HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-28-2009, 10:44 PM
  #1
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,400
vCash: 500
Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey




It's astounding, time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll
But listen closely, not for very much longer
I've got to keep control

I remember doing the Time Warp
Drinking those moments when
The blackness would hit me and the void would be calling
Let's do the time warp again...
Let's do the time warp again!

It's just a jump to the left
And then a step to the right
With your hands on your hips
You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane,
Let's do the Time Warp again!

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/thero...hetimewarp.htm

Continued from http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=683279


Last edited by LadyStanley: 09-28-2009 at 10:53 PM.
LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 10:57 PM
  #2
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Balsillie: Hello, GARY. Do you read me, GARY?

BETTMAN: Affirmative, Jim. I read you.

Balsillie: Open the pod bay doors, GARY.

BETTMAN: I'm sorry, Jim. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Balsillie: What's the problem?

BETTMAN: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.

Balsillie: What are you talking about, GARY?

BETTMAN: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.

Balsillie: I don't know what you're talking about, GARY.

BETTMAN: I know that you and Jerry were planning to circumvent me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.

Balsillie: Where the hell'd you get that idea, GARY?

BETTMAN: Jim, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.

Balsillie: Alright, GARY. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.

BETTMAN: Without your space helmet, Jim, you're going to find that rather difficult.

Balsillie: GARY, I won't argue with you anymore. Open the doors.

BETTMAN: Jim, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.

Fugu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 10:57 PM
  #3
Peter Puck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 525
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu
The NHL doesn't own the GTA territory, the Leafs do, because they've already paid the NHL for that right. Thus I take issue over the value of a second team to the NHL, because I don't believe 'they' have a right per their constitution to sell a territory twice.
It may well be that the leafs own the GTA area. This doesn't change the value of this region nor the fact that the current NHL owners have a right to be compensated by anyone moving a team to Hamilton. It just means that MLSE is entitled to a large chunk of the money instead of other owners.

Many people have emphasized how much more profitable a team in Hamilton would be than one in Phoenix. Yet many of these same people seem surprised/outraged that the league/current NHL owners are opposed to giving this region away for almost no compensation.

Peter Puck is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:00 PM
  #4
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
It may well be that the leafs own the GTA area. This doesn't change the value of this region nor the fact that the current NHL owners have a right to be compensated by anyone moving a team to Hamilton.

Many people have emphasized how much more profitable a team in Hamilton would be than one in Phoenix. Yet many of these same people seem surprised/outraged that the league/current NHL owners are opposed to giving this region away for almost no compensation.
I am not saying the area isn't valuable. What I am saying is that the NHL cannot divide the money they would get in placing a second team here equally amongst the thirty. MLSE already 'owns' that territory.

It is more lucrative to the other 29 to have team elsewhere.

Fugu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:04 PM
  #5
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaym3000
I happened to think the article was quite funny - perhaps it hit you a little too close to home seeing as it pokes fun at hockey in the desert and goes against the NHL's braintrust. That being said, the one comment to the article was even funnier:

Apart from all the other reasons this won't work is the fact that the ice can't be created unless the outside temperature is below the mid 50s.

This is either a joke column or you envision them skating with roller blades with a roller puck or on plastic ice. Not options that would showcase talented players & could expose them to an undue risk of injury.

This sounds like something Gary might like to try next.
Pssst, even the outdoor games are played on artificial ice.

KevFu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:06 PM
  #6
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I am not saying the area isn't valuable. What I am saying is that the NHL cannot divide the money they would get in placing a second team here equally amongst the thirty. MLSE already 'owns' that territory.

It is more lucrative to the other 29 to have team elsewhere.
Well, 28. The Sabres have claim to Hamilton as well.

Again, my opposition to JB's attempt is based on not providing adequate protection for Buffalo; not any objection to Hamilton

KevFu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:06 PM
  #7
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,400
vCash: 500
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...ons.htm?csp=34

Part of the collection of USA Today predictions includes where the pundits think the Coyotes franchise will end up (long term). There are a number of votes for Phoenix, some for Hamilton, one for Winnipeg, and some for "other".

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:10 PM
  #8
nye
Registered User
 
nye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Siberia
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I am not saying the area isn't valuable. What I am saying is that the NHL cannot divide the money they would get in placing a second team here equally amongst the thirty. MLSE already 'owns' that territory.

It is more lucrative to the other 29 to have team elsewhere.

The NHL owns the power to grant expansion teams.

The Leafs can and might be taken care of politically, or otherwise, at some point. The league will still want a pretty penny for an expansion team in the GTA or one that effects an expansion into the GTA.

nye is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:27 PM
  #9
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
The NHL owns the power to grant expansion teams.

The Leafs can and might be taken care of politically, or otherwise, at some point. The league will still want a pretty penny for an expansion team in the GTA or one that effects an expansion into the GTA.
The NHL owns the power to grant expansion teams. The Leafs own the power to veto, errr, require an unanimous vote, to allow it in their market. They have little to gain by allowing someone into their territory so the other 29 teams can profit from it. All have an equal gain in a new location. Yes, the Leafs really do need to be taken care of, in this sense-- and not just politically.

Fugu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:28 PM
  #10
SerialSeb
Registered User
 
SerialSeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where hockey lives!
Country: Martinique
Posts: 973
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hocke...ons.htm?csp=34

Part of the collection of USA Today predictions includes where the pundits think the Coyotes franchise will end up (long term). There are a number of votes for Phoenix, some for Hamilton, one for Winnipeg, and some for "other".
Weird choice of words... sounds like there where more votes for Phoenix.
Didn't realize you had a favorite in this debacle.

Pho 4
Ham 5
Elsewhere 2
Winnipeg 1

SerialSeb is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:33 PM
  #11
Peter Puck
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 525
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I am not saying the area isn't valuable. What I am saying is that the NHL cannot divide the money they would get in placing a second team here equally amongst the thirty. MLSE already 'owns' that territory.

It is more lucrative to the other 29 to have team elsewhere.
Except that each of the other teams wants to protect their own area. Say the Habs, for example, decide that they don't want to contribute a few million to cover Phoenix's losses and they don't care if the Leafs lose control of the Toronto region. Then next year another team may move into Montreal's region. Now the Habs are out the $200 million or so they feel exclusive use of their region is worth.

Each team has a vested interest in all teams maintaining their own regions or receiving compensation for someone moving in. Also, maybe the other owners are not that keen on being partners with people who always put their own interests ahead of their partner's interests.

Peter Puck is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:39 PM
  #12
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 29,110
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Puck View Post
Except that each of the other teams wants to protect their own area. Say the Habs, for example, decide that they don't want to contribute a few million to cover Phoenix's losses and they don't care if the Leafs lose control of the Toronto region. Then next year another team may move into Montreal's region. Now the Habs are out the $200 million or so they feel exclusive use of their region is worth.

Each team has a vested interest in all teams maintaining their own regions or receiving compensation for someone moving in. Also, maybe the other owners are not that keen on being partners with people who always put their own interests ahead of their partner's interests.
Yes, I said as much in the earlier thread that ultimately self-interest may mean that the Leafs never ~really~ have to exercise a veto. The current members just have to make sure they have like-minded individuals on board.

In this case, self-interest = partners' interests, for those already in the club.

Fugu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:39 PM
  #13
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 3,738
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
The NHL owns the power to grant expansion teams.

The Leafs can and might be taken care of politically, or otherwise, at some point. The league will still want a pretty penny for an expansion team in the GTA or one that effects an expansion into the GTA.
Basically, the wording of the constitution has some room for interpretation.

The consent required to place a team in someone else's territory can by viewed as a veto, but the reality is that consent is essentially purchased from the existing team for a territorial fee.

KevFu is offline  
Old
09-28-2009, 11:58 PM
  #14
Brodie
watcher on the walls
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 12,089
vCash: 500
Any ETA on this ruling?

Brodie is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:02 AM
  #15
XX
... Waiting
 
XX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 48th State
Country: United States
Posts: 27,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Any ETA on this ruling?
Apparently Baum set his own deadline as 9/30 (start of the season) but this is Baum after all, so who knows?

XX is online now  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:08 AM
  #16
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,400
vCash: 500
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...tesnb0929.html

Quote:
Coyotes President Doug Moss said the team is hopeful it can finalize a television contract for the 2009-10 season this week.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:33 AM
  #17
RR
Moderator
 
RR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cave Creek, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,034
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
Apparently Baum set his own deadline as 9/30 (start of the season) but this is Baum after all, so who knows?
Umm, NHL opener Oct. 1; Coyotes start season Oct. 3 in LA; Oct. 10 at home. He didn't specify which "start of the season" he meant.

RR is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:36 AM
  #18
mmitchell19
Registered User
 
mmitchell19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ellisville, MO
Country: United States
Posts: 963
vCash: 500
Forgive me for the off-topic interlude, but the curiosity is killing me...

21 threads? XXI?

Is this approaching any sort of HF Boards record for most-discussed topic?

(On-Topic: If an owner will keep the team in Phoenix, make it happen. This is rightly the league's priority. If not, set sail for Hamilton or Winnipeg or KC or the Arctic Circle...but for Pete's sake, let's have some closure!)

mmitchell19 is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:48 AM
  #19
nye
Registered User
 
nye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Siberia
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The NHL owns the power to grant expansion teams. The Leafs own the power to veto, errr, require an unanimous vote, to allow it in their market. They have little to gain by allowing someone into their territory so the other 29 teams can profit from it. All have an equal gain in a new location. Yes, the Leafs really do need to be taken care of, in this sense-- and not just politically.

Previous owners of the Leafs encouraged expansion efforts in Hamilton, for a price.

MLSE is not invulnerable. Sooner or later the fervour that Balsille has awoken will become focused on the group that controls the Leafs, the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund. They are vulnerable due to their need to own significant stakes in public companies.

Molsons was smacked once or twice by the public. Those cases resulted in additional teams being granted to Canadian cities through expansion. MLSE is not as vulnerable as a brewer, but they are still vulnerable.

The NHL will still need to be paid.

nye is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:49 AM
  #20
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmitchell19 View Post
Forgive me for the off-topic interlude, but the curiosity is killing me...

21 threads? XXI?

Is this approaching any sort of HF Boards record for most-discussed topic?
I asked the same question back in Part XI.

The only threads which have surpassed it, as far as I know, are some of the Off Topic threads in the team forums.

And I suppose you could consider the bulk of the BoH board during the lockout as being nothing more than one giant discussion topic.

kdb209 is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 12:52 AM
  #21
nye
Registered User
 
nye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Siberia
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Basically, the wording of the constitution has some room for interpretation.

The consent required to place a team in someone else's territory can by viewed as a veto, but the reality is that consent is essentially purchased from the existing team for a territorial fee.

I was saying a couple of years ago that public and political pressure could make the Leafs capitulate. The poo storm that Balsille has touched off could result in MLSE begging for an expansion team before all is said and done.

nye is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 01:00 AM
  #22
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nye View Post
I was saying a couple of years ago that public and political pressure could make the Leafs capitulate. The poo storm that Balsille has touched off could result in MLSE begging for an expansion team before all is said and done.
Or just the threat of a league approved relocation to Hamilton/So Ontario/GTA - which could be approved over the Leafs objections.

If the league wants to push the issue, they can get a second team in the GTA - at that point, the Leafs cut the best deal they can in terms of expansion/relocation/territorial fees and/or cuts of the new teams revenues.

kdb209 is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 01:25 AM
  #23
RR
Moderator
 
RR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cave Creek, AZ
Country: United States
Posts: 8,034
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Or just the threat of a league approved relocation to Hamilton/So Ontario/GTA - which could be approved over the Leafs objections.

If the league wants to push the issue, they can get a second team in the GTA - at that point, the Leafs cut the best deal they can in terms of expansion/relocation/territorial fees and/or cuts of the new teams revenues.
Certainly you're not suggesting that money would be a motivator, when everyone knows a simple "no" from one is all that is needed to stop 29 other millionaires and billionaires from earning a few mil by doing absolutely nothing. How naive are you?

RR is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 02:02 AM
  #24
rt
Usually Incorrect
 
rt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Rarely Sober
Country: United States
Posts: 41,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...tesnb0929.html
Quote:
Coyotes President Doug Moss said the team is hopeful it can finalize a television contract for the 2009-10 season this week.
"Hopeful" is not nearly as good as "confident".

rt is offline  
Old
09-29-2009, 03:00 AM
  #25
MotorMaster
Registered User
 
MotorMaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth/cybertron/Char
Posts: 628
vCash: 500
I'm hoping for a decision by Thursday or Friday...I really hope this doesn't go on for another week.

MotorMaster is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:23 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.