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10-04-2009, 01:08 PM
  #1
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use this thead to talk about the Leafs' 4th line

or...what little we've seen of it.

warning: this has Panic Button overtones

game 1 brought some promise, but after 2 early fights we never saw these guys (orr, rosehill, primeau) again. i love rosehill, and once he learns to stop punching helmets he'll be great. i didn't see much of them playing in the 2nd game. did they fair better? i'm not sure i have a solution, but i think we need a different mix. who on the Marlies could come up and show a little more energy on this energy / checking line?

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10-04-2009, 01:10 PM
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It's hard for these guys to get going when Wilson is playing 3 lines almost exclusively from the get-go.

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10-04-2009, 01:19 PM
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The easy solution is to move Wallin (who's been very good defensively but hasn't shown anything offensively) down to the 4th line with Primeau and Orr, which would make that a legitimate defensive and physical line that you could use regularly.

and then inject one of the kids (Bozak, Kulemin, Tlusty) onto the 3rd line with Mitchell and Stemp, which would give the 3rd line a little more offensive punch.

There's no need for the likes of Mayers or Rosehill on this team.

And, in fact, in a game where the other team doesn't have a heavyweight, Orr is very replaceable as well.

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10-04-2009, 01:19 PM
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I thought Primeau showed a few flashes of speed in the preseason....He may work out to be an effective shut down guy for 4th line and PK....other than that, ya, it looks like Wilson is going to use the top 3 lines mostly for now....

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10-04-2009, 01:20 PM
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Which 4th line are you talking about?

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10-04-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
The easy solution is to move Wallin (who's been very good defensively but hasn't shown anything offensively) down to the 4th line with Primeau and Orr, which would make that a legitimate defensive and physical line that you could use regularly.

and then inject one of the kids (Bozak, Kulemin, Tlusty) onto the 3rd line with Mitchell and Stemp, which would give the 3rd line a little more offensive punch.

There's no need for the likes of Mayers or Rosehill on this team.

And, in fact, in a game where the other team doesn't have a heavyweight, Orr is very replaceable as well.
i have no problem with Wallin playing on the 4th line. he's been pretty good for the most part in the 1st 2 games.

i wonder if we could use rosehill on the top 3 (even top 2) to create speed/space/toughness. the forward lines are primarily light Euro Players. he could help them (no doubt protect them).

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10-04-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hiimnew View Post
i have no problem with Wallin playing on the 4th line. he's been pretty good for the most part in the 1st 2 games.

i wonder if we could use rosehill on the top 3 (even top 2) to create speed/space/toughness. the forward lines are primarily light Euro Players. he could help them (no doubt protect them).
No *** way! It's like putting Belak on the top 2 lines. I don't think that Rosehill should even be here, let alone on the top 3 or 2 lines.

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10-04-2009, 01:31 PM
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No *** way! It's like putting Belak on the top 2 lines. I don't think that Rosehill should even be here, let alone on the top 3 or 2 lines.
you know you're right. instead we should double shift Jason Blake. he'll take all sorts of shots at the net. it'll be awesome. give him 27 min. a night. there you go.

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10-04-2009, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
The easy solution is to move Wallin (who's been very good defensively but hasn't shown anything offensively) down to the 4th line with Primeau and Orr, which would make that a legitimate defensive and physical line that you could use regularly.

and then inject one of the kids (Bozak, Kulemin, Tlusty) onto the 3rd line with Mitchell and Stemp, which would give the 3rd line a little more offensive punch.

There's no need for the likes of Mayers or Rosehill on this team.

And, in fact, in a game where the other team doesn't have a heavyweight, Orr is very replaceable as well.
Yep, I'd do it as well.....I see that being our 4th line before long.

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10-04-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hiimnew View Post
i have no problem with Wallin playing on the 4th line. he's been pretty good for the most part in the 1st 2 games.

i wonder if we could use rosehill on the top 3 (even top 2) to create speed/space/toughness. the forward lines are primarily light Euro Players. he could help them (no doubt protect them).
Ahhh...this is priceless.

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10-04-2009, 01:36 PM
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Primeau is so far the best faceoff man on the team, putting the 4th out there for a short shift just to win the faceoff and get some pressure makes sense to me.

5-1 in Washington, 7-2 in Montreal... Pretty good start for Primeau if you ask me. 12-3 overall so far in two games. not a lot of minutes but quality possesion... and last night the 4th line was even +\-, if anyone puts stock in that stat, in a 6-4 barn burner, and a line that didn't put a single + on the board, that's pretty alright.

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10-04-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
The easy solution is to move Wallin (who's been very good defensively but hasn't shown anything offensively) down to the 4th line with Primeau and Orr, which would make that a legitimate defensive and physical line that you could use regularly.

and then inject one of the kids (Bozak, Kulemin, Tlusty) onto the 3rd line with Mitchell and Stemp, which would give the 3rd line a little more offensive punch.

There's no need for the likes of Mayers or Rosehill on this team.

And, in fact, in a game where the other team doesn't have a heavyweight, Orr is very replaceable as well.
I disagree.

Wilson isn't using these guys enough. Orr is a damn good skater and he's responsible defensively. He's not going to hurt you by being a defensive liability on the ice.

Rosehill is a former Dman. He also skates well and likes to throw his weight around. Remember that hit against Jordan Stall? Put these guys out more and let them stir things up. So what if the other team doesn't have a fighter dressed...that just means these guys can go out and hammer guys with impunity. Big hits are momentum changers. It's the proven strategy of intimidation.

It's a hell of a lot more effective than having a "polite" third line that doesn't score eating up all of that ice time. WTF?

If I was Burke I'd grab Wilson by the throat and shake some sense into him. He brought these guys in here to intimidate. This was supposed to be our new identity: A tough, hard-hitting, miserable team to play against. So what does Wilson do? He barely plays his 4th line against Montreal, and sits Rosehill and Exelby against Washington.

The result: We've been out-hit over the first two games. So much for Burke's plan.

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10-04-2009, 01:52 PM
  #13
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I disagree.

Wilson isn't using these guys enough. Orr is a damn good skater and he's responsible defensively. He's not going to hurt you by being a defensive liability on the ice.
Really?

I was at the game last night, 19 rows from the ice and my impression was that he couldn't skate. Often his arms were swinging and he looked like he was perpetually falling forward, plus he didn't fight at all, I was disappointed.

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10-04-2009, 01:59 PM
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Really?

I was at the game last night, 19 rows from the ice and my impression was that he couldn't skate. Often his arms were swinging and he looked like he was perpetually falling forward, plus he didn't fight at all, I was disappointed.
unfortunately it takes two to fight...

well, he could've just dropped Erskine and been done with it I spose.

he's a pretty decent skater actually, no hands though, he saves those for fisticuffs.

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10-04-2009, 02:04 PM
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My ideal line up would be at this point:

Kulemin - Grabo - Poni (they worked really well together last season, even though Nikolai won't have the chance to show his offensive side (as he is depended on being the guy who does the dirty work)), still the line was impactful)
Hagman - Stajan - Blake (Hagman works well with anybody, Stajan and Blake have some chemistry.)
Stempniak - Mitchell - Stalberg (not really your typical 3rd line checking unit, but a 2-way line that can provide offensively)
Orr - Primeau - Mayers (my ideal 4th line really)

Send Wallin down, he is above average defensively but he has no offensive skills. I think Rosehill could take Viktor's spot on the 3rd line to add more physicality to the Leafs roster, and send Stalberg down to the Marlies.

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10-04-2009, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
I disagree.

Wilson isn't using these guys enough. Orr is a damn good skater and he's responsible defensively. He's not going to hurt you by being a defensive liability on the ice.
I don't hate Orr, and think he's fine, especially if two responsible and effecitve players like Primeau and Wallin are on his line.

But let's not exaggerate - Orr is getting the same kind of ice time that he got with the playoff-calibre rangers the past couple of years. There's no reason to think he deserves anymore.

Quote:
Rosehill is a former Dman. He also skates well and likes to throw his weight around. Remember that hit against Jordan Stall? Put these guys out more and let them stir things up. So what if the other team doesn't have a fighter dressed...that just means these guys can go out and hammer guys with impunity. Big hits are momentum changers. It's the proven strategy of intimidation.
not sure Rosehill is an NHL calibre player, really. it takes more than skating and toughness.

Quote:
It's a hell of a lot more effective than having a "polite" third line that doesn't score eating up all of that ice time. WTF?

If I was Burke I'd grab Wilson by the throat and shake some sense into him. He brought these guys in here to intimidate. This was supposed to be our new identity: A tough, hard-hitting, miserable team to play against. So what does Wilson do? He barely plays his 4th line against Montreal, and sits Rosehill and Exelby against Washington.

The result: We've been out-hit over the first two games. So much for Burke's plan.
The funny thing about hit stats - it's hard to outhit the other team when you're the team that has the puck most of the time. You don't throw hits when you have the puck.

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10-04-2009, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
I don't hate Orr, and think he's fine, especially if two responsible and effecitve players like Primeau and Wallin are on his line.

But let's not exaggerate - Orr is getting the same kind of ice time that he got with the playoff-calibre rangers the past couple of years. There's no reason to think he deserves anymore.



not sure Rosehill is an NHL calibre player, really. it takes more than skating and toughness.



The funny thing about hit stats - it's hard to outhit the other team when you're the team that has the puck most of the time. You don't throw hits when you have the puck.
You throw hits to knock the other guys off the puck, and to make them cough it up easier. You punish guys in the corner in order to come out with the puck. Intimidating physical play leads to giveaways and takeaways, two areas in which we were owned last night.

My point is: We aren't going to outskill many (if any) teams. Why play that way? Burke built a team that is supposed to be physical and miserable to play against. Truculence and pugnacity, remember? It's only been two games, but so far they have mostly looked just like last year's team. Wilson either sits our toughest forwards, or doesn't give them much ice time while seemingly playing Wallin (who had no points, no hits, no shots, no takeaways, and was a minus 1) to death. On the blueline he sits Exelby, the most devastating open-ice hitter we have.

Truculence and pugnacity? It would be nice to have a coach and GM on the same page.

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10-04-2009, 05:04 PM
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you know you're right. instead we should double shift Jason Blake. he'll take all sorts of shots at the net. it'll be awesome. give him 27 min. a night. there you go.
I guess you aren't aware we have a farm team? Some of them could potentially be a viable option in the top 9.

Not sure if Wallin dropping down to 4th is a good idea or not. He seems to be holding his line together.

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10-04-2009, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
My ideal line up would be at this point:

Kulemin - Grabo - Poni (they worked really well together last season, even though Nikolai won't have the chance to show his offensive side (as he is depended on being the guy who does the dirty work)), still the line was impactful)
Hagman - Stajan - Blake (Hagman works well with anybody, Stajan and Blake have some chemistry.)
Stempniak - Mitchell - Stalberg (not really your typical 3rd line checking unit, but a 2-way line that can provide offensively)
Orr - Primeau - Mayers (my ideal 4th line really)

Send Wallin down, he is above average defensively but he has no offensive skills. I think Rosehill could take Viktor's spot on the 3rd line to add more physicality to the Leafs roster, and send Stalberg down to the Marlies.
Stalberg's been the Leafs' feel good story so far, I don't really want to send him down to make way for a fighter. Rosehill can take Mayers' spot, he does nothing (except take pointless penalties).

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10-04-2009, 05:51 PM
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You throw hits to knock the other guys off the puck, and to make them cough it up easier. You punish guys in the corner in order to come out with the puck. Intimidating physical play leads to giveaways and takeaways, two areas in which we were owned last night.

My point is: We aren't going to outskill many (if any) teams. Why play that way? Burke built a team that is supposed to be physical and miserable to play against. Truculence and pugnacity, remember? It's only been two games, but so far they have mostly looked just like last year's team. Wilson either sits our toughest forwards, or doesn't give them much ice time while seemingly playing Wallin (who had no points, no hits, no shots, no takeaways, and was a minus 1) to death. On the blueline he sits Exelby, the most devastating open-ice hitter we have.

Truculence and pugnacity? It would be nice to have a coach and GM on the same page.

I too was hoping this team would grind it out a little more out of the gate. I think what's nice is to at least know this team could, if directed too, be one of the harder hitting squads out there.

I think it's important to realize that once this defense settles down, the hits will come.

I agree though, I like Exelby in the line-up, regaardless how many posters would argue. I think he's had a rough start though, and needed a bit of a wake up call.

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10-04-2009, 05:52 PM
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Stalberg's been the Leafs' feel good story so far, I don't really want to send him down to make way for a fighter. Rosehill can take Mayers' spot, he does nothing (except take pointless penalties).
well, it should have been fighting major last night, too bad Erskine played it smart.

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10-04-2009, 06:25 PM
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The easy solution is to move Wallin (who's been very good defensively but hasn't shown anything offensively) down to the 4th line with Primeau and Orr, which would make that a legitimate defensive and physical line that you could use regularly.

and then inject one of the kids (Bozak, Kulemin, Tlusty) onto the 3rd line with Mitchell and Stemp, which would give the 3rd line a little more offensive punch.

There's no need for the likes of Mayers or Rosehill on this team.

And, in fact, in a game where the other team doesn't have a heavyweight, Orr is very replaceable as well.

+1 +1 +1 +1


Wallin has looked really good defensively and has some upsides that would help the 4th line.

Putting Bozak on the third line with Mitchell and Stempniak would be a solid move as well and would allow for better match ups against our opponents.

Personally I don't like Stalberg on the same line as Blake... it would be 100x better to see him on a line with Bozak especially for building chemistry down the road might not happen for a while tho.

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10-04-2009, 06:44 PM
  #23
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What I find interesting is that on a Brian Burke team he prefers two offensive lines and two defensive/checking/utility players line..

A distinct Top 6 and Bottom 6 ..

Many posters want to turn our current 3rd line into 3rd scoring unit when Burke appears to want to make it more into a checking line.

The 3rd line is a work-in-progress but heading in different directions it appears from what Fans want and Burke plans with it.

The 4th line is a perfect Burke line and one of which that plays little to no part in Leafs success. A goon fighter making $1 mil that plays 5 minutes a night... A big PK center that plays 7 mins TOI and a utility player in Mayers that gets less than 10 mins and as a line one that the coach keeps planted on the bench most of the game.

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10-04-2009, 06:49 PM
  #24
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I think there is room for Rosehill and Orr, Primeau could be switched for Bozak and Bozak centres the third line and wallin the fourth. I hate mayers though

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10-04-2009, 06:57 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by bleeney View Post
You throw hits to knock the other guys off the puck, and to make them cough it up easier. You punish guys in the corner in order to come out with the puck. Intimidating physical play leads to giveaways and takeaways, two areas in which we were owned last night.

My point is: We aren't going to outskill many (if any) teams. Why play that way? Burke built a team that is supposed to be physical and miserable to play against. Truculence and pugnacity, remember? It's only been two games, but so far they have mostly looked just like last year's team. Wilson either sits our toughest forwards, or doesn't give them much ice time while seemingly playing Wallin (who had no points, no hits, no shots, no takeaways, and was a minus 1) to death. On the blueline he sits Exelby, the most devastating open-ice hitter we have.

Truculence and pugnacity? It would be nice to have a coach and GM on the same page.
Burke built the back-end and 4th line to be physical and miserable to play against. As it stands, nobody in the top 9 outside John Mitchell is a legit physical presence (Poni rarely uses his size, and Stalberg is more of a finesse guy). The team, while better on paper, still suffers from the same short-coming as always: team mentality.

Nobody on this team is thinking on the same page. Use last night for example. Beauchemin tries to be aggressive, misses his check, and creates an odd-man rush for a goal. I know that there's a lot of new faces, and it will take more than 3 weeks to learn to read each other, but on a play where the D-man is being aggressive, you need the high forward to be busting his butt to get back. Is Beauchemin to blame for that play? Definitely, he has to get his man on that play. But it's also the high forward's assignment to get back on that play too.

For this team to go anywhere, they need to be on the same page, and that means they can't miss defensive assignments all night long, and they certainly cannot give up 5 breakaways to a team that will score 75% of the time.

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