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#1: Flyers at Hurricanes - October 2, 2009 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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Old
10-03-2009, 11:59 AM
  #851
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I don't share your opinion of Emery that he's a mediocre goalie. I know you and others have posted that he hasn't done much in his NHL career and have compared his numbers to Birons. IMO, there is zero issue with Emery's abilities and athletisim...he's an awesome goalie. In the past, he's been caught up in some drama (as we all know) off the ice. When it comes to his play on the ice -- Emery >>> Biron and it's not even close.

Also -- I know I'll get flamed for my comments above, and I'd like to note that I have no ill will towards Biron...I just didn't share the love that some others did. While he's a superb guy I don't think he's all that between the pipes and his loss is nothing to write home about. Sure his numbers on paper over the last couple years are nice, but as a viewer and a fan of the team...he made me uncomfortable.

With a better team this year to last, and Pronger anchoring the back end...Emery will be in the Vezina voting barring major injuries to the team.

I'm not getting ahead of myself -- book it.



Even in his best season, Emery wasn't close to putting up numbers to get him into the Vezina consideration. He would have to have a career year in order to get there...if nothing else, you should go knock on some wood because you're laying down a massive jinx.

If you're right. Emery's stay in Philly will be a short one.

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10-03-2009, 12:10 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Even in his best season, Emery wasn't close to putting up numbers to get him into the Vezina consideration. He would have to have a career year in order to get there...if nothing else, you should go knock on some wood because you're laying down a massive jinx.

If you're right. Emery's stay in Philly will be a short one.
Fair enough, and as much as I read and am into stats -- they aren't the be all, end all (for me).

I've knocked on my wood all night with the shutout, but I'll tap my coffee table just for you my friend.

*knock knock*


I think Emery will be re-signed...he's going to take his 2nd chance in the NHL and grab it by the balls and take the league by storm.

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10-03-2009, 12:18 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Fair enough, and as much as I read and am into stats -- they aren't the be all, end all (for me).

I've knocked on my wood all night with the shutout, but I'll tap my coffee table just for you my friend.

*knock knock*
They aren't the end-all-be-all, look no further than Chris Osgood. However, when you're talking about Vezina voting...they are. He'd have to put up at least a ~.925, ~35 wins, etc. to get into the neighborhood, and it's a significant leap in play from his career best .918 to that ballpark. Doesn't mean he can't do it -- anyone can have a monster year -- but I'm not sure his play to this point has indicated that he will.

If it "works out" I would expect the same level of play over the course of the season that we got from Biron...and, yeah, even that might be a contract problem for us given how much money we have tied up and the looming contracts of Giroux, Carter, and Gagne.

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I think Emery will be re-signed...he's going to take his 2nd chance in the NHL and grab it by the balls and take the league by storm.
If he puts up a Vezina competitive season, he'll be gone assuming he's not a professional athlete just for the fun of playing hockey. He'll be a 28 y/o goalie in his prime, coming off a season where he proved he can play at an elite level and having proven his doubters wrong (most likely).

Someone will give him a pretty hefty contract at that point. Hell, maybe it would be us, but you'd be talking about a significant reshuffling of our lineup short term, and a significant alteration to our long-term contract structure (not necessarily a bad thing, part of my problem with signing Emery is that it continue the process of putting off solidifying the most important position on the team).

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10-03-2009, 12:18 PM
  #854
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I'm hoping JvR gets his first goal tonight

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10-03-2009, 12:20 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by Pancho Lefty View Post
I'm hoping JvR gets his first goal tonight
It's not going to take long. Between PP time and the fact that he seems to create a few chances on his own each game...he'll pot one soon enough.

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10-03-2009, 12:26 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They aren't the end-all-be-all, look no further than Chris Osgood. However, when you're talking about Vezina voting...they are. He'd have to put up at least a ~.925, ~35 wins, etc. to get into the neighborhood, and it's a significant leap in play from his career best .918 to that ballpark. Doesn't mean he can't do it -- anyone can have a monster year -- but I'm not sure his play to this point has indicated that he will.
True enough. Like I said before, I think a lot of people are underestimating the value that Pronger brings to this hockey club. Both in anchoring the defense, the team...and the leadership. In the event that Emery gets 'a little loose', I haven't a shadow of a doubt that a guy like Pronger 'tightens things up'.

Sure it's been a very small sample size, but Emery had a great pre-season and stellar season opener, IMO. In his last season in Ottawa, it should be noted that he was injured and plagued by drama...both with the team and out in the general public. Sure some if it was warranted, but some of it wasn't.

We've been down that road before...right? I don't think we need to re-hash it. I trust we both know the others feelings on this, I know I do.

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If it "works out" I would expect the same level of play over the course of the season that we got from Biron...and, yeah, even that might be a contract problem for us given how much money we have tied up and the looming contracts of Giroux, Carter, and Gagne.
I think Gagne is as good as gone. Nothing to do with his play or his service, just the sad reality of the salary cap and up and coming youth.

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If he puts up a Vezina competitive season, he'll be gone assuming he's not a professional athlete just for the fun of playing hockey. He'll be a 28 y/o goalie in his prime, coming off a season where he proved he can play at an elite level and having proven his doubters wrong (most likely).

Someone will give him a pretty hefty contract at that point. Hell, maybe it would be us, but you'd be talking about a significant reshuffling of our lineup short term, and a significant alteration to our long-term contract structure (not necessarily a bad thing, part of my problem with signing Emery is that it continue the process of putting off solidifying the most important position on the team).
Let's hope Holmgren see's the light and locks him up before his value sky-rockets.

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10-03-2009, 12:30 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They aren't the end-all-be-all, look no further than Chris Osgood. However, when you're talking about Vezina voting...they are. He'd have to put up at least a ~.925, ~35 wins, etc. to get into the neighborhood, and it's a significant leap in play from his career best .918 to that ballpark. Doesn't mean he can't do it -- anyone can have a monster year -- but I'm not sure his play to this point has indicated that he will.

If it "works out" I would expect the same level of play over the course of the season that we got from Biron...and, yeah, even that might be a contract problem for us given how much money we have tied up and the looming contracts of Giroux, Carter, and Gagne.



If he puts up a Vezina competitive season, he'll be gone assuming he's not a professional athlete just for the fun of playing hockey. He'll be a 28 y/o goalie in his prime, coming off a season where he proved he can play at an elite level and having proven his doubters wrong (most likely).

Someone will give him a pretty hefty contract at that point. Hell, maybe it would be us, but you'd be talking about a significant reshuffling of our lineup short term, and a significant alteration to our long-term contract structure (not necessarily a bad thing, part of my problem with signing Emery is that it continue the process of putting off solidifying the most important position on the team).
Vezina-type numbers are possible if this defense stays healthy and the forwards do their part to chip in as they should on defense. However, as with all Cup teams, he has to peak at the right time, which is what I'm most concerned with. Can he keep it together all year and shine come playoff time.

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10-03-2009, 12:39 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
True enough. Like I said before, I think a lot of people are underestimating the value that Pronger brings to this hockey club. Both in anchoring the defense, the team...and the leadership. In the event that Emery gets 'a little loose', I haven't a shadow of a doubt that a guy like Pronger 'tightens things up'.
The addition of Pronger will help things considerably, but I have significant doubts that such things rub off on stats like SVPCT. Emery had a stellar team in front of him in Ottawa, and didn't cross the .920 threshold -- again, anyone can have a year where they do that for the first time.

I also need to see some serious improvement in overall team play before I'm going to champion Pronger solving all of this teams issues. Pronger is an exceptional puck mover, but our problem has been less puck-moving skill than our forwards not being there to receive the pass and help the D out -- the ever present gap issue. I mean, Timonen can pass with the best of 'em and we've seen him standing behind the net by himself with no one else on the screen...those things need to get fixed.

Quote:
Sure it's been a very small sample size, but Emery had a great pre-season and stellar season opener, IMO. In his last season in Ottawa, it should be noted that he was injured and plagued by drama...both with the team and out in the general public. Sure some if it was warranted, but some of it wasn't.
Biron had one of the most absurd stretches of games I've ever seen two years ago to start the year. Preseason and early season statistics need to be taken with a grain of salt. The game is too loose and it doesn't indicate future success very well at all (Pittsburgh has been rather awful each of the last two seasons at the start of the year...two years ago Ottawa was the best team in the league by far, and then fell apart).

While I'm completely receptive to some criticism being warranted and other not warranted...the fact of the matter is that Emery brought that upon himself by some of the choices he made; those choices made him a target and made it easy to place blame and condemnation on him. Hopefully he does a better job of avoiding that here.

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We've been down that road before...right? I don't think we need to re-hash it. I trust we both know the others feelings on this, I know I do.
It is what it is...and it's a concern until proven otherwise.

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I think Gagne is as good as gone. Nothing to do with his play or his service, just the sad reality of the salary cap and up and coming youth.
I think Gagne has to be the lower priority, but I also think he's a prime candidate for a hometown discount given his years here, and the fact that the team itself should be very good. Does he take it? Who knows, but I wouldn't write him off just yet.

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Let's hope Holmgren see's the light and locks him up before his value sky-rockets.
Eh, it takes two. If your Emery/Emery's agent and he's having a stellar year you have a large financial incentive to allow your value to sky-rocket.

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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Vezina-type numbers are possible if this defense stays healthy and the forwards do their part to chip in as they should on defense. However, as with all Cup teams, he has to peak at the right time, which is what I'm most concerned with. Can he keep it together all year and shine come playoff time.
You know what is going to be the biggest roadblock to Emery putting up numbers that high? The number of PKs we are going to be on...that will significantly erode his numbers over the course of the year if we're in the bottom of the league again on that statistic.

I just think a Vezina-level campaign is an unfair expectation of him going into the year...sets him up to fail to reach a bar. There are a few goalies in this league that should have that expectation on 'em, and Emery isn't one of 'em.

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10-03-2009, 12:41 PM
  #859
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Let's not forget a new goaltending coach, but hopefully is a great help. The goalie coach was the great common factor over the perceived failure of goaltending for the last 15 years. Everyone left here worse than when they got here.

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10-03-2009, 12:45 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Let's not forget a new goaltending coach, but hopefully is a great help. The goalie coach was the great common factor over the perceived failure of goaltending for the last 15 years. Everyone left here worse than when they got here.
Biron played over his career numbers in each of the last two seasons. We had multiple goalies put up numbers well above their talent level (Esche, Boucher, and, you could argue, Chechmanek). The problem with those three was they all had mental handicaps that hurt them in the long run.

I think the goalie coach is a bit of a red herring...if not a big one.

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10-03-2009, 01:01 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The addition of Pronger will help things considerably, but I have significant doubts that such things rub off on stats like SVPCT. Emery had a stellar team in front of him in Ottawa, and didn't cross the .920 threshold -- again, anyone can have a year where they do that for the first time.

I also need to see some serious improvement in overall team play before I'm going to champion Pronger solving all of this teams issues. Pronger is an exceptional puck mover, but our problem has been less puck-moving skill than our forwards not being there to receive the pass and help the D out -- the ever present gap issue. I mean, Timonen can pass with the best of 'em and we've seen him standing behind the net by himself with no one else on the screen...those things need to get fixed.
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Pronger to solve all of the teams problems, but I think a lot of hockey underestimate his importance and presence to a hockey club. He almost single handily carried the Oilers on his back a few season removed. We're stacked with talent in every position and he's the icing on the cake.

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Biron had one of the most absurd stretches of games I've ever seen two years ago to start the year. Preseason and early season statistics need to be taken with a grain of salt. The game is too loose and it doesn't indicate future success very well at all (Pittsburgh has been rather awful each of the last two seasons at the start of the year...two years ago Ottawa was the best team in the league by far, and then fell apart).
Correct, which is why I stated -- 'very small sample size'

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While I'm completely receptive to some criticism being warranted and other not warranted...the fact of the matter is that Emery brought that upon himself by some of the choices he made; those choices made him a target and made it easy to place blame and condemnation on him. Hopefully he does a better job of avoiding that here.

It is what it is...and it's a concern until proven otherwise.
Yes and no, he was made the scapegoat and rather than put water on the fire...he doused it in gas. He was a younger man then, and I'm willing to forgive him for his shortcomings. He's said he learned from his mistakes while being exiled to Russia, and I'm willing to forgive him for them until he screws up otherwise. We're all human, even our favourite/well liked athletes and we all make mistakes that we regret and hopefully (with any luck) learn from.

It's no secret I'm an Emery fan (ya think?) and I'm drinking the kool aide.

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I think Gagne has to be the lower priority, but I also think he's a prime candidate for a hometown discount given his years here, and the fact that the team itself should be very good. Does he take it? Who knows, but I wouldn't write him off just yet.
Assuming Gagne isn't looking for a big payday. Would he take a hometown discount, we'll find out soon enough. I don't mean to write him off either, and apologize if it came across as such.

If we're talking about Carter, Giroux and Gagne -- IMO it's a no brainer who the odd man out should be, with no disrespect.


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You know what is going to be the biggest roadblock to Emery putting up numbers that high? The number of PKs we are going to be on...that will significantly erode his numbers over the course of the year if we're in the bottom of the league again on that statistic.
No question it's a cause for concern, hopefully it levels off and we play with a little discipline.

*holds breath*

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I just think a Vezina-level campaign is an unfair expectation of him going into the year...sets him up to fail to reach a bar. There are a few goalies in this league that should have that expectation on 'em, and Emery isn't one of 'em.
To each their own. It's not necessarily just the goalie that wins the Vezina, it's the team in front of the goalie. I think we have a great team.

And yes, I'm a real optimistic ****er.


Anyways, I'm dropping offline. Have a nice day sir, thanks for the chat...always a pleasure. Enjoy the game tonight and see you around.

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10-03-2009, 03:08 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
to keep the erection down.


edit: Emery's first shutout.






too soon?


Good call this guy.

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10-03-2009, 06:16 PM
  #863
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Here ya go, posts regarding minutes...

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landi...856&feedID=695

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Flyers coach John Stevens says not to worry, however, and that JVR’s ice time will go up, and that Friday’s game was an aberration brought on by the team having to kill eight penalties. JVR played just 10 seconds on the penalty kill, while going nearly two minutes on the power play.

“His minutes [Friday] were very healthy for him,” Stevens said. “We spent over 14 minutes killing penalties, and that’s going to take ice time away from guys who don’t kill penalties and he’s one of those guys.

“We’re working him into the power play unit with Richie [Mike Richards] to get some extra ice time there. And then, being on the road with [Eric] Staal, he played 27 minutes last night. We’re looking for matchups with him and [Jeff] Carter and Richards and same thing on the back end.

“I wouldn’t read too much into ice times. [Claude] Giroux’s ice time was down too [10:48] because of that. We’re very happy with our forward group.”

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10-03-2009, 06:30 PM
  #864
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Here ya go, posts regarding minutes...

http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landi...856&feedID=695
What world has Stevens been living in where the Flyers don't usually have to kill a ton of penalties?

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10-03-2009, 06:31 PM
  #865
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What world has Stevens been living in where the Flyers don't usually have to kill a ton of penalties?
same world he's always been in

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10-03-2009, 10:28 PM
  #866
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Woohoo. Tim P. gave me props.
Quote:
Elias Sports Bureau noted that Emery was the fourth goalie -- not third -- to get a shutout in his Flyer debut. Robbie Moore got it first in 1979 (5-0 vs. Colorado Rockies). Funny this is, in October of 2003, most of the Philly media had Jeff Hackett as being No. 2 behind John Vanbiesbrouck for getting a shutout in his Flyer debut when both were actually behind Moore. The mistake was caught by readers this weekend when Emery got his shutout on Friday against Carolina. The powerof the internet, eh?
http://www.csnphilly.com/pages/landi...878&feedID=695

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10-03-2009, 10:31 PM
  #867
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We knew all along that you knew more than Timmy P. Good of him to give credit where credit is due though!

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10-03-2009, 10:36 PM
  #868
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^ Somewhere, I hope Robbie Moore appreciated the effort.

We can seat him next to Marv.

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10-03-2009, 11:03 PM
  #869
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^ Somewhere, I hope Robbie Moore appreciated the effort.

We can seat him next to Marv.
I'm thinking he should buy!

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