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Mats Sundin Retires: Press Conference 6:30 am EST

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Old
09-30-2009, 06:46 PM
  #151
beleaf101
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Originally Posted by Prototype View Post
Same way i feel it isn't that he wanted to leave toronto he basically got pushed away...
I feel the same way. To do a differant sport Roy Holliday is in the same spot with the jays. Both players Sundin and Holliday are pure class. The blame is on management.

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09-30-2009, 06:50 PM
  #152
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funny you remember him coming back from an injury because you seem awfully confused on how sundin played in the playoffs. honestly, did you even watch sundin in the playoffs or are you looking up stats to tell all you will listen that sundin wasn't as good as roberts? give me a break.
Yes ... I follow the leafs just by looking at the scoreboard

The stats only reinforce my belief that Sundin didn't give it his all for the Leafs.

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09-30-2009, 06:51 PM
  #153
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Pretty amazing how all the heat is on Sundin for not waiving his NTC, which was his right, by contract (but I guess it was just for show, right?). After 13 years on the team, he was just a commodity that could be bartered with and sold as a rental. Which Sundin didn't want, he wanted to stick with his boys and felt like he would abandon his team. He had in his contract that he couldn't be treated like cattle and used that right.

Management gets zero heat for not bringing together a competitive team for I don't know how long and giving Sundin the NTC if they had plans to trade him at the end of his career anyway, while the former captain receives all the heat for that debacle.

Exactly how would he had ended his career as a leaf, if the plan was to ship him away as a simple mercenary anyway? Ridiculous. Management showed no respect for Sundin wanting to end his contract for his team. All they saw was a trade chip, not a person.

There's two sides of a coin, but I guess it's too cumbersome to flip it and check the other side as well.
What a bunch of crap.

Sundin lied. Plain and simple. He made clear statements at the trade deadline which he later showed were not sincere. It's black and white fact.

Just count your lucky stars he didn't take that ludicrous 10 million a year offer.

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09-30-2009, 06:54 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
Yes ... I follow the leafs just by looking at the scoreboard

The stats only reinforce my belief that Sundin didn't give it his all for the Leafs.
You keep continuing to echo this knowing it's not true, you admit it's not true, you admit it's a theory that suggests he didn't perform as well. Roberts was a staple on Sundin's wing in the playoffs. You blame Sundin for the Leafs playoff loss to Carolina, but they were down in the series when he came back (which is a reason why he played) and he tied the game in the final minutes. Your whole "factual" basis for this is based on production and only production, when it's a discussion of heart. You've ignored the variables in these stats.

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Old
09-30-2009, 06:54 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Do we get to retire these discussions too? I hate reading that one of the best players in the game wasn't all that good.
Don't get me wrong ... Sundin was a great player, just not as great for us as he was for Sweden ... IMO

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09-30-2009, 06:57 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
Yes ... I follow the leafs just by looking at the scoreboard

The stats only reinforce my belief that Sundin didn't give it his all for the Leafs.
Funny, you seem to be using the stats to support a baseless argument.

Mats didn't give his all for the leafs???? LOL. I mean what can I even say to that except do you really follow hockey or did you jump in the Mats thread to regurgitate something Steve Simmons wrote about him?

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09-30-2009, 07:02 PM
  #157
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Don't get me wrong ... Sundin was a great player, just not as great for us as he was for Sweden ... IMO
Okay, which team would you describe as being the one Sundin carried on his back?

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09-30-2009, 07:04 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
Funny, you seem to be using the stats to support a baseless argument.

Mats didn't give his all for the leafs???? LOL. I mean what can I even say to that except do you really follow hockey or did you jump in the Mats thread to regurgitate something Steve Simmons wrote about him?
Sorry, I don't read Simmons. Nice to hear that you support him, thou

My argument is not baseless. It is based on observations .. just like yours is. The only difference is that mine is also supported by stats.

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09-30-2009, 07:08 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
Sorry, I don't read Simmons. Nice to hear that you support him, thou

My argument is not baseless. It is based on observations .. just like yours is. The only difference is that mine is also supported by stats.
My argument to you is that you never 'observed' Mats play in the playoffs and are using stats to support your now baseless argument.
To suggest that Mats didn't give 100% when he was on the ice for the Leafs means to me that you really didn't follow his career. I have, and I am just trying to help.
Don't you have some homework or something you should be doing?

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09-30-2009, 07:10 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Okay, which team would you describe as being the one Sundin carried on his back?
I really don't think he carried any team on his back. It's a team game. He was great for us ... just not as great as he could have been. Slap the Tre Kronor on his jersey instead of a Leaf and he would have been even better.

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09-30-2009, 07:17 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
My argument to you is that you never 'observed' Mats play in the playoffs and are using stats to support your now baseless argument.
Really? Nice argument! A question to you ... how would you know? Were you hanging out with me when Sundin was playing in the playoffs? I guess you must have not seen him either then ...

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To suggest that Mats didn't give 100% when he was on the ice for the Leafs means to me that you really didn't follow his career. I have, and I am just trying to help.
No, it just means that I have a different opinion than you. That's all. I don't see why are you getting so offended by it and resort to attacking me rather than discussing the subject at hand.

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Don't you have some homework or something you should be doing?
Actually, I don't. Funny statement coming from someone that probably hasn't completed my level of education.

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Old
09-30-2009, 07:19 PM
  #162
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Man reading this thread only reminds me that Leaf fans are among the worst fans in all of pro sports.

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Old
09-30-2009, 07:26 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
Really? Nice argument! A question to you ... how would you know? Were you hanging out with me when Sundin was playing in the playoffs? I guess you must have not seen him either then ...


No, it just means that I have a different opinion than you. That's all. I don't see why are you getting so offended by it and resort to attacking me rather than discussing the subject at hand.


Actually, I don't. Funny statement coming from someone that probably hasn't completed my level of education.
sorry to offend you, I'm attacking your opinion of a former long standing captain and phenomenal talent that was Mats Sundin, not you. Your arguments/statements were stats based and led me to believe (incorrectly i suppose) that anyone making them obviously didn't see him play. My mistake. Sorry you feel attacked, but your statements on Sundin's playoff play are so far off base that there really is no other way to debate them, they are laughable. Stick to your stats, I'll stick to having the pleasure of watching lead the team to numerous playoff round wins.
Glad your homeworks done. So is this 'debate'.

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Old
09-30-2009, 07:32 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
sorry to offend you, I'm attacking your opinion of a former long standing captain and phenomenal talent that was Mats Sundin, not you. Your arguments/statements were stats based and led me to believe (incorrectly i suppose) that anyone making them obviously didn't see him play. My mistake. Sorry you feel attacked, but your statements on Sundin's playoff play are so far off base that there really is no other way to debate them, they are laughable. Stick to your stats, I'll stick to having the pleasure of watching lead the team to numerous playoff round wins.
Glad your homeworks done. So is this 'debate'.
No offense taken. Attacking the person is a common fallacy used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims. And you do it once again ... bravo!

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09-30-2009, 07:35 PM
  #165
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Greatest Maple Leaf of all-time.

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Old
09-30-2009, 07:37 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
No offense taken. Attacking the person is a common fallacy used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims. And you do it once again ... bravo!
I'll write slower.
Your OPINION that Mats elevated his game more for team sweden than he did for the Leafs is baseless and laughable.
And how exactly is attacking the poster a common fallacy?? More homework for you.
Cheers.

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09-30-2009, 07:46 PM
  #167
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I'll write slower.
Your OPINION that Mats elevated his game more for team sweden than he did for the Leafs is baseless and laughable.
And how exactly is attacking the poster a common fallacy?? More homework for you.
Cheers.
You do it yet again ... it's pretty comical I suppose

Ad hominem ... look it up, and you'll know why it is a common fallacy ... I guess the homework is for you this time

So ... it is my opinion and because your opinion is different, mine is baseless and laughable? Got it!

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09-30-2009, 07:52 PM
  #168
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There are many times when Sundin carried this team on his back. To say that Sundin put in more effort for Team Sweden IS laughable. Sundin wore his heart on his sleeve and bled blue more than anybody.

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Old
09-30-2009, 08:03 PM
  #169
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I'd say there was a distinct difference in quality between the players Sundin often played with on the National Team and the mix of scrubs and semi-retirees he had to work with on the Leafs for most of his career.

Also, Mats thrived on big rinks. That is something a lot of people tend to forget.

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09-30-2009, 08:18 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
You do it yet again ... it's pretty comical I suppose

Ad hominem ... look it up, and you'll know why it is a common fallacy ... I guess the homework is for you this time

So ... it is my opinion and because your opinion is different, mine is baseless and laughable? Got it!
you got er' sport! everyone on here has varying opinions, that's what make the forum interesting. i'll support sundin and his leaf career against all comers.
so are you planning on going to the ACC when they raise Sundin's jersey to the rafters? Do you think Roberts will be there wondering why his isn't?
P.S Ad hominem, nice rebuttal. However, your usuage of the word fallacy in this sentence ' Attacking the person is a common fallacy used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims.' , needs some homework. Cheers!

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Old
09-30-2009, 08:22 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
you got er' sport! everyone on here has varying opinions, that's what make the forum interesting. i'll support sundin and his leaf career against all comers.
so are you planning on going to the ACC when they raise Sundin's jersey to the rafters? Do you think Roberts will be there wondering why his isn't?
I never said he didn't deserve to have his number honoured. I just think he was capable of more.

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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
P.S Ad hominem, nice rebuttal. However, your usuage of the word fallacy in this sentence ' Attacking the person is a common fallacy used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims.' , needs some homework. Cheers!
Please elaborate.

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Old
09-30-2009, 08:31 PM
  #172
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I never said he didn't deserve to have his number honoured. I just think he was capable of more.

Please elaborate.
Fair enough. Myself, I'm simply tired of reading the bashing on what was one of our all-time greats. Doesn't get any more simple than that.
read it now.
Attacking the person is a common misconception used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims.

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Old
09-30-2009, 08:35 PM
  #173
despotic
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Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
read it now.
Attacking the person is a common misconception used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims.
This is not what I said ... I said "attacking the person" i.e. "argument against the person" i.e. "ad hominem" is a common fallacy ...

The attacker has no valid arguments and is trying to divert attention by attacking the person instead. Anyway ... enough with the logic lesson ... I'm off

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09-30-2009, 08:38 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by despotic View Post
This is not what I said ... I said "attacking the person" i.e. "argument against the person" i.e. "ad hominem" is a common fallacy ...

The attacker has no valid arguments and is trying to divert attention by attacking the person instead. Anyway ... enough with the logic lesson ... I'm off
That sentence is a direct quote from you.
The Ad hominem was a good rebuttal.
cheers

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Old
09-30-2009, 08:44 PM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akiberg View Post
Fair enough. Myself, I'm simply tired of reading the bashing on what was one of our all-time greats. Doesn't get any more simple than that.
read it now.
Attacking the person is a common misconception used in debates whenever the attacker has no arguments to support his claims.
here here!!

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