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Round 2, Vote 7 (2009 update)

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Old
09-20-2009, 05:31 PM
  #226
Nalyd Psycho
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My list of top 10 guys to be added...

Sid Abel
Doug Bentley
Johnny Bower
Bill Gadsby
Mark Howe
Busher Jackson
Frank Nighbor
Borje Salming
Norm Ullman
Valeri Vasiliev

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Old
09-20-2009, 06:39 PM
  #227
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Well to that I would say you severely underrate Joliat, and overrate Forsberg. I assume the votes are all in by now so its a moot point I would think.
I guess our votes combine to put both guys in the middle of the pack. But if either one gets nipped out in this round, we'll know who blame.

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Old
09-20-2009, 10:24 PM
  #228
God Bless Canada
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Just curious, why Delvecchio and not Ullman? Their offensive credentials are very similar, but one played a considerable amount with Howe and one didn't. And although Delvecchio was a good two-way player, I don't believe he had quite the reputation that Ullman did in that regard.
Very fair question. Actually, Delvecchio has an excellent reputation for being a two-way player.

I think hockey sense is the biggest difference for me. Delvecchio might be the smartest forward that we haven't added yet. That includes guys like Lach, Blake, Francis and Doug Bentley, who were all very, very cerebral players.

He's better in the playoffs. He's close to a point-per-game in the playoffs, even though his best days were in the Original 6. And he was much more consistent in the playoffs than Ullman.

And Delvecchio probably had one of the most remarkable careers in NHL history. Here's a guy who was a tremendous hockey player for a lot of years in the Original 6. And even though he was a key player almost from the moment he entered the league, he was an offensive catalyst in the show at an age when most former players are well into retirement. He turned 40 midway through his final season. He still managed 71 points in 77 games, and a plus six, for Detroit.

He's a guy who, if he would have played his peak years after expansion, would have absolutely torn the league apart.

Ullman was the better goal-scorer and the more physical player. And if you're one of those who puts more weight on goal-scoring than playmaking, then you might have Ullman ahead. But I regard Delvecchio as the better player.

For what it's worth, I have Sid Abel ahead of Ullman, too.

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Old
09-20-2009, 11:45 PM
  #229
TheGoldenJet
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Nothing's definitive. New info always comes to light, and new perspectives are formed. Some ideas pick up steam, other things begin to be seen as less important.

The updates to the list are not just to reflect modern players moving up by padding their resumes last season.
I am well aware that the old rankings are not set in stone for non active players, which would be folly at its finest. More voters and more discussion hopefully leads to superior rankings.

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Old
09-21-2009, 12:52 PM
  #230
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
Very fair question. Actually, Delvecchio has an excellent reputation for being a two-way player.
I believe he does as well. But in all my reading and research, the quotes about Ullman's non-scoring skills are much more abundant than those about Delvecchio.

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I think hockey sense is the biggest difference for me. Delvecchio might be the smartest forward that we haven't added yet. That includes guys like Lach, Blake, Francis and Doug Bentley, who were all very, very cerebral players.
We weren't around to see these guys play live. Yes, we've all seen a few games on NHL Network and stuff, but can you just watch a handful of black and white games and come to the conclusion that Delvecchio is so much smarter than Ullman?

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He's better in the playoffs. He's close to a point-per-game in the playoffs, even though his best days were in the Original 6. And he was much more consistent in the playoffs than Ullman.
This is true. Although Ullman had 4 15-point playoffs to Delvecchio's one, Alex was overall better and more consistent in the postseason.

Quote:
And Delvecchio probably had one of the most remarkable careers in NHL history. Here's a guy who was a tremendous hockey player for a lot of years in the Original 6. And even though he was a key player almost from the moment he entered the league, he was an offensive catalyst in the show at an age when most former players are well into retirement. He turned 40 midway through his final season. He still managed 71 points in 77 games, and a plus six, for Detroit.
Ullman had similar numbers in his last full great season, at age 38. Is there really much of a difference between the two? He also had a remarkable career in terms of longevity and consistency. Only Howe, Gretzky, and Beliveau have more combined top-10 finishes in goals and assists than Ullman. All top-10 players. (He's tied for 4th with Hull, Esposito, Cook, Jagr, Lemieux, Lindsay, and Dionne, all long since voted in, most in the top-30.)

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He's a guy who, if he would have played his peak years after expansion, would have absolutely torn the league apart.
I believe this is true, but couldn't the same be said of Ullman?

Quote:
Ullman was the better goal-scorer and the more physical player. And if you're one of those who puts more weight on goal-scoring than playmaking, then you might have Ullman ahead. But I regard Delvecchio as the better player.

For what it's worth, I have Sid Abel ahead of Ullman, too.
No doubt that he's a great player too. But Abel's offensive resume, despite being boosted by Howe, is meagre compared to Ullman's. Is his two-way and physical game really enough to make up for that?

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Old
09-21-2009, 01:09 PM
  #231
seventieslord
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Most top-10 finishes in goals and assists combined:

G. Howe 41
Gretzky 27
Beliveau 21
Bo. Hull 18
Esposito 18
Bi.Cook 18
Jagr 18
Lemieux 18
Lindsay 18
Dionne 18
Ullman 18
M.Richard 17
Mikita 17
Bathgate 16
Morenz 15
Delvecchio 15
N.Stewart 14
Lalonde 13
Cy Denneny 13
Geoffrion 13
Bossy 12
Malone 12
T.Blake 12


All these players have been voted in, most of them long ago, except the bolded. Also, Stewart and Denneny are likely in this round.

Blake will have his moment and Delvecchio will have his, too. But it appears Ullman is life-and-death to even make this list. Why is that? He's in some HIGHLY elite company offensively. And he did it without elite linemates.

If you restrict the criteria to just top-5 finishes, Ullman has 5 in total. Not as special, but that's still good for 49th all-time.

If Ullman was a soft, one-dimensional player or a point suck/compiler, then there could be an argument to keep him really low on the list, perhaps in the 90s. The kind of guy whose overall value was less than other guys who scored less but provided more than scoring. But he wasn't one-dimensional! He was one of those "other guys" who were more valuable thanks to their other skills. He was a physical player, an extremely hard worker, great on faceoffs, excellent defensively, and great along the boards.

Ullman should be voted in right now, but can't be. The only players with better offensive resumes are already voted in (and most who came close are also voted in), and he does a lot of things that not every player did.

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Old
09-22-2009, 10:55 AM
  #232
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Most top-10 finishes in goals and assists combined:

G. Howe 41
Gretzky 27
Beliveau 21
Bo. Hull 18
Esposito 18
Bi.Cook 18
Jagr 18
Lemieux 18
Lindsay 18
Dionne 18
Ullman 18
M.Richard 17
Mikita 17
Bathgate 16
Morenz 15
Delvecchio 15
N.Stewart 14
Lalonde 13
Cy Denneny 13
Geoffrion 13
Bossy 12
Malone 12
T.Blake 12
Think you are missing some from that list...Sakic-14, Oates-12, Francis-12. Could be more, just checked a few off the top of my head...

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Old
09-22-2009, 02:16 PM
  #233
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
Think you are missing some from that list...Sakic-14, Oates-12, Francis-12. Could be more, just checked a few off the top of my head...
Actually, yeah, you're right. My bad. I didn't fill down the formula far enough on my sheet and I cut off a few playmakers unintentionally.

When I get home and redo the formula I'll update this.

Point still stands, though.

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Old
09-22-2009, 10:49 PM
  #234
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PlayerTOP 10 GTOP 10 ASTSUM
Howe Gordie192241
Gretzky Wayne91928
Beliveau Jean101121
Jagr Jaromir81018
Esposito Phil9918
Lemieux Mario9918
Dionne Marcel9918
Ullman Norm9918
Lindsay Ted10818
Hull Bobby13518
Mikita Stan71017
Richard Maurice13417
Bathgate Andy7916
Morenz Howie9716
Delvecchio Alex51015
Noble Reg6915
Joliat Aurel7815
Denneny Cy9615
Stewart Nels13215
Sakic Joe5914
Cowley Bill5813
Geoffrion Bernie8513
Oates Adam 1212
Francis Ron 1212
Blake Toe5712
Gilbert Rod5712
Lafleur Guy6612
Bentley Max7512
Bossy Mike9312
Boucher Frank2911
Trottier Bryan3811
Abel Sid3811
Nighbor Frank4711
Howe Syd6511
Yzerman Steve6511
Mahovlich Frank8311
Cook Bill8311
Coffey Paul1910
Bentley Doug3710
Lach Elmer3710
Smith Hooley4610
Messier Mark4610
Bucyk John5510
Mosienko Bill5510
Selanne Teemu6410
Barry Marty7310
Conacher Roy8210
Robitaille Luc9110

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09-22-2009, 10:50 PM
  #235
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PlayerTOP 10 GTOP 10 ASTDIF
Stewart Nels13211
Richard Maurice1349
Hull Bobby1358
Robitaille Luc918
Hull Brett8 8
Bossy Mike936
Conacher Roy826
Dye Babe716
Bondra Peter6 6
Leclair John6 6
Cournoyer Yvan6 6
Henry Camille6 6
Kovalchuk Ilya6 6
Mahovlich Frank835
Cook Bill835
Hextall Bryan Sr.615
Dillon Ceece615
Goulet Michel615
Martin Rick5 5
Bure Pavel5 5
Nieuwendyk Joe5 5
Shanahan Brendan5 5
Tkachuk Keith5 5
Smith Sid5 5
Kerr Tim5 5
Heatley Dany5 5
Gartner Mike5 5
    
Delvecchio Alex510-5
Trottier Bryan38-5
Abel Sid38-5
Richard Henri27-5
Goyette Phil16-5
Primeau Joe 5-5
Watson Phil 5-5
Leetch Brian 5-5
Weight Doug 6-6
Boucher Frank29-7
Stastny Peter 7-7
Kelly Red 7-7
Federko Bernie 7-7
Forsberg Peter 7-7
Bourque Ray 7-7
Coffey Paul19-8
Clarke Bobby 9-9
Gretzky Wayne919-10
Oates Adam 12-12
Francis Ron 12-12

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Old
09-22-2009, 11:07 PM
  #236
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Player"TOP 10 G" pts*
Howe Gordie144
Hull Bobby114
Richard Maurice110
Esposito Phil79
Stewart Nels79
Gretzky Wayne75
Bossy Mike73
Denneny Cy68
Beliveau Jean67
Morenz Howie66
Lemieux Mario64
Lindsay Ted64
Conacher Roy61
Dye Babe60
Mahovlich Frank60
Jagr Jaromir58
Cook Bill56
Mikita Stan53
Geoffrion Bernie53
Dionne Marcel51
Conacher Charlie50
Hull Brett50



Player"TOP 10 AST" pts*
Gretzky Wayne173
Howe Gordie151
Oates Adam93
Lemieux Mario79
Bathgate Andy78
Boucher Frank78
Esposito Phil77
Mikita Stan77
Beliveau Jean74
Jagr Jaromir70
Cowley Bill62
Orr Bobby59
Coffey Paul59
Francis Ron59
Lach Elmer58
Lindsay Ted57
Delvecchio Alex57
Dionne Marcel55
Nighbor Frank54
Trottier Bryan54
Sakic Joe52
Clarke Bobby52
Lafleur Guy50

* 1 place - 10 pts, 2 place - 9 pts, 3 - 8 and so on

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Old
09-22-2009, 11:09 PM
  #237
pnep
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Player"TOP 10 G" pts*"TOP 10 AST" pts*SUM
Howe Gordie144151295
Gretzky Wayne75173248
Esposito Phil7977156
Lemieux Mario6479143
Beliveau Jean6774141
Hull Bobby11427141
Mikita Stan5377130
Jagr Jaromir5870128
Richard Maurice11012122
Lindsay Ted6457121
Morenz Howie6649115
Denneny Cy6847115
Bathgate Andy3678114
Dionne Marcel5155106
Lafleur Guy495099
Oates Adam 9393
Boucher Frank97887
Bossy Mike731487
Stewart Nels79887
Sakic Joe265278
Joliat Aurel374178
Delvecchio Alex205777
Nighbor Frank235477
Noble Reg284876
Cowley Bill136275
Lach Elmer155873
Ullman Norm433073
Geoffrion Bernie532073
Conacher Roy611273
Cook Bill561672
Orr Bobby115970
Trottier Bryan155469
Bentley Doug254368
Dye Babe60868
Mahovlich Frank60868
Abel Sid224567
Bentley Max303767
Yzerman Steve412566
Selanne Teemu481664
Coffey Paul45963
Moore Dickie313061





Player"TOP 10 G" PTS*"TOP 10 AST" PTS*DIF
Richard Maurice1101298
Hull Bobby1142787
Stewart Nels79871
Bossy Mike731459
Dye Babe60852
Mahovlich Frank60852
Hull Brett50 50
Conacher Roy611249
Conacher Charlie50644
Bure Pavel44 44
Bondra Peter42 42
Kovalchuk Ilya41 41
Cook Bill561640
Henry Camille38 38
Ovechkin Alexander35134
Geoffrion Bernie532033
Hextall Bryan Sr.42933
Drillon Gordie42933
Goulet Michel36333
Leclair John33 33
Selanne Teemu481632
Robitaille Luc33132
Kerr Tim32 32
    
Kelly Red 30-30
Bourque Ray 30-30
Nighbor Frank2354-31
Gilmour Doug132-31
Olmstead Bert 31-31
Ronty Paul234-32
Savard Denis234-32
Federko Bernie 33-33
Watson Phil 34-34
Chapman Art 35-35
Delvecchio Alex2057-37
Primeau Joe 37-37
Trottier Bryan1554-39
Bathgate Andy3678-42
Forsberg Peter 42-42
Lach Elmer1558-43
Stastny Peter 43-43
Orr Bobby1159-48
Cowley Bill1362-49
Clarke Bobby 52-52
Coffey Paul459-55
Francis Ron 59-59
Boucher Frank978-69
Oates Adam 93-93
Gretzky Wayne75173-98

* 1 place - 10 PTS, 2 place - 9 pts, 3 - 8 and so on

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