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Old
09-15-2009, 10:58 PM
  #26
Chruceg
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Maybe the reason Frolov's shooting percentage is so high is because he specifically chooses only to shoot in extremely high percentage situations.

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09-15-2009, 11:22 PM
  #27
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So, praise a player for his puck control and decision making, but condemn him for not taking more pointless shots?

I know that is a gross exaggeration, but c'mon, Brown crossing the blueline and floating a softie into the goalie's chest is damn near the same thing as a turnover. O'Sullivan's hot potato-ing is another terrible example.

The biggest pressing issue regarding the even strength goal scoring is a lack of presence in the middle of the ice - playmaking, net crashing, and basically, balls out effort. Lombardi knows this, hence acquring Williams and Smyth, their mutual forte, plus the drafting of ballsy guys like Moller, Schenn and Clifford when more purely skilled players are available.

However:

A) Your top goal scorer shoots selectively, almost exclusively from in close
B) His best asset is taking the puck from the corner into the traffic areas and making plays
C) Your GM finally acquires players who can profit from this...

And then your coach either stupidly ignores this, or willingly sabotages it by not putting ANY of these assets together in favor of what? Seriously, what?

Kopitar, as good as he is, is just not a playmaker at the level of Frolov, or hell, even Purcell for that matter. Anze skillfully takes advantage of situations, but he doesn't create a whole lot of chances on his own.

Frolov needs to be more selfish, that is a given. It's against his nature, so it is going to be difficult to change his stripes. The coaching decisions certainly aren't helping, and this is going to royally screw up the contract negotiations.

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09-16-2009, 02:38 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
So, praise a player for his puck control and decision making, but condemn him for not taking more pointless shots?

I know that is a gross exaggeration, but c'mon, Brown crossing the blueline and floating a softie into the goalie's chest is damn near the same thing as a turnover. O'Sullivan's hot potato-ing is another terrible example.

The biggest pressing issue regarding the even strength goal scoring is a lack of presence in the middle of the ice - playmaking, net crashing, and basically, balls out effort. Lombardi knows this, hence acquring Williams and Smyth, their mutual forte, plus the drafting of ballsy guys like Moller, Schenn and Clifford when more purely skilled players are available.

However:

A) Your top goal scorer shoots selectively, almost exclusively from in close
B) His best asset is taking the puck from the corner into the traffic areas and making plays
C) Your GM finally acquires players who can profit from this...

And then your coach either stupidly ignores this, or willingly sabotages it by not putting ANY of these assets together in favor of what? Seriously, what?

Kopitar, as good as he is, is just not a playmaker at the level of Frolov, or hell, even Purcell for that matter. Anze skillfully takes advantage of situations, but he doesn't create a whole lot of chances on his own.

Frolov needs to be more selfish, that is a given. It's against his nature, so it is going to be difficult to change his stripes. The coaching decisions certainly aren't helping, and this is going to royally screw up the contract negotiations.
Uh, Kopitar has put up more assists with less to work with than Frolov ever did. Frolov's assist totals have always been unusually low. That's not a fluke. Kopitar is and always will be a superior playmaker. Goal scoring is arguable and Frolov is far and away better defensively, but not a better playmaker.

I understand the Frolov dick suckery that runs rampant on this forum, but saying he's a better playmaker than Kopitar is ****ing dumb. And the statistics back it up.

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09-16-2009, 03:29 AM
  #29
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I'll second this. Frolov isn't going to be able to change his basic instincts and become the kind of player that comes down on the wing by himself and then fires a wrist shot into the logo of the other team's goalie.

He is always going to look to be more creative and try to make a pass, a play to get a better shot for himself, or at the very least take the puck down low and hang onto it until help arrives.

If that's a sin for a player, I disagree. I would like to see him shoot a lot more on the power play or just put the puck on net when there is traffic in front. Thirty goals isn't chopped liver.
30 goals is not chopped liver at all, but you don't get 40 or more goals without getting a few lucky ones and Frolov doesn't allow those types of to happen. Don't take "get the puck on net more" as "change your instincts". That's ridiculous.

Its also about doing what makes him successful MORE. Its not just firing off a wrist shot, its not always waiting for the perfect opportunity to take it to the net, but always remember he is a bull, and force his way there more often. He does when he "on", but when he is being "loafy" that's the difference. He dicks around with the puck more, instead of driving hard like he does when he scores all those goals. If he had that attitude more often, for 80 games a year instead of 65-70, he would score 40 goals and half that extra half shot to a shot per game on his average that we would like to see.

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09-16-2009, 07:02 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
So, praise a player for his puck control and decision making, but condemn him for not taking more pointless shots?

I know that is a gross exaggeration, but c'mon, Brown crossing the blueline and floating a softie into the goalie's chest is damn near the same thing as a turnover. O'Sullivan's hot potato-ing is another terrible example.

The biggest pressing issue regarding the even strength goal scoring is a lack of presence in the middle of the ice - playmaking, net crashing, and basically, balls out effort. Lombardi knows this, hence acquring Williams and Smyth, their mutual forte, plus the drafting of ballsy guys like Moller, Schenn and Clifford when more purely skilled players are available.

However:

A) Your top goal scorer shoots selectively, almost exclusively from in close
B) His best asset is taking the puck from the corner into the traffic areas and making plays
C) Your GM finally acquires players who can profit from this...

And then your coach either stupidly ignores this, or willingly sabotages it by not putting ANY of these assets together in favor of what? Seriously, what?

Kopitar, as good as he is, is just not a playmaker at the level of Frolov, or hell, even Purcell for that matter. Anze skillfully takes advantage of situations, but he doesn't create a whole lot of chances on his own.

Frolov needs to be more selfish, that is a given. It's against his nature, so it is going to be difficult to change his stripes. The coaching decisions certainly aren't helping, and this is going to royally screw up the contract negotiations.
Nice post.

If Frolov is going to score 40 goals, it will be playing with top six forwards and getting premium PP time with them..

This concept of shooting more is all good, but shooting from the boards, bad angles etc isn't going to net a whole lot of goals... unless you're real lucky. In reality, his shooting % will almost certainly fall.

I find it tough to ***** about one of the best, if not best player on the Kings. Putting him with better players and maxmizing his minutes on the PP will do more for this goal/point totals then just blindly throwing a few at the net or putting him with 3rd liners.

Kings management better get him signed or find a player at least equal to his abilities on offence and defence. Playing exclusively on the 3rd line is a waste of his talent. If he's double shifted and gets premium minutes on PP then he will do well.

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09-16-2009, 10:38 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
30 goals is not chopped liver at all, but you don't get 40 or more goals without getting a few lucky ones and Frolov doesn't allow those types of to happen. Don't take "get the puck on net more" as "change your instincts". That's ridiculous.

Its also about doing what makes him successful MORE. Its not just firing off a wrist shot, its not always waiting for the perfect opportunity to take it to the net, but always remember he is a bull, and force his way there more often. He does when he "on", but when he is being "loafy" that's the difference. He dicks around with the puck more, instead of driving hard like he does when he scores all those goals. If he had that attitude more often, for 80 games a year instead of 65-70, he would score 40 goals and half that extra half shot to a shot per game on his average that we would like to see.
Ok, I will agree that he could take the puck to the net with authority more often. I don't think that equates to a ton more shots. Shooting from anywhere and everywhere like Brown, O'Sullivan, and Cammalleri all do is what increases the shot totals. Frolov just isn't going to do that.

Kopitar seems to have the same problem in not taking the puck hard to the net often enough, but he gets a pass from most fans.

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09-16-2009, 11:02 AM
  #32
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Frolov will shoot it when he feels like he can score. "Get the puck to the net" is all well and good, but I've always hated it when some player takes a shot from the boards and its in the goalies chest or way wide and rims out of the zone.

Let Frolov do what Frolov does.


Edit: However, I will say that Frolov has the ability to really take over a game when he wants to.. Thats when he wants to though.

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09-16-2009, 01:10 PM
  #33
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Uh, Kopitar has put up more assists with less to work with than Frolov ever did. Frolov's assist totals have always been unusually low. That's not a fluke. Kopitar is and always will be a superior playmaker. Goal scoring is arguable and Frolov is far and away better defensively, but not a better playmaker.

I understand the Frolov dick suckery that runs rampant on this forum, but saying he's a better playmaker than Kopitar is ****ing dumb. And the statistics back it up.
You obviously didn't bother to check the stat sheets for the last 3 season before making your bold proclamations. What's worse, you either don't pay attention to the actual play, or your analysis sucks. I suggest getting your hands on a few games from the last two seasons where Kopitar and Frolov played on the same line (e.g., NYR game from 07-08, the game @ DC from 08-09) and watching carefully and without prejudice.

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Old
09-16-2009, 01:30 PM
  #34
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You obviously didn't bother to check the stat sheets for the last 3 season before making your bold proclamations. What's worse, you either don't pay attention to the actual play, or your analysis sucks. I suggest getting your hands on a few games from the last two seasons where Kopitar and Frolov played on the same line (e.g., NYR game from 07-08, the game @ DC from 08-09) and watching carefully and without prejudice.
I think Frolov's assist totals will tell you that he is a pretty decent playmaker. He gets his fair share of assists when he is playing with other players that can put the puck in the net.

I agree those two games are good evidence of what Kopitar and Frolov can do when they are on the same line. Unfortunately, it looks like Frolov is going to be relegated to the 3rd line for much of the season since Murray looks like he is going to give the Smyth - Kopitar - Williams combination every opportunity to succeed. Then you have Brown and Purcell as the wingers on the 2nd line, because Teddy doesn't seem to fit anywhere else, and Brown is favored over Frolov in the eyes of management.

I'm wondering what the power play units are going to look like. It sounds like Williams may get some time on the point, so I don't know how that shakes out.

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09-16-2009, 02:05 PM
  #35
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Stop getting so hung on shooting more meaning "take any pot shot you can". Tony just brought up how exaggerated the difference between Frolov and POS/Brown to illustrate a point. No one ever said Frolov should take every damn shot he can regardless of the angle. Like most things, there is a middle ground here, a very large middle ground.

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09-16-2009, 02:09 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Stop getting so hung on shooting more meaning "take any pot shot you can". Tony just brought up how exaggerated the difference between Frolov and POS/Brown to illustrate a point. No one ever said Frolov should take every damn shot he can regardless of the angle. Like most things, there is a middle ground here, a very large middle ground.

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09-16-2009, 02:11 PM
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Sooooo in 400 years we'll appreciate Frolov and feel that he was wronged?

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09-16-2009, 02:14 PM
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Sooooo in 400 years we'll appreciate Frolov and feel that he was wronged?
According to Richard White, yes.

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09-16-2009, 02:14 PM
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According to Richard White, yes.
Well then good thing I'm a patient man!

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09-16-2009, 02:53 PM
  #40
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Stop getting so hung on shooting more meaning "take any pot shot you can". Tony just brought up how exaggerated the difference between Frolov and POS/Brown to illustrate a point. No one ever said Frolov should take every damn shot he can regardless of the angle. Like most things, there is a middle ground here, a very large middle ground.
If you'd read my original post carefully, you'd see that I don't get hung on that.

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09-16-2009, 03:05 PM
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If you'd read my original post carefully, you'd see that I don't get hung on that.
Wasn't really referring to that post, but rather all the subsequent posts that dismiss "Frolov should shoot more" as "Bad angle shots are pointless." Just seems to be holding up a real conversation about how Frolov could use to shoot more, since so many seem to think that can only mean taking bad shots.

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09-16-2009, 03:28 PM
  #42
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"When do you get sick of losing and take responsibility for winning?" Lombardi said. "It's not only how many he scores, when he scores, when you rise to the occasion."
For a second there, I thought DL was talking about himself.

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09-16-2009, 03:29 PM
  #43
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Wasn't really referring to that post, but rather all the subsequent posts that dismiss "Frolov should shoot more" as "Bad angle shots are pointless." Just seems to be holding up a real conversation about how Frolov could use to shoot more, since so many seem to think that can only mean taking bad shots.
Is there a forward that played for the Kings last season that wasn't guilty of not taking the puck to the net as often as they should?

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09-16-2009, 03:34 PM
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Is there a forward that played for the Kings last season that wasn't guilty of not taking the puck to the net as often as they should?
Tangential.

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09-16-2009, 03:38 PM
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Frolov couldn't shoot more last season because Brown took them all.

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09-16-2009, 04:00 PM
  #46
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Appreciation For Fro...

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Originally Posted by Labs 4 Vezina View Post
Frolov will shoot it when he feels like he can score. "Get the puck to the net" is all well and good, but I've always hated it when some player takes a shot from the boards and its in the goalies chest or way wide and rims out of the zone.

Let Frolov do what Frolov does.


Edit: However, I will say that Frolov has the ability to really take over a game when he wants to.. Thats when he wants to though.
There are only a few players in the league that can even do this on any given nite... DL did also point this out in his evaluation of Fro. He has managed to keep Fro even thou many wanted him in trade the last couple years. I only hope DL and Murray come to value Fro as much as we fans do. I know alot is falling on Sasha's Shoulders this season and from his interview he wants to shoulder the responsiblity to take the team an himself to the next level!

I am excited to see how this all plays out, I will be a fan of Frolov no matter how this ends up. Just really hope he is resigned. I don't see how you could come up with a better player in trade or two or three assets than he has been for our Franchise.

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09-16-2009, 05:36 PM
  #47
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Tangential.
So what? Do you need a separate thread for every player on the team that doesn't take the puck hard to the net often enough?

Frolov isn't even top 5 on the team in that category.

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09-16-2009, 05:55 PM
  #48
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So what? Do you need a separate thread for every player on the team that doesn't take the puck hard to the net often enough?

Frolov isn't even top 5 on the team in that category.
So, you are diverting the argument to a team problem, which while it may be the same one Fro has, is not relevant or an excuse for Frolov as an individual. So I submit to you, so what?

If you were just making a general point, why quote my post? You seem to be saying that since it is a team-wide problem, we should lay off Fro?

If he's not top 5 on the team, that is even more of a reason to insist on seeing more of this from Fro. He's the strongest player on the puck we have, and the most skilled from in tight. He should be 1st or 2nd.

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09-16-2009, 07:46 PM
  #49
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So, you are diverting the argument to a team problem, which while it may be the same one Fro has, is not relevant or an excuse for Frolov as an individual. So I submit to you, so what?

If you were just making a general point, why quote my post? You seem to be saying that since it is a team-wide problem, we should lay off Fro?

If he's not top 5 on the team, that is even more of a reason to insist on seeing more of this from Fro. He's the strongest player on the puck we have, and the most skilled from in tight. He should be 1st or 2nd.
He is not top 5 in terms of having this problem. Frolov does not play a perimeter game compared to many of our other forwards. He is around the net most of the time.

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09-16-2009, 07:48 PM
  #50
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He is not top 5 in terms of having this problem. Frolov does not play a perimeter game compared to many of our other forwards. He is around the net most of the time.
Ah, then I misunderstood what you meant by top 5.

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