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Old
10-04-2009, 04:03 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Hackett View Post
Subban is not even an option to me this season unless another 2 d-men go down.

I wouldnt rush this guy as he's still very raw defensively. Its not worth the risk of damaging him in the long term as I consider him the habs best prospect.


as bad as mab is defensively (or any other veteran that gainey looks at), he wont be nearly as mistake prone and overwhelmed as pk would be. You are essentially putting him directly into the fire from the chl to the nhl. I wouldn't recommend that route of development for most d-men.

One step at a time for pk, use the depth on defense to let subban develop at his own pace. The jump from chl to ahl is big enough for a d-man.
You only highlighted the first part of my message there you sneaky person. In the second part, I've mentioned Weber and Carle as well.

I disagree about the Subban theory as we've seen plenty of young guys play in the NHL in recent years and doing quite well. Look in Toronto with Schenn or in Buffalo last night in Tyler Myers (Subban was supperior to Myers at the WJC, let's not forget). There are plenty of other examples showing the same. It seems like only in Montreal do we seem to want to over-protect our young players. If he's the best candidate, call him up and see how he responds. If it doesn't work, send him down and call up someone else.

I hate seeing a veteran player make big mistakes as it irritates me to no end. That's why I hated seeing Huet allowing the weak goals as I preferred seeing a rookie like Price or Halak do that. Same goes for Bergeron, Chelios, Brisebois or Dandenault. Give the young guys a chance, give them the opportunity and the experience and maybe, just maybe, one of them will take the opportunity and run with it, surprising even the pundits.

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10-04-2009, 04:12 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Souray's defensively play here = MAB's.

Will MAB score 20+ goals, **** no, but will he play as many minutes as Souray ? I hope the **** not.
Right, except Souray would hit people and Bergeron isn't exactly much of a physical player. In terms of play I think Bergeron could actually be useful, don't get me wrong, but the Souray comparison is a bit off.

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10-04-2009, 04:23 PM
  #78
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I love how people disses rookies 'cause they are so raw and then praises the fact that we have experienced guys on the blue line as slow and as average they can be.....If experience is the key, well phone Brisebois then....he's REALLY experienced....

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10-04-2009, 04:38 PM
  #79
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I love how people disses rookies 'cause they are so raw and then praises the fact that we have experienced guys on the blue line as slow and as average they can be.....If experience is the key, well phone Brisebois then....he's REALLY experienced....
I would rather have Brisebois or Dandenault for the 7th D spot then one of Weber or Carle, I don't want a rookie that needs to improve their defensive play called up to sit in the box. The problem now is that we have to replace 2 D's, it's really too bad Henry is out for another month, he'd be a good guy to have as our 7th D, someone that's not hurt by sitting.

I like the idea of Weber getting some games in and I expect him to before the injuries hit, I just don't like the idea of him being a regular for 4 months, since we have had some real bad luck with rushing our young guys. But I guess we are going to see how it works out soon enough.

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I agree rushing him would be bad, but he'll get a lot more experience up here then down there. I think he's more NHL readythen Max Pac is to be honest. Besides, is there really an "ideal" time to bring up a plater? Most times you throw them in and see what they can do, if they're not ready you send them back down for more experience.
I'm sure that will be the case, if Weber can't handle it they will just send him down, going to be intesting for sure how he does, if he does well it should be great for his development, the concern is what happens if he struggles, how it will affect his development.

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10-04-2009, 05:09 PM
  #80
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I love how so many people on these boards believe that Weber is already a better d-man then Bergeron, even though he's played like 7 NHL games. And second of all, that he'll obviously score goals by the boatload on the PP. So far Weber has shown me the inability to consistently get the puck through on the PP. I watch every game, and i watch it closely. The guy needs more seasoning, and a whole year with Guy Boucher will work wonders for him. Bergeron is a PROVEN scorer on the PP. Proven. That's what we need. If we're going to win games, our PP needs to be clicking. I think Bergeron prowess on the PP outweighs his defense liabilities. And really, what's a year at 1.5 million or less going to hurt? This is a no-brainer in my opinion.

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10-04-2009, 05:13 PM
  #81
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It's not even Weber vs Bergeron, really. You need 7 D's you can trust, especially when you are on road trips. What happens if we suffer ANOTHER injury? Then BOTH Weber and Carle are playing.

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10-04-2009, 05:14 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
I love how so many people on these boards believe that Weber is already a better d-man then Bergeron, even though he's played like 7 NHL games. And second of all, that he'll obviously score goals by the boatload on the PP. So far Weber has shown me the inability to consistently get the puck through on the PP. I watch every game, and i watch it closely. The guy needs more seasoning, and a whole year with Guy Boucher will work wonders for him. Bergeron is a PROVEN scorer on the PP. Proven. That's what we need. If we're going to win games, our PP needs to be clicking. I think Bergeron prowess on the PP outweighs his defense liabilities. And really, what's a year at 1.5 million or less going to hurt? This is a no-brainer in my opinion.
Well Weber had not played much, for a rookie, mistakes are bound to happen. Guess we'll see how he will contribute for us now since he's been called up.

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10-04-2009, 05:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
I love how so many people on these boards believe that Weber is already a better d-man then Bergeron, even though he's played like 7 NHL games. And second of all, that he'll obviously score goals by the boatload on the PP. So far Weber has shown me the inability to consistently get the puck through on the PP. I watch every game, and i watch it closely. The guy needs more seasoning, and a whole year with Guy Boucher will work wonders for him. Bergeron is a PROVEN scorer on the PP. Proven. That's what we need. If we're going to win games, our PP needs to be clicking. I think Bergeron prowess on the PP outweighs his defense liabilities. And really, what's a year at 1.5 million or less going to hurt? This is a no-brainer in my opinion.
Pretty good post.

I'd personally let Weber play out the next 3 games just to see how he handles it, if he looks ineffective obviously we'll have to go down a different route IMO.

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10-04-2009, 05:21 PM
  #84
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Is there a reason this awesome dman is unemployed?

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10-04-2009, 05:35 PM
  #85
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Every GM is racist against quebecers!

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10-04-2009, 05:36 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
Right, except Souray would hit people and Bergeron isn't exactly much of a physical player. In terms of play I think Bergeron could actually be useful, don't get me wrong, but the Souray comparison is a bit off.
He hits... just not a lot. He seems to go for the hip check if he does throw a hit.

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Is there a reason this awesome dman is unemployed?
He's a UFA cause no one needed his type of d for a 7thd, or he doesn't want to be one...


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10-04-2009, 05:43 PM
  #87
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He hits... just not a lot. He seems to go for the hip check if he does throw a hit.



He's a UFA cause no one needed his type of d for a 7thd, or he doesn't want to be one...

so no one needed his services but we do.
isn't there a better option?

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10-04-2009, 05:43 PM
  #88
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One year, one million.

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10-04-2009, 05:47 PM
  #89
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If we bring up Weber and/or Carle we could use MAB in Hamilton.

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10-04-2009, 05:58 PM
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If we bring up Weber and/or Carle we could use MAB in Hamilton.
The issue is we don't want one of Carle/Weber to sit for extensive amounts of time in the press box... They need to play in order to progress.

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10-04-2009, 06:00 PM
  #91
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Hundreds of pro scouts advised their GMs not to sign Marc-Andre Bergeron? Care to share how it is that you know that?

Perhaps the reason he is currently unsigned is because his agent miscalculated the market? At 28 years old, coming off a solid season, Bergeron might have been adamant that he was signing a mult-year deal and refused offers of one or two years holding out for a longer pact, only to find no chair left to sit on when the music stopped.

To pretend that he's strictly unsigned because "hundreds of pro-scouts...advised their GM's not to pursue MAB" is you trying to fabricate facts to forward your own agenda. The reality is, you don't have a clue why he's unsigned, and you've fabricated your own conclusion.

His point totals and plus rating, skating and shooting skills, not to mention a career that saw him as a top four defenseman on a Cup Finalist indicate that these imaginary pro scouts you're talking about would have to be idiotic to arrive at the conclusion. To suggest - as somone did in this thread - that he's not an NHL calibre defenseman is the same thing as saying "I don't really follow the NHL."

Why not share your opinon about the player and make your own argument instead of pretending your opinon is somehow backed up by a legion of NHL scouts? Do you really think people won't notice your just making it up?
I don't know the reasons why you are riding on such a high-horse and are in such a highly condescending and easily aggravated state but please let me rephrase the message in my previous post that seemed to set you off into a bizarre tizzy....

Thirty NHL GM's didn't feel that Marc-Andre Bergeron and his asking price were worth seriously pursuing based on the reports of their pro-scouting staffs and what they (the GM) have observed watching him play over the years. If you think he hasn't signed an NHL contract or attended an NHL camp solely because of his asking price, you and your high-horse are galloping around in a fantasy world.

Regarding MAB being a top-4 D-man on a Cup finalist four seasons ago....whoopee-fricking-doo!!!! Do you know how many players have regressed in the last four years and whose roles and value have decreased? Also, his +5 stat from last year is a very arbitrary stat to use in qualifying his defence. Markov was minus-2 last year....does that mean MAB is better defensively than Markov? Furthermore MAB was -16 two years ago (again an arbitrary stat but I just wanted to highlight the inconsistency in usefulness of this stat). And if you want to use his performance in Edmonton as an example of his value, it's funny that Oilers fans booed him out of the city and was a healthy scratch the entire playoffs for Anaheim two years ago.

MAB is a D-man with a lot of good assets (pretty much all offensive) but the holes in his game offset a lot of those assets (hence his currently unemployed state). Should the Habs pursue him? There are good arguments for signing him (great on PP, low-risk contract etc) but there are also a lot of reasons why not to (terrible defensively, had no pre-season, we already have some in-house possibilities). Personally, I'd prefer to give Weber a chance. Weber has fared well in spot duty (including baptism by fire versus powerhouse Bruins in last year's playoffs ), he's been working hard on his game and was part of the core group who went to the recent team-building retreat. If coaching/management want the players who missed the cut to take the team unity message serious, they may wish to practice what they preach and show confidence in those players by giving them the first opportunity to fill a void.....afterall, it's a two-way street.

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10-04-2009, 06:00 PM
  #92
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Réjean Tremblay will probably write some BS about signing a Quebecer 'ala' MAB and take a dump on Bob Gainey, again.

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10-04-2009, 06:04 PM
  #93
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The issue is we don't want one of Carle/Weber to sit for extensive amounts of time in the press box... They need to play in order to progress.
I understand, if they are brought up it's because they will play.
I was just saying that it will open a hole in Hamilton. If the Habs really are talking to MAB I'm sure it's for a 2-way contract.

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10-04-2009, 06:13 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
I love how so many people on these boards believe that Weber is already a better d-man then Bergeron, even though he's played like 7 NHL games. And second of all, that he'll obviously score goals by the boatload on the PP. So far Weber has shown me the inability to consistently get the puck through on the PP. I watch every game, and i watch it closely. The guy needs more seasoning, and a whole year with Guy Boucher will work wonders for him. Bergeron is a PROVEN scorer on the PP. Proven. That's what we need. If we're going to win games, our PP needs to be clicking. I think Bergeron prowess on the PP outweighs his defense liabilities. And really, what's a year at 1.5 million or less going to hurt? This is a no-brainer in my opinion.
I don't see anyone here saying that Weber is an established NHL'er or that he has proven that he's a better d-man than Bergeron. What I do see however is some people saying that if you're going to get a defenseman who has been passed by all 30 teams due to the fact that he actually can't play defense and is too much of a liability back there, then why not use a rookie who could surprise? And if one doesn't, we have two more down in Hamilton who could get their shot at showing what they can do! That I did read here...

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Is there a reason this awesome dman is unemployed?
Hehehe... well said.

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10-04-2009, 06:15 PM
  #95
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I don't know the reasons why you are riding on such a high-horse and are in such a highly condescending and easily aggravated state but please let me rephrase the message in my previous post that seemed to set you off into a bizarre tizzy....

Thirty NHL GM's didn't feel that Marc-Andre Bergeron and his asking price were worth seriously pursuing based on the reports of their pro-scouting staffs and what they (the GM) have observed watching him play over the years. If you think he hasn't signed an NHL contract or attended an NHL camp solely because of his asking price, you and your high-horse are galloping around in a fantasy world.

Regarding MAB being a top-4 D-man on a Cup finalist four seasons ago....whoopee-fricking-doo!!!! Do you know how many players have regressed in the last four years and whose roles and value have decreased? Also, his +5 stat from last year is a very arbitrary stat to use in qualifying his defence. Markov was minus-2 last year....does that mean MAB is better defensively than Markov? Furthermore MAB was -16 two years ago (again an arbitrary stat but I just wanted to highlight the inconsistency in usefulness of this stat). And if you want to use his performance in Edmonton as an example of his value, it's funny that Oilers fans booed him out of the city and was a healthy scratch the entire playoffs for Anaheim two years ago.

MAB is a D-man with a lot of good assets (pretty much all offensive) but the holes in his game offset a lot of those assets (hence his currently unemployed state). Should the Habs pursue him? There are good arguments for signing him (great on PP, low-risk contract etc) but there are also a lot of reasons why not to (terrible defensively, had no pre-season, we already have some in-house possibilities). Personally, I'd prefer to give Weber a chance. Weber has fared well in spot duty (including baptism by fire versus powerhouse Bruins in last year's playoffs ), he's been working hard on his game and was part of the core group who went to the recent team-building retreat. If coaching/management want the players who missed the cut to take the team unity message serious, they may wish to practice what they preach and show confidence in those players by giving them the first opportunity to fill a void.....afterall, it's a two-way street.

I agree with your entire post !
MAB assets are offensive and we need to stop the 40+ shots per game, don't know how he is going to improve this. I saw a few posts back MAB-Gill. Could you just imagine how much time we would spend in our zone ?
The first paragraph was gold, pure gold.

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10-04-2009, 06:34 PM
  #96
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E-Clown has it as an e4.

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10-04-2009, 06:36 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
I don't know the reasons why you are riding on such a high-horse and are in such a highly condescending and easily aggravated state but please let me rephrase the message in my previous post that seemed to set you off into a bizarre tizzy....

Thirty NHL GM's didn't feel that Marc-Andre Bergeron and his asking price were worth seriously pursuing based on the reports of their pro-scouting staffs and what they (the GM) have observed watching him play over the years. If you think he hasn't signed an NHL contract or attended an NHL camp solely because of his asking price, you and your high-horse are galloping around in a fantasy world.

Regarding MAB being a top-4 D-man on a Cup finalist four seasons ago....whoopee-fricking-doo!!!! Do you know how many players have regressed in the last four years and whose roles and value have decreased? Also, his +5 stat from last year is a very arbitrary stat to use in qualifying his defence. Markov was minus-2 last year....does that mean MAB is better defensively than Markov? Furthermore MAB was -16 two years ago (again an arbitrary stat but I just wanted to highlight the inconsistency in usefulness of this stat). And if you want to use his performance in Edmonton as an example of his value, it's funny that Oilers fans booed him out of the city and was a healthy scratch the entire playoffs for Anaheim two years ago.

MAB is a D-man with a lot of good assets (pretty much all offensive) but the holes in his game offset a lot of those assets (hence his currently unemployed state). Should the Habs pursue him? There are good arguments for signing him (great on PP, low-risk contract etc) but there are also a lot of reasons why not to (terrible defensively, had no pre-season, we already have some in-house possibilities). Personally, I'd prefer to give Weber a chance. Weber has fared well in spot duty (including baptism by fire versus powerhouse Bruins in last year's playoffs ), he's been working hard on his game and was part of the core group who went to the recent team-building retreat. If coaching/management want the players who missed the cut to take the team unity message serious, they may wish to practice what they preach and show confidence in those players by giving them the first opportunity to fill a void.....afterall, it's a two-way street.

I agree with both of you guys on many points, both were good posts. To me, both players (Weber, Bergeron) bring similar things to the table: Basically in a nutshell, great PP potential and questionable D. I believe the best move for Weber's future as a Canadien, and for the success of the club this year, is to bring in Bergeron. Look at it from Gainey's point of view: He doesn't rush a potentially solid d-man in Weber, and lets him grow with Subban in Hamilton. He brings in Bergeron who has a history of PP success instead. Either he succeeds, and Gainey looks like a genius; or he fails, where no one will really blame Gainey because he brought in the guy with the best scoring potential out there not through trade. Look at Schneider last year, he was probably one of the top reasons we got into the playoffs, and defense was definitely not his strongest suit. This is also Montreal, where missing the playoffs is not an option. Anyone who thinks that Gilroy and Del Zotto are smart moves and the Rangers will make the playoffs this year is on crack. Sather is a bad GM. Gainey is smart; he doesn't take risks, and he usually finds the tonic to get us over the top (i.e. into the playoffs). All that said, Gainey will try out Weber first, and will probably not sign anyone if the PP plays up to snuff.

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10-04-2009, 07:18 PM
  #98
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He's pretty much a PP specialist. And I don't care if anyone says otherwise..he's horrible in his own zone.
Sounds good to me. With the parity in the bottom top eight in East this year the pp is going to be the difference. Just look at last year when we squeaked into the playoffs by litteraly a goal or two.

Right now I'm just hoping Hamrlik and Spacek are still shaking the cobwebs though...

They SHOULD be able pp quarterbacks. I'm hoping they are shaking off a few cobwebs right now and that once they get going we'll be ok.

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10-04-2009, 08:20 PM
  #99
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If you think he hasn't signed an NHL contract or attended an NHL camp solely because of his asking price, you and your high-horse are galloping around in a fantasy world.
After reading this, there's really no point to continue to read this post. Once again, you are passing off your OPINON as FACT. If you don't think Bergeron is on the sidelines because he, or his agent, or possibly both, mis-read the market this summer, I think you're sorely mistaken.

Let me ask you a question: Do you really think Bergeron didn't receive a single contract offer all summer?

He scored 14 goals last year, as a defenseman, on a defense-first team. He posted 32 points. Even for a second, do you believe that not one of the GMs didn't offer him a contract? You really don't think asking price was an issue? Honestly? Cause I've read your posts here for a long time, and I know you're not one of the dumb ones.


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Old
10-04-2009, 08:26 PM
  #100
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If it doesn't work out with Weber or Carle, I guess we can't be wrong with signing him if he is asking less then 1.5 millions. He deserves a chance...

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