, we've benefited from that a little bit, no? Or should be just package every promising kid up for a slightly more proven asset?
The funnier thing is that there's a whole lotta luck in the draft, regardless of how good your scouting is.

and you need a whole lotta luck to get a kessel-like player with a mid-round pick, no matter how good your scouting is.

each case is different - but make no mistake, Phil Kessel is a more promising young talent than any player in our organization.

Quote:
Well I guess you get what you pay for. Kessel would supposedly be the best offensive talent we've had in years and a real franchise cornerstone, but he's leaving a Bruins team that has a core of Savard, Lucic, Chara, Wideman, Krejci. All drafted OUTSIDE of the first round.
so why are you so worried about moving two mid-first round picks?

heck, we'd have Kessel (#5), Schenn (#5), Kadri (#7), Komisarek (#7), Tlusty (#13)....that's already more high first round talent than most other teams, including Boston.


Quote:
Thornton, Gaborik, Heatley, Spezza, Nash, Horton have all been pretty poor franchise cornerstones whose teams have experienced very little playoff success.
and kessel compares pretty well to all of them at the same age.

Quote:
And Kessel does not compare to Toews at all. Here's the difference: one is the face of the franchise whom you'd never get close to making a move for, the other is plainly available.
well, now here's the debate, eh?

there's no question that Kessel is a comparable talent to Toews. even Kane.

and we might be able to get our hands on that kind of talent for two mid-first round picks, just because of some apparent intangible issues that may or may not be true (remembering that this is the same GM who dumped Joe Thornton for peanuts, so his judgement here should be taken with a grain of salt).


Quote:
At the same age doesn't mean that much, a lot of players are late bloomers, some regress, some develop in a linear fashion.
same age for top-5 picks (i.e. the most NHL-ready prospects in their year) means plenty.

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09-13-2009, 07:34 AM
  #1039
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OK, let's try a different angle.


if the Leafs had drafted Kessel instead of Boston, and the Leafs right now had a 21 year old 36 goal-scoring Kessel.....

....would anyone here trade that 21 year old 36 goal scorer for two mid-first round picks?

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Old
09-13-2009, 07:36 AM
  #1040
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Ha!

Just like we were supposed to parlay Mayers, Hollweg, Van Ryn and the like into picks at the deadline right?
we did parlay Antropov and Moore into 2 2nds and a 4th last year.

this year we have impending free agents Stajan, Poni, VanRyn, Exelby, Stempniak, Mayers, Primeau, Toskala that we can peddle for plenty of picks - and who we can replace with players already in the system.

We also still have a prime veteran asset in Kaberle who we should still be able to parlay into a top-quality young asset in the future.

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Old
09-13-2009, 08:42 AM
  #1041
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
OK, let's try a different angle.


if the Leafs had drafted Kessel instead of Boston, and the Leafs right now had a 21 year old 36 goal-scoring Kessel.....

....would anyone here trade that 21 year old 36 goal scorer for two mid-first round picks?
Nope......By the way Kessel scored 42 goals in total last season (regular season + playoffs).

I doubt Burke would offer two first round picks, but I certainly would straight up for Phil Kessel

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Old
09-13-2009, 09:45 AM
  #1042
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Originally Posted by SoulOnIce View Post
The Leafs badly need some 1st line talent. Looking at this team going forward, they will have a bunch of 2nd/3rd line forwards. A top 4 defence is already in place and hopefully a combo of Gust/Toskala will do the job in net. Trading those firsts shouldn't hurt too much as long as the cap is taken care of. Can't afford to make bad investments like Finger, Stempniak etc... Next year the Leafs should have enough money to bring in another 1st line talent. So it boils down to how far you think the talent of the team below can go.... (roughly, didn't put time into line formations or figure out the exact cap numbers, just a quick glance of team talent)

Poni Grabs Kessel
5 mill+ FA Kadri Tlusty
Kulemin Hagman Bozak
Blake?? Stajan Orr

Kaberle Komi
Beauch Schenn
White Finger

Gus/Toskala
?????

That would leave Mitchell, Stalberg, Stefanovich still.
Hahahaha, So Blake is our 4th line grinder next year, huh? Too funny.

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Old
09-13-2009, 09:57 AM
  #1043
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Originally Posted by joepeps View Post
lol they don't like Tlusty Kulemin Kadri Stalberg or Grabs
lol....Mark Recchi, Chuck Kobasew and 2 other injury prone top 9 forwards and yet they have no interest in good young forwards I guess.

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