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Buffalo/Detroit trade proposal

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Old
11-01-2004, 11:09 AM
  #101
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgy4
When did Dafoe elevate his game? He had 1 fantastic season and has since fallen into obscurity. I think Biron is a fine goalie, but the fact that Buffalo always seems to have someone looking over his shoulder makes me believe that he will never have all the confidence that he needs to take the next step.
Dafoe looked like nothing more than an OK #2 goalie in his early years and then he had that great year later. But, I agree he has fallen off lately.

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11-01-2004, 11:11 AM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I know this thread has been going on for a while, i just thought i'd add my two cents as a Buffalo fan.

Afinogenov: Yes, if given more ice time he'd produce more and yes he could score 30 goals. His upside is Kovalev and his downside in Valeri Bure. However, while he does have some value, I think it is more of an add in.
.
Afinogenov's "downside" (which is the most likely outcome) is as a winger who gets 15 - 20 goals a year, maybe 15 assists, and brings little else to the table. That is basically the player he has been his entire career.

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11-01-2004, 11:44 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Afinogenov's "downside" (which is the most likely outcome) is as a winger who gets 15 - 20 goals a year, maybe 15 assists, and brings little else to the table. That is basically the player he has been his entire career.
01/02---GP:81 G:21 A:19 PTS:40
00/01---GP:78 G:14 A:22 PTS:36
99/00---GP:65 G:16 A:18 PTS:34

So you're saying someone who just turned 25 in September and has already surpassed what you consider his "downside" is destined to have seasons like he had last year (GP:73 G:17 A:14 PTS:31)? His first full season after suffering a concussion? How many games would you say you've seen Maxim play in his career?

He has a much improved attitude towards the game since the injury and it is extremely noticible on the ice. He's no longer a defensive liability. No, he won't be nominated for a Selke anytime soon, but I no longer feel the opponent is on a virtual power player when he's in the game. And for a player that so many people consider "soft", he played physical and even defended himself and Roy a few times which we never saw before.

Like I said in a post above, a full season with Roy (and one of Bartovic, Pyatt, Connolly or Kotalik) and I strongly feel Maxim will be at or near 50 points next season. And he'll also add a needed boost of Energy and excitement as Roy does whenever their line is asked to take the ice.

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11-01-2004, 12:04 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
possibly but impossible to say... you could argue that with that kind of workload his numbers wouldn't look nearly as good either.
Actually, his best season in the NHL was when he played the most games:

GP:72 W:31 L:28 T:10 GAA:2.22 SV%:.915

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
the point is that Biron has proven as much as any 2nd tiered goalie in the league at this point... and with so many such goalies out there, why would teams give up much for him at this point?

Cloutier is no different... he's also making $3mill a year, and has question marks around his game... he isn't going to get much in trade right now either.

and it's also difficult to compare numbers without also factoring in team systems and competition as well... would have to break down all of Biron's games, to see who he has beaten, who he has lost to, and to get an accurate read, would probably have to breakdown game tapes to see what was his fault or what stats were helped by his team or system.....
I agree that his trade value isn't that great. I don't believe I ever argued that he should have a high trade value. Its all about supply and demand. However, I do feel that Biron isn't given the respect that he deserves.

On the Sabres forum there is a split between fans as to who should be "traded", Noronen or Biron, and I did do a game by game breakdown. And I would not have any problem with anyone that wants to do their own research into this because I would still stand behind Biron. He played against loads of playoff contenders down the stretch and played extremely well. And if you want to look at the tape and see how some of those teams scored, even better. I watched every Sabres game last year and besides a few bumps at the begining I was very satisfied with him and would be as the No. 1 for years to come. Especially as he matures. As for comparing systems/teams I think you'll find there weren't many worse than the Sabres having Brian Campbell and Andy Delmore in the same pairing. That alone should put an asterisk next to Biron's (or any Sabres goalie last year) season statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
in the end, he's still a goalie who can't be considered that young or developing anymore, that has - every season - had spells of inconsistency... the fact that he's also had some great stretches helps him, but in the end, taking everything in consideration, he still needs to prove more to be considered picking up right now instead of teams going with what they have, or waiting for something better in free agency.
Again, I won't fight what he would "get" on the open market, but for someone who has still only had 4 seasons in which he played over 41 games I think a great deal of improvement could be forth coming. He has never had a season in which his SV% was lower than .908 and that was 02/03. The year the team was Bankrupt and had its worst turn out of fans and in the standings in its history. I think we can forgive him for that. His career SV% of .911 isn't Vezina material but of a playoff caliber and easily a No. 1 goalie.

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11-01-2004, 06:07 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
I know this thread has been going on for a while, i just thought i'd add my two cents as a Buffalo fan.

Afinogenov: Yes, if given more ice time he'd produce more and yes he could score 30 goals. His upside is Kovalev and his downside in Valeri Bure. However, while he does have some value, I think it is more of an add in.

Noronen: A solid if not underrated young goalie, from what I have seen of Miller and Biron, my guess is that when all is said and done, he will be Buffalo's starter.

Biron: One word: Inconsistent. Prone to let in softies at the wrong time, also prone to incredible hot streaks. If he can ever be more consistent, he'd be an annual Veznia winner. A starter for sure, but will almost always be a 2nd tier goalie.

Datsyuk- Still adjusting to NHL game and long season. Upside is Fedorov while his downside is a strong #2/#1a center (which he is already)
Good post, I agree

Obviously, we {buffalo} get the better deal right now, but too many ignorant people here are under rating Max, Noronen, and the Sabres as a team in some cases.

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11-01-2004, 10:52 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
01/02---GP:81 G:21 A:19 PTS:40
00/01---GP:78 G:14 A:22 PTS:36
99/00---GP:65 G:16 A:18 PTS:34

So you're saying someone who just turned 25 in September and has already surpassed what you consider his "downside" is destined to have seasons like he had last year (GP:73 G:17 A:14 PTS:31)? His first full season after suffering a concussion? How many games would you say you've seen Maxim play in his career?

He has a much improved attitude towards the game since the injury and it is extremely noticible on the ice. He's no longer a defensive liability. No, he won't be nominated for a Selke anytime soon, but I no longer feel the opponent is on a virtual power player when he's in the game. And for a player that so many people consider "soft", he played physical and even defended himself and Roy a few times which we never saw before.

Like I said in a post above, a full season with Roy (and one of Bartovic, Pyatt, Connolly or Kotalik) and I strongly feel Maxim will be at or near 50 points next season. And he'll also add a needed boost of Energy and excitement as Roy does whenever their line is asked to take the ice.
He didn't surpass my "downside." He has basically been a 15 - 20 goal guy for most of his career, which is exactly what I said. And, he hasn't shown any hint of being better than that. I understand that you strongly think Maxim will hit 50. I strongly think he'll be lucky to get 40. And, I also strongly think he'll be a lot close to 30. I personally would not be shocked if he hit 20 goals, but doubt he has the playmaking abilities or vision to ever get much more than 15 assists. I'd say that 20 goals and 35 points is his likely topside next time there is a full season in the NHL.

This is a player who is about to hit his 6th season in the NHL, and he has never shown one hint of being the 30 goal scorer you guys keep making him out to be. Not even close, as a matter of fact.


Last edited by Darth Milbury: 11-01-2004 at 11:54 PM.
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11-02-2004, 08:48 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
He didn't surpass my "downside." He has basically been a 15 - 20 goal guy for most of his career, which is exactly what I said. And, he hasn't shown any hint of being better than that. I understand that you strongly think Maxim will hit 50. I strongly think he'll be lucky to get 40. And, I also strongly think he'll be a lot close to 30. I personally would not be shocked if he hit 20 goals, but doubt he has the playmaking abilities or vision to ever get much more than 15 assists. I'd say that 20 goals and 35 points is his likely topside next time there is a full season in the NHL.

This is a player who is about to hit his 6th season in the NHL, and he has never shown one hint of being the 30 goal scorer you guys keep making him out to be. Not even close, as a matter of fact.
He's surpassed 20 goals. You said "doubt he has the playmaking abilities or vision to ever get much more than 15 assists". He's already had three seasons of more than 15 assists. Last year he had 14 assists in only 73 games. And he had 17 goals in only 73 games as well. His first season returning from a severe concussion. His first season he had 16 goals in only 65 games, and 18 assists that season.

And Obviously you have not seen the difference in the way he played before and now plays after the injury. They are two totally different people. And as I said he basically accomplished what you think is his "topside" last year with almost half his games with a career AHLer and a 3rd/4th line defensive player. And how can you judge him at 25 for what he could do when he is still playing on the team's third line. And as I've discussed before, there is not much more he could do to change that. If Satan was traded and Maxim was moved to the first line, you can bet 50 would be easy and 60 would be a good possibility. I am speaking from a perspective of seeing nearly every game he has played, as well as using statistical and Sabre's organizational facts to back up my opinion. What do you have but you're own uninformed thought? You have given nothing to prove your point. Your comments prove you have not seen him play very often, if at all, and especially not much recently and no statistics you can find would be able to back you up.

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11-02-2004, 11:07 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
He's surpassed 20 goals. You said "doubt he has the playmaking abilities or vision to ever get much more than 15 assists". He's already had three seasons of more than 15 assists. Last year he had 14 assists in only 73 games. And he had 17 goals in only 73 games as well. His first season returning from a severe concussion. His first season he had 16 goals in only 65 games, and 18 assists that season.

And Obviously you have not seen the difference in the way he played before and now plays after the injury. They are two totally different people. And as I said he basically accomplished what you think is his "topside" last year with almost half his games with a career AHLer and a 3rd/4th line defensive player. And how can you judge him at 25 for what he could do when he is still playing on the team's third line. And as I've discussed before, there is not much more he could do to change that. If Satan was traded and Maxim was moved to the first line, you can bet 50 would be easy and 60 would be a good possibility. I am speaking from a perspective of seeing nearly every game he has played, as well as using statistical and Sabre's organizational facts to back up my opinion. What do you have but you're own uninformed thought? You have given nothing to prove your point. Your comments prove you have not seen him play very often, if at all, and especially not much recently and no statistics you can find would be able to back you up.
Read much?

Here is what I wrote (cut directly from my earlier post):

Afinogenov's "downside" (which is the most likely outcome) is as a winger who gets 15 - 20 goals a year, maybe 15 assists, and brings little else to the table. That is basically the player he has been his entire career.


Afinogenov is exactly what I said he is - a player who gets about 15 - 20 goals a year and about 15 assists. I did not say he would never exceed those totals ever in a single season (which, btw, he managed to do by a grand total of one goal). Stop distorting what I said in order to make your point. Over the course of his career, he has basically done exactly what I said he would do. The real statistic here is what he has actually scored - your personal impressions do not equal "statistics."

What you are giving us here is the battle cry of the homer. "if you don't agree with me that a player from my team is much better than his numbers would suggest - you must not have seen him play"

I know you are a fairly informed poster, and I generally respect your opinion. But, you are being ridiculously biased here. If we don't agree with you that this 15 - 20 goal guy is suddenly going to sprout wings and become a 30 goal 60 point man then we have not watched him play, eh? I'm willing to bet you'll be eating those words next summer.

I've heard the exact same argument made about dozens of players. And, in fact, I've seen you personally make that arguement about guys like Dumont, and Kotalik. 95% of the time, what you see, is what you get.

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11-02-2004, 11:38 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Read much?

Here is what I wrote (cut directly from my earlier post):

Afinogenov's "downside" (which is the most likely outcome) is as a winger who gets 15 - 20 goals a year, maybe 15 assists, and brings little else to the table. That is basically the player he has been his entire career.


Afinogenov is exactly what I said he is - a player who gets about 15 - 20 goals a year and about 15 assists. I did not say he would never exceed those totals ever in a single season (which, btw, he managed to do by a grand total of one goal). Stop distorting what I said in order to make your point. Over the course of his career, he has basically done exactly what I said he would do. The real statistic here is what he has actually scored - your personal impressions do not equal "statistics."

What you are giving us here is the battle cry of the homer. "if you don't agree with me that a player from my team is much better than his numbers would suggest - you must not have seen him play"

I know you are a fairly informed poster, and I generally respect your opinion. But, you are being ridiculously biased here. If we don't agree with you that this 15 - 20 goal guy is suddenly going to sprout wings and become a 30 goal 60 point man then we have not watched him play, eh? I'm willing to bet you'll be eating those words next summer.

I've heard the exact same argument made about dozens of players. And, in fact, I've seen you personally make that arguement about guys like Dumont, and Kotalik. 95% of the time, what you see, is what you get.
Well first and for most here is also exactly what you said.

"doubt he has the playmaking abilities or vision to ever get much more than 15 assists".

See the "ever" in bold. 18 assists in his first season that was only 65 games long proves that he can get well more than 15 assists in a season. There is no "distortion" there. A season in which he had 22 assists also says that he can be well above 15 for a season. I'm not talking about 2 or even 3 above that mark. And even you admit he can score 20 goals in a season would give him at least 40 points. And all of this done with third line minutes and usually third line defensive line mates. Which you would know if you actually saw him play regularly. But I guess the FACT that he played half of the season or even most of his career so far with AHL talent or defensive linemates with 3rd line minutes is just me being a homer.

I guess I'll just fess up, I guess since Afinogenov wasn't a 30 goal scorer while getting time with superstars like Botterill, Chris Taylor, Curtis Brown, Milan Bartovic, etc... that he'll never amount to anything. Sorry for having wasted your time. He should have been a 50 point guy by just being on the ice with those guys regardless of his ice time.

Look I'm not ready to claim he's the second coming, but to expect this guy to only get 30-35 points is absurd. If injuries to linemates or other issues come up the least he would do is that, but if he has a whole season with Roy and a more offensive third linemate then Botterill and Bartovic for the whole season then I think it isn't a stretch for him to put up at least 45 or more points on the third line. That's a great number for a player on the 3rd line. At no point did I say he's been snuffed for the AllStar team or anything, only that he is not getting the respect he deserves, but unless you have seen him play then what do you have to base your opinion on? If two people were talking about one of your team's players would you rather listen to the guy that has seen him play everygame, or someone that has seen very few or none at all?

As for Dumont and Kotalik I seriosly think you have me confused with someone else. If you have actually been paying attention to what I post on the Sabres Boards I've been asking to have Kotalik traded for the longest time. Granted at the begining I may have been "dazzled" by his shot, but having watched him for an extended period of time I have certainly been expecting him to be moved to free up spots for other players. He lacks confidence and physical play despite his good size and above average skills. As for Dumont what is your problem with him? He has had three 20 goal seasons and two 50 point seasons. And the only time he hadn't gotten at least 40 was last year when the whole Organization was struggling with Bankruptcy. I don't expect him to do any more than what he has already done and have never made him out to be some superstar player. He has become a better leader and more well rounded player and I'm happy for that, but I have no expectations for him to score more than what he has already accomplished in his career.

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11-02-2004, 12:37 PM
  #110
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Do us both a favor and knock off the childish word games. You know exactly what I meant. Over the course of his career, this is basically a player that will hit in the 15 goal 30 - 35 point range. The fact that he scored one more goal than that in a single year is of little interest to me. And, frankly, I would even discount that because he did it in a year when scoring was up much higher. I don't see him as being even a 21-goal scorer in today's NHL.

The problem I have with you logic is the assumption that Maxim will DEFINITELY get 30 if he was in a better situation. I remember hearing the same argument with regard to Peca years ago. Buffalo Sabre homers were assuring us that he was actually a 30 goal 70 point man, but he couldn't hit those numbers because he had Valac Varada as a linemate and was in a defensive system. Then, there were those of you who insisted that Satan was actually a 50 goal scorer. And, of course, everybody from Dumont on down is a potential 30 goal scorer. Potential is sometimes realized, most often it is not.

I used to hear the same claims on the Isles boards with regard to Czerkawski. Chow is a really talented guy, and if you use him right, he'll get you 35 - 40 a year. Blah, blah, blah.

When Maxim scores 30 then he will be a 30 goal scorer. Right now, he is a 15 - 20 goal guy in most seasons. And, I frankly don't think he is EVER going to do better than that. To be clear, I am not saying he has not done that in the past. I'm saying with today's tighter checking NHL, and his current effort level and abilities, I don't think he is likely to do much better than that.

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11-02-2004, 12:50 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Do us both a favor and knock off the childish word games. You know exactly what I meant. Over the course of his career, this is basically a player that will hit in the 15 goal 30 - 35 point range. The fact that he scored one more goal than that in a single year is of little interest to me. And, frankly, I would even discount that because he did it in a year when scoring was up much higher. I don't see him as being even a 21-goal scorer in today's NHL.

The problem I have with you logic is the assumption that Maxim will DEFINITELY get 30 if he was in a better situation. I remember hearing the same argument with regard to Peca years ago. Buffalo Sabre homers were assuring us that he was actually a 30 goal 70 point man, but he couldn't hit those numbers because he had Valac Varada as a linemate and was in a defensive system. Then, there were those of you who insisted that Satan was actually a 50 goal scorer. And, of course, everybody from Dumont on down is a potential 30 goal scorer. Potential is sometimes realized, most often it is not.

I used to hear the same claims on the Isles boards with regard to Czerkawski. Chow is a really talented guy, and if you use him right, he'll get you 35 - 40 a year. Blah, blah, blah.

When Maxim scores 30 then he will be a 30 goal scorer. Right now, he is a 15 - 20 goal guy in most seasons. And, I frankly don't think he is EVER going to do better than that. To be clear, I am not saying he has not done that in the past. I'm saying with today's tighter checking NHL, and his current effort level and abilities, I don't think he is likely to do much better than that.
Word Darth. Given that the Sabres strength is having two very good centers in Briere and Drury, I really don't see how Maxim's or any other Sabres winger situation could be all that much better.

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11-02-2004, 01:05 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Do us both a favor and knock off the childish word games. You know exactly what I meant. Over the course of his career, this is basically a player that will hit in the 15 goal 30 - 35 point range. The fact that he scored one more goal than that in a single year is of little interest to me. And, frankly, I would even discount that because he did it in a year when scoring was up much higher. I don't see him as being even a 21-goal scorer in today's NHL.

The problem I have with you logic is the assumption that Maxim will DEFINITELY get 30 if he was in a better situation. I remember hearing the same argument with regard to Peca years ago. Buffalo Sabre homers were assuring us that he was actually a 30 goal 70 point man, but he couldn't hit those numbers because he had Valac Varada as a linemate and was in a defensive system. Then, there were those of you who insisted that Satan was actually a 50 goal scorer. And, of course, everybody from Dumont on down is a potential 30 goal scorer. Potential is sometimes realized, most often it is not.

I used to hear the same claims on the Isles boards with regard to Czerkawski. Chow is a really talented guy, and if you use him right, he'll get you 35 - 40 a year. Blah, blah, blah.

When Maxim scores 30 then he will be a 30 goal scorer. Right now, he is a 15 - 20 goal guy in most seasons. And, I frankly don't think he is EVER going to do better than that. To be clear, I am not saying he has not done that in the past. I'm saying with today's tighter checking NHL, and his current effort level and abilities, I don't think he is likely to do much better than that.
Show me where I said he was a DEFINITIE 30 goal scorer. C'mon show me. Where? Oh yeah, I didn't. When I quote you I'm playing, and I quote " childish word games", but you would rather make up things like me saying he was definitely a 30 goal scorer. And just because I feel a 25 year old playing on a defensive teams third line with guys like Brown and Botterrill has the ability to be more than a "30 - 35 point range" player that he has already established himself as being able to accomplish is being a homer. And since you can't actually find me saying that Dumont or Kotalik are "superstars in the making" your going to just make all of the Sabres fans out to be "homers" about Peca and Dumont? Give it a rest. You have no merit to base your opinion of Afinogenov on and now you are just making a fool of yourself by making a generalization like that because I am backing on the Sabres players.

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11-02-2004, 01:12 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
Show me where I said he was a DEFINITIE 30 goal scorer. C'mon show me. Where? Oh yeah, I didn't. When I quote you I'm playing, and I quote " childish word games", but you would rather make up things like me saying he was definitely a 30 goal scorer. And just because I feel a 25 year old playing on a defensive teams third line with guys like Brown and Botterrill has the ability to be more than a "30 - 35 point range" player that he has already established himself as being able to accomplish is being a homer. And since you can't actually find me saying that Dumont or Kotalik are "superstars in the making" your going to just make all of the Sabres fans out to be "homers" about Peca and Dumont? Give it a rest. You have no merit to base your opinion of Afinogenov on and now you are just making a fool of yourself by making a generalization like that because I am backing on the Sabres players.
Give it a rest already...

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11-02-2004, 10:16 PM
  #114
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Yeah, give it a rest. Detroit will not be trading Datsyuk for a package involving Maxim Afinogenov.

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11-02-2004, 11:32 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digable5
Show me where I said he was a DEFINITIE 30 goal scorer. C'mon show me. Where? Oh yeah, I didn't. When I quote you I'm playing, and I quote " childish word games", but you would rather make up things like me saying he was definitely a 30 goal scorer. And just because I feel a 25 year old playing on a defensive teams third line with guys like Brown and Botterrill has the ability to be more than a "30 - 35 point range" player that he has already established himself as being able to accomplish is being a homer. And since you can't actually find me saying that Dumont or Kotalik are "superstars in the making" your going to just make all of the Sabres fans out to be "homers" about Peca and Dumont? Give it a rest. You have no merit to base your opinion of Afinogenov on and now you are just making a fool of yourself by making a generalization like that because I am backing on the Sabres players.
I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with both of the posters above.

Give it a rest.

But feel free to PM if you want.

And, btw, I don't think there is anything wrong with the suggestion that this player CAN turn it around. I just don't personally think he will. But, that is only my personal opinion and I make no promises.

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11-13-2004, 02:55 AM
  #116
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AND TO THINK THAT SOME OF MY TRADE PROPOSALS WERE ANSWERED BY "LIQUOR=BAD". WHERE IS jtuzzi WHEN YOU NEED HIM?

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11-13-2004, 03:27 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdoak
Datsyuk- Still adjusting to NHL game and long season. Upside is Fedorov while his downside is a strong #2/#1a center (which he is already)
You have got to be kidding. I love Pavel but even if he reaches his upside he's nothing even remotely similar to Fedorov. Datsuyk is a highly skilled playmaking center with some scoring touch, a potential 30/55/85 guy. Fedorov is one of the great two-way players in NHL history. There's dimensions to his game Pavel can only dream about having, because they will never be there.

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11-13-2004, 01:53 PM
  #118
Darth Milbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
You have got to be kidding. I love Pavel but even if he reaches his upside he's nothing even remotely similar to Fedorov. Datsuyk is a highly skilled playmaking center with some scoring touch, a potential 30/55/85 guy. Fedorov is one of the great two-way players in NHL history. There's dimensions to his game Pavel can only dream about having, because they will never be there.
I completely agree with you. I sometimes tend to discount Federov because he has never made the most of his incredible skills. But, if you watch him on a good night, you see a flawless two-way player whose game is basically without weakness.

You're also right about Daytsuyk. Gifted playmaker, to say the least.

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