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2009/10 - Lines Discussion - (ES/PP/PK) - Part II

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Old
10-02-2009, 05:24 AM
  #226
Garbage Goal
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You need some with Giroux than can finish and be aware of his sick passing skills. JVR seems to be the guy, he knows how to use his size and has a nose for the net. I'm just curious if he can keep it up for a full season, giroux had the benefit of a really long run the memorial cup the year before. powe, while having great speed just can't finish.
I wouldn't say that Powe can't finish. More like he can't start, sort-of-speak. If Giroux or someone gives him a good opportunity around the net he'll probably put it in the net. Powe is money with penalty shots too. We never tried him in the shootout, but since penalty shots are basically the same as shootouts I would imagine he isn't bad at that either.

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+1 what he said... Skill aside, if you look at all the intangibles something is definately missing. Between both of them they have less than a year experience in the NHL. Hell, they are just barely old enough to go out for a beer after the game. They are boys playing against men. If you don't have someone on that line who will throw their weight around and protect them if necessary, then you can expect to see one or both on the IR for a long time this season. Powe is not that guy.
What the last two posters said. This is a really, really stupid argument that needs to just die.

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10-02-2009, 08:45 AM
  #227
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so i guess thsi thread should be locked now? well, atleast once the 1st game of the season starts....

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10-02-2009, 12:56 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
This is a silly flyers mentality. These guys are professional hockey players. They don't need a big daddy looking over their shoulder to make sure they are ok. You have to remember that these guys will probably have Pronger back on the blue-line too. Powe drops the gloves too and is a hard little bstard. They just need the puck. They create their own space and giroux is going to give JVR at least 20 goals this season, and probably 10-15 to powe minimum. I said it here first.

I have no problem with powe warming the spot for maroon either. I really believe that maroon can be a damn good player in this league. Very much a knuble player.
Giroux has proven he can take a hit, but nobody is unsusceptible to cheap shots. Look at what happened to Giroux last year. Do you think that happens if the flyers had an enforcer that people where afraid of? I agree Pronger will make a difference

Powe isnt that calming influence that a veteran bring to a line. Skill level JVR is ready for the NHL, but there is a learning curve for rookies. Having a veteran helps a young player develop. Gagne started out on a line with Primeau. If you go through a lot of the young superstars in the NHL your going to find that they played on a line with a veteran. Some of the young players even lived in some of the veterans houses their first year.

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10-02-2009, 06:09 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
so i guess thsi thread should be locked now? well, atleast once the 1st game of the season starts....
I think we should just change the title to "line discussion 09-10" because lots of people enjoy talking about line combinations throughout the year.

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10-02-2009, 07:39 PM
  #230
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What's the lineup that you guys are icing tomorrow night?

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10-02-2009, 07:56 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Basement Cat View Post
What's the lineup that you guys are icing tomorrow night?
Probably the same as tonight

Maybe some minor changes. Probably Asham will replace someone else. Maybe Cote might get a chance to get his face punched in by some Devil for the first time of the year.

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10-03-2009, 10:30 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Banger View Post
he's comparable but their games are different. JVR is obviously huge (6'-3"), has great hands, very accurate strong shot, very good skater, good playmaker, solid defensively and can play all situations. I think Giroux will be an excellent distributor and a good scorer while JVR will be a very good scorer and good distributor. I think they will complement each other well because they both have very good vision and instincts to get into open spaces.

JVR kind of reminds me of Carter with better passing ability and vision.

Thanks, Banger. Jeff Carter with better passing ability and vision... yah... a team could do worse for a rookie winger. Look forward to some hard-fought games this year.

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10-03-2009, 11:31 AM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Zippo View Post
Thanks, Banger. Jeff Carter with better passing ability and vision... yah... a team could do worse for a rookie winger. Look forward to some hard-fought games this year.
Carter has a better wrist shot as well.

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10-04-2009, 09:03 AM
  #234
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Kudos to Stevens and Holmgren. I know it's just two games, but between Holmgren kicking Jones off the island and signing Betts, and Stevens sitting Cote and Asham and having the team prepared -- it's a pretty badass start to our season.

We've got 4 road points and looked pretty good in getting them. The 4th line is a pleasure to watch, where in years past it simply wasn't. The last two games, I feel comfortable and confident no matter which line is on the ice. Yourselves?

On the back end, Pronger and Timonen are PK-heaven while Carle has stepped his level of play and Syvret has filled the 6th spot quite nicely.

Emery -- well what can I say. You all know my love affair by now. Sugar Ray so sweet~

It's beautiful to be a fan of the O&B, and we lot's to look forward to this season.

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10-04-2009, 09:20 AM
  #235
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Any word on if Asham is maybe nursing a small injury?

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10-04-2009, 09:31 AM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Shoeny View Post
Giroux has proven he can take a hit, but nobody is unsusceptible to cheap shots. Look at what happened to Giroux last year. Do you think that happens if the flyers had an enforcer that people where afraid of? I agree Pronger will make a difference

Powe isnt that calming influence that a veteran bring to a line. Skill level JVR is ready for the NHL, but there is a learning curve for rookies. Having a veteran helps a young player develop. Gagne started out on a line with Primeau. If you go through a lot of the young superstars in the NHL your going to find that they played on a line with a veteran. Some of the young players even lived in some of the veterans houses their first year.
You know what, I understand that point. Its brings up a thought I had yesterday....Not sure if anyone else mentioned this or not, and I have no idea what he is going to decide at this point, but WOW would Shanahan look nice with Giroux/JVR.....Veteran to teach the kids, has the skill to captialize on Giroux's playmaking, and is just one more guy, like Pronger, that has been there and won it all!

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10-04-2009, 09:33 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Kudos to Stevens and Holmgren. I know it's just two games, but between Holmgren kicking Jones off the island and signing Betts, and Stevens sitting Cote and Asham and having the team prepared -- it's a pretty badass start to our season.

We've got 4 road points and looked pretty good in getting them. The 4th line is a pleasure to watch, where in years past it simply wasn't. The last two games, I feel comfortable and confident no matter which line is on the ice. Yourselves?

On the back end, Pronger and Timonen are PK-heaven while Carle has stepped his level of play and Syvret has filled the 6th spot quite nicely.

Emery -- well what can I say. You all know my love affair by now. Sugar Ray so sweet~

It's beautiful to be a fan of the O&B, and we lot's to look forward to this season.
Well said Opus!!

Not quite sure I am ready to give Steven's much credit yet, although as I said somewhere else, I do like the forward lines he has put together....and he has actually gone 2 full games without messing with them! HAHA Lets see what happens when other teams are really testing us and the coach NEEDS to make a difference.

I am LOVING that 4th line though....I respect what Asham and Cote bring to the team, but Carcillo/Betts/Lappy seem to really have some chemistry together....This cant be discounted. Detroit and NJ's cup runs, the 4th lines were very important (Maltby/Draper/McCarty) (Peluso/Holik/McKay)

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10-04-2009, 09:33 AM
  #238
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Yeah Shanny would be good, but he is so slow

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10-05-2009, 01:08 PM
  #239
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PP Units

So, with JVR being on the team, we now have 7 forwards that should all absolutely be getting PP time. I thought for sure, that the season would begin with Giroux as a regular on one of the units and JVR having to earn his PP time with good ES play and then a chance on the PP here and there.

I'm shocked that they've had JVR jump right in as a regular while Giroux rides the pine...I mean, considering how much Giroux proved by the end of last year, while JVR has yet to prove much of anything. And also the fact that Giroux had to earn his opportunity to get regular PP time last year...it wasn't just given to him right off the bat. I expected the same to be the case with JVR in spite of his very high draft position.

All that said, I'm fine with JVR on the PP. However, I'm not fine with Giroux not being on it, nor am I fine with any one of Briere, Richards, Gagne, Hartnell, or Carter not being on it. Each of those guys is too good at what they can do on the PP to not be getting regular PP time. Some shuffling will have to be in order, but any negatives that come with the shuffling are outweighed by the positive of all 7 of those guys getting regular duty.

The most logical thing to do is to go back to putting Richards on the point on one of the units. He can play the point with one of Kimmo or Pronger, and then Carle and Coburn can split time on the remaining point spot on the 2nd unit alongside Kimmo or Pronger. So, you wind up with something like this...

Gagne-Giroux-JVR
Timonen-Richards

Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Pronger-Carle/Coburn

I'd actually lean towards giving Carle that spot outright over Coburn, as I believe Carle has more offense in him and I'm anxious to see him settle in on the PP and contribute regularly. Coburn can be great for some one-timers, but I don't think he's very creative offensively, overall. In short, I think Carle can make more happen on the PP than Coburn can. Still though, the best thing to do would probably be to split time between Carle and Coburn for that spot early in the season, and then one of them will likely emerge as the better fit.

Of course, as soon as there is an injury to any of the aforementioned players, figuring out the PP units becomes much easier. But for now, with everyone healthy, I think they need to do what I've suggested...it's too much of a waste not to.

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Old
10-05-2009, 01:13 PM
  #240
mikedifr
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Yeah Shanny would be good, but he is so slow
Yeah, but he is smart, and the speed of Giroux and JVR would make up for it. Who knows, it was just a thought.

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10-05-2009, 01:31 PM
  #241
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if it aint broke don' fix it

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10-05-2009, 01:35 PM
  #242
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
So, with JVR being on the team, we now have 7 forwards that should all absolutely be getting PP time. I thought for sure, that the season would begin with Giroux as a regular on one of the units and JVR having to earn his PP time with good ES play and then a chance on the PP here and there.

I'm shocked that they've had JVR jump right in as a regular while Giroux rides the pine...I mean, considering how much Giroux proved by the end of last year, while JVR has yet to prove much of anything. And also the fact that Giroux had to earn his opportunity to get regular PP time last year...it wasn't just given to him right off the bat. I expected the same to be the case with JVR in spite of his very high draft position.

All that said, I'm fine with JVR on the PP. However, I'm not fine with Giroux not being on it, nor am I fine with any one of Briere, Richards, Gagne, Hartnell, or Carter not being on it. Each of those guys is too good at what they can do on the PP to not be getting regular PP time. Some shuffling will have to be in order, but any negatives that come with the shuffling are outweighed by the positive of all 7 of those guys getting regular duty.

The most logical thing to do is to go back to putting Richards on the point on one of the units. He can play the point with one of Kimmo or Pronger, and then Carle and Coburn can split time on the remaining point spot on the 2nd unit alongside Kimmo or Pronger. So, you wind up with something like this...

Gagne-Giroux-JVR
Timonen-Richards

Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Pronger-Carle/Coburn

I'd actually lean towards giving Carle that spot outright over Coburn, as I believe Carle has more offense in him and I'm anxious to see him settle in on the PP and contribute regularly. Coburn can be great for some one-timers, but I don't think he's very creative offensively, overall. In short, I think Carle can make more happen on the PP than Coburn can. Still though, the best thing to do would probably be to split time between Carle and Coburn for that spot early in the season, and then one of them will likely emerge as the better fit.

Of course, as soon as there is an injury to any of the aforementioned players, figuring out the PP units becomes much easier. But for now, with everyone healthy, I think they need to do what I've suggested...it's too much of a waste not to.
I agree, I mentioned this in another thread....I dont think that is a reflection of Grioux, I just think they want JVR's size in there on the 2nd unit. I would love to see Richards back at the point. It has made us one of the top PP's the past couple season, why change?

Your combinations are fine, but I would even try going back to what we had last year subbing Hartnell for Knuble. I also like to change it up a bit on the PP, right now they jsut seem to be running out the top 2 lines as the top PP units.

1a and 1b

Briere Hartnell Gagne (I list Hartnell in the middle cause he is in front of the net)
Timonen/Pronger Richards

Giroux Carter JVR
Pronger/Timonen Carle

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10-05-2009, 01:36 PM
  #243
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He will get his time, it's only been two games so far

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Old
10-05-2009, 01:36 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
if it aint broke don' fix it
Which is why you go back to Richie on the point

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Old
10-05-2009, 01:39 PM
  #245
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I'm curious, would anyone here be opposed to trading Asham?

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10-05-2009, 01:41 PM
  #246
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Hartnell-Briere-Gagne
Pronger-Richards

JvR-Carter-Giroux
Timonen-Carle

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10-05-2009, 01:46 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I agree, I mentioned this in another thread....I dont think that is a reflection of Grioux, I just think they want JVR's size in there on the 2nd unit.
I agree about the size thing, I had that thought too and failed to mention it in my post. It is understandable to want that size out there for the other unit...and I have to say, JVR has been handling himself pretty well on the physical side of things. He seems to still have a lot of filling out to do, so it's nice to see him already handling himself as well as he is. I thought he'd be struggling with that more.

You know though, the size thing doesn't completely point to the reasoning when you look at the fact that Pyorala got a couple of minutes of PP time over these first couple games, and he was getting it in JVR's place...Gagne-Richards-Pyorala rather than Gagne-Richards-JVR. Although, I can't recall exactly when that was happening...perhaps it was towards the end of the NJ game when the game was already decided and they just wanted to see how Pyorala would do.

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10-05-2009, 01:47 PM
  #248
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I'm curious, would anyone here be opposed to trading Asham?
Certainly not, but he is good to have around as a replacement in case of injuries....You know at some point Gagne will probably miss a few games, maybe Pyro since he is like 10 pounds, JVR might hit a wall and need to sit for a couple games. I rather have someone other than Cote that can step in if someone is out 5 games or more. I guess you could always move Lappy or Carillo up and throw Cote there, but whatever....Unless we need to or he requests it and/or becomes a problem, why bother?

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Old
10-05-2009, 01:49 PM
  #249
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Is it really that big of a deal to have a separate thread discussing the PP units?? I really don't get the excessive mergering of threads around here sometimes.

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10-05-2009, 01:50 PM
  #250
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You guys are never satisfied. Stevens wants to keep the defense pairing together even on the PP. It helps with line rotations and this is a deep team that will benefit greatly from having 3 steady pairs of defense. Putting Richards back on the point on the power play is not necessary anymore because we have Timonen and Pronger, both of whom are able to QB a PP. Carle and Coburn both have offensive talent and make us more reliable in case of counterattack. Even though we were successful with Richards on the point last year, there is definitely a risk taken when four forwards are placed on the PP.

Everybody who is complaining about Giroux and JVR not getting enough ice time must be forgetting that neither of them has ever played a full NHL season. Giroux will get regular ES time, a decent amount of SH time, and PP time here and there. JVR has never played an 82 game season, so keeping his ice time low is a good idea. These PP units will be perfectly fine and can be interchanged:

Gagne - Richards - JVR/Giroux
Timonen - Coburn

Hartnell - Carter - Briere
Pronger - Carle

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