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CGY Trades Wayne Primeau to TOR for Colin Stuart, Anton Stralman + CGY 2nd 2011

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Old
07-29-2009, 01:12 PM
  #76
Behind Enemy Lines
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Sutter gets the job done while the Oil management talk about getting the job done. Unfortunately, we have seen two masterful salary dumps executed this summer by the Flamers. Offloading Vandemeer's bloated contract freed dollars and roster positioning for Jay Bo-Ho. This salary dump gets a bottom six overpayment player off the roster.

About the Flamers drafting, they have shown ability to be creative and make deals at the entry draft. Ultimately it is not about the number of picks a team has but rather the impact of those picks that translate into NHL roster players.

I hate, HATE, HATE to defend the Flamers but feel they have been strategic and effective this off season. Building its top end talent base while effectively acquiring cheap support talent and jettisoning overpaid support players. A commitment to improving a consistent playoff team. All the while by being covert and tightlipped so as not to create false expectations.

The Oil? "Hey look. We got the Bulin Wall!" Talk won't cut it for me anymore. This team - a consistent, mediocre and non-playoff team - has to demonstrate its ability to get things done and not simply hope for a massively underperforming roster to miraculously deliver results. /RANT

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07-29-2009, 01:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
I would guess the assessment is about a year away.
I'm okay with that, because the alternative is that Quenney come in and start kickin' ass and takin' names without giving everyone a fair kick.

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07-29-2009, 01:20 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Giant Moo View Post
I'm okay with that, because the alternative is that Quenney come in and start kickin' ass and takin' names without giving everyone a fair kick.
Alas, another season spent wandering in the desert before the long overdue rebuild actual gets started.

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07-29-2009, 01:38 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
so much for the genius of Sutter. This is just a salary dump - it is costing him a 2nd round pick to get rid of Primeau. Stralman was 10th on the depth chart in Toronto and will not make the Flames.

Since he is waiver elligable, the best hope for the Flames is that someone claims him so he is off their 50 contract max. He has negative value.


They have no first or 2nd round pick next year and no 2nd round pick the year after that. The Flames are no officially the Toronto Maple Leafs of the West.
I believe that Sutter has always been a good Gm. You can't argue with the consistent playoff bound track record he has had since he took over. However I think that this summer he has really stepped it up a notch as he has failed to give out a bloated contract to any "grinder type" player. This used to be his down fall. It seems clear to me that the Flames now have a system in which the top players get paid the big bucks and the depth players are paid close to the minimum. This is how Calgary can afford to have world class players in the key positions on their hockey team.

As far as Stralman goes it is unclear if he will make the flames and it is very possible he could be lost to waivers if he doesn't. But what attaining him has done is add to the defensive depth of the organization in such a way that it will create even more competition.

look at it this way - There are (9) players fighting for 3 spots on the Flames defensive roster (Giordano, Pardy, Pelech, Kronwall, Starlman, Aulie, Negrin, Palin, Seabrook) Having this high level of competition spurs all of the other players to improve of fall down the depth chart. Even if Stralman doesn't ever wear a Flames jersey he will push Pelech, Seabrook and Kronwall (the Three other right handed Dmen prospects ) to get better which is exactly what a good organization does with their prospects. Dispite all of Calgary's defensive depth they had a glut of left handed dmen and only Pelech prior to the ataining of Kronwall, Seabrook and Stralman. It looks to me like Sutter has well filled another organizational need over the summer all while getting rid of a bad contract and only at the cost of a 2nd round pick.

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07-29-2009, 01:52 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by dashingsilverfox View Post
Alas, another season spent wandering in the desert before the long overdue rebuild actual gets started.
Don't think there's any choice. It's either give the new coaching staff a chance or just start sacking players left and right before the coaching staff can say boo.

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07-29-2009, 01:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
in the last 6 drafts, the combined total points scored by flames' draft picks is 57. Sutter is very poor at drafting. He hasn't done anything since the dion 7 years ago. Even then, he got the 3rd of three top ranked dmen. Not real hard to do. Sutter, Coburn, and the dion were 100 % a given as the three top dmen. Sutter drafted the dion as the leftover when the other two were already taken.

.
Itís a shame when posters like you just say things without knowing what theyíre talking about...

Sutter has been Calgaryís GM since 2003, and with his policy of bringing picks along slowly, and their draft position, so far the returns look excellent for the Sutterís draft picks. Just because they arenít hyped, or carry much fanfare doesnít mean they arenít good.

Sutterís first draft nabbed them a steal in Dion Phaneuf, a guy who it was obvious Sutter wanted above Suter and Coburn, regardless of where the drafted order shook up.

2004 Sutter managed to grab three players that were on the Flames roster, and will continue to be next year. Dustin Boyd, Adam Pardy and Brandon Prust. There is also Kris Chucko, who was a project at the time, and still is. He made major strides last season scoring 29 goals in the AHL. A darkhorse pick for an NHL job this year.

2005 is looking solid as well, Matt Pelech has future top 3 and maybe top 2 potential in him. There is also late round steal Brett Sutter, who looked poised in his call up last season, even scoring a goal. Interesting and still legit prospects from this draft include Matt Keetly and Gord Baldwin

2006 has Leland Irving, a guy who hasnít done anything but continue to prove heís a number goalie in the making, and 3rd round pick John Armstrong
2007 has the potential to be huge for the Flames... we all know about Mickal Backlund, a really talented player, who can play at both ends, and who dropped from consensus top ten pick the year before, to later in the round because he was injured. Smooth skating John Negrin and World Junior alum Keith Aulie round out this impressive group.
2008 was another good one for the Flames. Big goal scoring winger Greg Nemisz, who knows how to put the puck in the net, and two-way center Mitch Wahl lead the way. Also added is dark horse TJ Brodie, whose skating ability impresses all who sees.
2009 obviously just happened, but Tim Erikkson is looking like a future top 4 guy while interesting prospects like sniper Ryan Howse, play maker Henrick Bjorklund, and goalie Jani Ortio round out the group.

Sutter and the Flames have a philosophy of let the kids develop, there is no rushing players in the Flames system. This combined with the consistent round pick that the Flames make (9th one year, the the mid-20ís every other year) makes one think that because the Flames donít have instant draft gratification they fail at the draft... nothing could be further from the truth.

It was only a year ago that posters like you were laughing at the Flames 2004 draft Iím sure... suddenly, and when enough time passes, the Flames managed to pull 3 legit NHL players from it, and a possible 4th.

Itís easy to poke fun at the Flames system... if youíre totally ignorant of it.

Quote:
Every expert (except Sutter) now considers building through the draft as the only way to compete in a salary cap world
The Flames had roughly 16 players they drafted/developed play on their roster last season. They are doing okay.

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Old
07-29-2009, 06:20 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tretiak09 View Post
Itís a shame when posters like you just say things without knowing what theyíre talking about...

Sutter has been Calgaryís GM since 2003, and with his policy of bringing picks along slowly, and their draft position, so far the returns look excellent for the Sutterís draft picks. Just because they arenít hyped, or carry much fanfare doesnít mean they arenít good.

Sutterís first draft nabbed them a steal in Dion Phaneuf, a guy who it was obvious Sutter wanted above Suter and Coburn, regardless of where the drafted order shook up.

2004 Sutter managed to grab three players that were on the Flames roster, and will continue to be next year. Dustin Boyd, Adam Pardy and Brandon Prust. There is also Kris Chucko, who was a project at the time, and still is. He made major strides last season scoring 29 goals in the AHL. A darkhorse pick for an NHL job this year.

2005 is looking solid as well, Matt Pelech has future top 3 and maybe top 2 potential in him. There is also late round steal Brett Sutter, who looked poised in his call up last season, even scoring a goal. Interesting and still legit prospects from this draft include Matt Keetly and Gord Baldwin

2006 has Leland Irving, a guy who hasnít done anything but continue to prove heís a number goalie in the making, and 3rd round pick John Armstrong
2007 has the potential to be huge for the Flames... we all know about Mickal Backlund, a really talented player, who can play at both ends, and who dropped from consensus top ten pick the year before, to later in the round because he was injured. Smooth skating John Negrin and World Junior alum Keith Aulie round out this impressive group.
2008 was another good one for the Flames. Big goal scoring winger Greg Nemisz, who knows how to put the puck in the net, and two-way center Mitch Wahl lead the way. Also added is dark horse TJ Brodie, whose skating ability impresses all who sees.
2009 obviously just happened, but Tim Erikkson is looking like a future top 4 guy while interesting prospects like sniper Ryan Howse, play maker Henrick Bjorklund, and goalie Jani Ortio round out the group.

Sutter and the Flames have a philosophy of let the kids develop, there is no rushing players in the Flames system. This combined with the consistent round pick that the Flames make (9th one year, the the mid-20ís every other year) makes one think that because the Flames donít have instant draft gratification they fail at the draft... nothing could be further from the truth.

It was only a year ago that posters like you were laughing at the Flames 2004 draft Iím sure... suddenly, and when enough time passes, the Flames managed to pull 3 legit NHL players from it, and a possible 4th.

Itís easy to poke fun at the Flames system... if youíre totally ignorant of it.


The Flames had roughly 16 players they drafted/developed play on their roster last season. They are doing okay.
Great post.

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Old
07-29-2009, 06:28 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Behind Enemy Lines View Post
Sutter gets the job done while the Oil management talk about getting the job done. Unfortunately, we have seen two masterful salary dumps executed this summer by the Flamers. Offloading Vandemeer's bloated contract freed dollars and roster positioning for Jay Bo-Ho. This salary dump gets a bottom six overpayment player off the roster.

About the Flamers drafting, they have shown ability to be creative and make deals at the entry draft. Ultimately it is not about the number of picks a team has but rather the impact of those picks that translate into NHL roster players.

I hate, HATE, HATE to defend the Flamers but feel they have been strategic and effective this off season. Building its top end talent base while effectively acquiring cheap support talent and jettisoning overpaid support players. A commitment to improving a consistent playoff team. All the while by being covert and tightlipped so as not to create false expectations.

The Oil? "Hey look. We got the Bulin Wall!" Talk won't cut it for me anymore. This team - a consistent, mediocre and non-playoff team - has to demonstrate its ability to get things done and not simply hope for a massively underperforming roster to miraculously deliver results. /RANT
It is starting to look that way. I should be ashamed of myself for hoping it would be different this summer. At least Mactavish is gone and has been replaced by a good coach. That just might be enough to get me through another year.

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Old
07-29-2009, 07:12 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by tretiak09 View Post
2006 has Leland Irving, a guy who hasnít done anything but continue to prove heís a number goalie in the making, and 3rd round pick John Armstrong
2007 has the potential to be huge for the Flames... we all know about Mickal Backlund, a really talented player, who can play at both ends, and who dropped from consensus top ten pick the year before, to later in the round because he was injured. Smooth skating John Negrin and World Junior alum Keith Aulie round out this impressive group.
2008 was another good one for the Flames. Big goal scoring winger Greg Nemisz, who knows how to put the puck in the net, and two-way center Mitch Wahl lead the way. Also added is dark horse TJ Brodie, whose skating ability impresses all who sees.
2009 obviously just happened, but Tim Erikkson is looking like a future top 4 guy while interesting prospects like sniper Ryan Howse, play maker Henrick Bjorklund, and goalie Jani Ortio round out the group.
Prendergast, you working for the Flames now?

They're all puck wizards. You should see them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tretiak09 View Post
Sutter and the Flames have a philosophy of let the kids develop, there is no rushing players in the Flames system. This combined with the consistent round pick that the Flames make (9th one year, the the mid-20ís every other year) makes one think that because the Flames donít have instant draft gratification they fail at the draft... nothing could be further from the truth.
The Flames are a mature team, trading youth or picks for veterans (or a 2nd for cap space.) They don't have a compelling reason to promote young draft picks, and judging by the stats of players the players developed over the last five years playing for the Flames, outside of Phaneuf, there's not a great deal of reason to move them from the AHL. This year, you'll likely see players like Dustin Boyd take a larger role, and judging by his 2nd on the team worst -11, (tied with Phaneuf) they're likely to pay the same price Edmonton has.

Looking at the minus players on the Flames last season:
Greentree, Van Der Gulik, Roy, Negrin, Peters, Sutter, Cammalleri, Iginla, Primeau, Prust, Moss, Nystrom, Jokinen, Aucoin, Boyd

Looks like a few of the locally developed players (new ones esp.) are either playing against the top lines, or bleeding goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tretiak09 View Post
Itís easy to poke fun at the Flames system... if youíre totally ignorant of it.
Judging by the quotes above, it's easy even if you're not ignorant of it.

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Old
07-29-2009, 08:20 PM
  #85
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then sutter can trade phaneuf for heatley....a break out stralman wins the pp minutes therby making both burke and tambo look like idiots...

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07-29-2009, 08:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
Prendergast, you working for the Flames now?

They're all puck wizards. You should see them!



The Flames are a mature team, trading youth or picks for veterans (or a 2nd for cap space.) They don't have a compelling reason to promote young draft picks, and judging by the stats of players the players developed over the last five years playing for the Flames, outside of Phaneuf, there's not a great deal of reason to move them from the AHL. This year, you'll likely see players like Dustin Boyd take a larger role, and judging by his 2nd on the team worst -11, (tied with Phaneuf) they're likely to pay the same price Edmonton has.

Looking at the minus players on the Flames last season:
Greentree, Van Der Gulik, Roy, Negrin, Peters, Sutter, Cammalleri, Iginla, Primeau, Prust, Moss, Nystrom, Jokinen, Aucoin, Boyd

Looks like a few of the locally developed players (new ones esp.) are either playing against the top lines, or bleeding goals.



Judging by the quotes above, it's easy even if you're not ignorant of it.
The outlook in that post was a little too glowing for my liking, but I still feel that Leland Irving deserves a lot more credit than he gets. He came right out of juniors and stole Matt Keetley's job as an AHL starter, posted a .912 save percentage (just behind Enroth and Bernier's .914) I think he has solid starter potential, at least as a 1b kinda guy. He just stops pucks, all business, I think he'll go far.

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Old
07-29-2009, 09:28 PM
  #87
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I think this is what Desert Oil is getting at. He is saying that Burke is spewing a bunch of garbage to the media to justify his position. Once the media reports this everyone in TO jumps on the wagon because they beleive the **** that Burkie is saying because they think he is some kind of god. How does a palyer go from being one of their highly touted prospects a few months ago to being highly expendable and 10th on the depth chart?
That's exactly what I was saying. Stralman is still a good prospect no matter how badly Burke tries to run him into the ground. He performed well for the Leafs in every call up he got, which is all you ask of a young player. The reality of the trade is that Calgary got Stralman, Stuart, a late pick and dumped a bad contract for a second round pick. That is a great return. There is no way I would have expected Calgary to get that. I thought they would have to kick in a 3rd or a 4th to get anyone to eat the injury prone Primeau. I'm still shaking my head that the Oilers are stuck with contracts like Staios, Moreau, Pisani and Nilsson and Sutter has dumped Vandermeer and Primeau and got players back for them.

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Originally Posted by tretiak09 View Post
Itís a shame when posters like you just say things without knowing what theyíre talking about...
It's a simple mistake. It could easily be 2010.

Quote:
Sutter has been Calgaryís GM since 2003, and with his policy of bringing picks along slowly, and their draft position, so far the returns look excellent for the Sutterís draft picks. Just because they arenít hyped, or carry much fanfare doesnít mean they arenít good.
Part of the problem for the Flames is that when Sutter took over the system was pretty well burned to the ground. Button left him with nothing and was one of the worst general managers at the draft. I thought his strength was evaluating talent, but he was horrible and left the Flames system with nothing. Sutter's task was to build up the depth and fill holes which he has done a pretty good job at.

Quote:
A bunch of stuff about the Flames drafting
You made some good points but over rate some of the players. I think Sutter did a good job at restocking the minors league team and has had some players really come a lot further than anyone anticipated. The Flames system is terribly under rated and is better than they are given credit for. When you consider that the our once sure fire top line player only score 7 goals in the AHL last season, and Calgary's much maligned first rounder from the same draft year scored 29, it speaks volumes about the work of their development system. I have to give them credit for developing some pretty good prospects while we have done the opposite.

Quote:
Itís easy to poke fun at the Flames system... if youíre totally ignorant of it.
I've been saying the same thing and being chastised for the comments. If people take the time to take a look they would be surprised. I know I was.

Quote:
The Flames had roughly 16 players they drafted/developed play on their roster last season. They are doing okay.
Much better than anyone could have imagined when Sutter took over. Good on Calgary. I hope we can see our development guys improve upon that in the near future.

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07-29-2009, 10:48 PM
  #88
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this is why as much as i hate the Oilers, i can respect their fans. i've never seen this kind of honest, informed hockey talk on a Vancouver board about a rival team. it reminds me of the couple times i've been up to Edmonton to watch a Battle of Alberta and having really great hockey conversations with Oiler fans. and despite me being decked out in Flames gear, i never once felt threatened in Rexall Place. i doubt the same would happen in GM Place, everyone i know who has gone to see a game there in a Flames jersey has had to endure some altercation or another

kind of off topic, but i just wanted mention how refreshing it is to read a thread like this on a rival board. i find myself traveling to this section of HF more and more because of discussions like these

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07-30-2009, 12:10 AM
  #89
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I second those sentiments. Very balanced and well thought out arguments. I get a lot of great insight here. Helps keep me in check sometimes.

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09-28-2009, 11:10 PM
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs...rticle1304619/

And like that, poof. He's gone.

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Old
09-29-2009, 12:43 AM
  #91
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Is it one 1st round win in 20 years?

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09-29-2009, 01:25 AM
  #92
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So, that makes the overall transaction:

Toronto gets:


Wayne Primeau
Cgy '11 2nd

Calgary gets:

Colin Stuart
CBus '10 3rd
Tor '12 7th

From robbery to 'meh' in 2 months. Suddenly Stralman doesn't seem quite so shiny now that he's on his 3rd team since July.

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09-29-2009, 02:51 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by kruezer View Post
The outlook in that post was a little too glowing for my liking, but I still feel that Leland Irving deserves a lot more credit than he gets. He came right out of juniors and stole Matt Keetley's job as an AHL starter, posted a .912 save percentage (just behind Enroth and Bernier's .914) I think he has solid starter potential, at least as a 1b kinda guy. He just stops pucks, all business, I think he'll go far.
Irving's save percentage last season was 7th out of the top 7 goalies drafted in his draft year.

Are they all destined to go far?

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09-29-2009, 10:24 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
So, that makes the overall transaction:

Toronto gets:


Wayne Primeau
Cgy '11 2nd

Calgary gets:

Colin Stuart
CBus '10 3rd
Tor '12 7th

From robbery to 'meh' in 2 months. Suddenly Stralman doesn't seem quite so shiny now that he's on his 3rd team since July.
Pretty much, that is actually a pretty steep price for a 2nd round pick for Calgary. I keep laughing how these guys just throw away their 2nd rounders. But I guess they did need cap space.

I still think Stralman will turn into a Grebeshkov for the Blue guys.

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09-29-2009, 10:39 AM
  #95
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Pretty much, that is actually a pretty steep price for a 2nd round pick for Calgary. I keep laughing how these guys just throw away their 2nd rounders. But I guess they did need cap space.

I still think Stralman will turn into a Grebeshkov for the Blue guys.
Toronto ends up coming away looking like a winner in that trade. Still, at least calgary managed to mitigate their losses from a stupid trade.

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Old
09-29-2009, 10:49 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
This has now been confirmed on RDS:

http://www.rds.ca/hockey/chroniques/279256.html

Why in the world would Burke move a quality prospect like Stralman for a freaking overpaid fourth liner who has played a combined 85 games in 3 seasons? This is beyond bad by Burke.
Burke is notorious for moving quality prospects for 3/4th line grinders. He loves tearing up a teams future.

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