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2009/10 - Lines Discussion - (ES/PP/PK) - Part II

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Old
10-05-2009, 02:02 PM
  #251
claude boivin lives
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Originally Posted by Helter Skelter View Post
Gagne - Richards - JVR/Giroux
Timonen - Coburn

Hartnell - Carter - Briere
Pronger - Carle
I wouldn't be terribly opposed to that as a plan B, but I'd still prefer to see what I suggested as plan A. We know that this team can be extremely successful on the PP with Richards manning the point. The excess of quality forwards right now makes it an obvious choice to do so again. Whether the d-pairings stay in perfect rotation or not is a very minor issue.

And besides, I'm really not sure that they'd bother splitting JVR's time with Giroux on that unit if they are happy enough with JVR's performance. His size will be a big factor in his placement there, whether he is playing particularly well or not. If they haven't given Giroux any PP time through these first couple games, it's easier for me to see it continuing that way than not. And I just think all 7 of those guys should get regular time, especially since there is such a great and easy way to go about making that happen. Also, if JVR's time should be cut anywhere over this newly long season, it should be at ES.

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10-05-2009, 02:08 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If Powe isn't careful he'll just be keeping the spot warm for Maroon by postseason.

I like Powe and all, but I'd rather see him take Carcillo's spot when/if Maroon is ready to go at some point this season.

It's a shame Pat got that injury. At least it gives him a chance to work some more on his skating where it can't become that big of an issue.

Of course the lines would need to be reworked. Don't need Maroon and JVR on the same line.
that would be great and it wouldn't shock me in the least and the timing of his injury was unfortunate although I don't think it would have made a difference in the end.

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10-05-2009, 02:20 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm curious, would anyone here be opposed to trading Asham?
I'm opposed. He's a perfect bubble player...he's a veteran, he's cheap (600K), he's tough and he can play in the top 9 if an injury occurs. Plus, what are you really going to get for a guy like him? A 3rd or 4th round pick? No one is going to give you anything great for an older veteran on an expiring contract. He's worth more as insurance and to the Flyers than what they'd get in return (i.e. a lousy draft pick).

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10-05-2009, 03:36 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm curious, would anyone here be opposed to trading Asham?
Depends... are you just trying to dump him or is it part of some package to improve? I don't think he's essential, but as has been said, he's a nice guy to have around since he can step into a lot of spots on the lineup and do a solid job.

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10-05-2009, 03:42 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I'm curious, would anyone here be opposed to trading Asham?
To serve what purpose?

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10-05-2009, 04:13 PM
  #256
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To serve what purpose?
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:

-Due to an excess of deserving forwards he's been a healthy scratch. The only foreseeable way that he'll get playing time is by rotating in and out of the lineup with Powe (personally I think Asham would be the better choice over Powe). When teams have an excessive amount of players they usually either send them to the minors or trade them to a place where the player will get to play.

-He's on the last year of his contract and he's unlikely to be re-signed so why carry him with us this year if he's not going to be on the roster full-time?

-It would free up contract and cap space while fetching something in return all for a player that we don't need anymore. I'd imagine Asham could fetch at least a second and we're short on picks so why not?

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10-05-2009, 04:20 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:

-Due to an excess of deserving forwards he's been a healthy scratch. The only foreseeable way that he'll get playing time is by rotating in and out of the lineup with Powe (personally I think Asham would be the better choice over Powe). When teams have an excessive amount of players they usually either send them to the minors or trade them to a place where the player will get to play.

-He's on the last year of his contract and he's unlikely to be re-signed so why carry him with us this year if he's not going to be on the roster full-time?

-It would free up contract and cap space while fetching something in return all for a player that we don't need anymore. I'd imagine Asham could fetch at least a second and we're short on picks so why not?
The question is if the benefit of salary cap space (which is really the only benefit to the team that you listed) outweighs the importance of having 13 good NHL forwards available. Injuries always happen and in the case that a Gagne or Briere goes down even for a few games we would be sorry that we don't have Asham around.

Asham is not going to return a 2nd... and the cap space we gain from dealing him is worth nothing if we don't do something with it. If we moved him the only need we would have to fill would be the one we just created by trading Asham.

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10-05-2009, 04:21 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:

-Due to an excess of deserving forwards he's been a healthy scratch. The only foreseeable way that he'll get playing time is by rotating in and out of the lineup with Powe (personally I think Asham would be the better choice over Powe). When teams have an excessive amount of players they usually either send them to the minors or trade them to a place where the player will get to play.

-He's on the last year of his contract and he's unlikely to be re-signed so why carry him with us this year if he's not going to be on the roster full-time?

-It would free up contract and cap space while fetching something in return all for a player that we don't need anymore. I'd imagine Asham could fetch at least a second and we're short on picks so why not?
1. Its great to have a 13th forward as good as Asham

2. See number 1

3. We have lots of cap room thanks to Jones being gone, once an injury sets in we will be thankful for Asham. If we could actually get a 2nd, then sure, but in reality we wont get anything that high.

The only reason to trade him would be to do him service, and find him somewhere to play

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10-05-2009, 04:26 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:

-Due to an excess of deserving forwards he's been a healthy scratch. The only foreseeable way that he'll get playing time is by rotating in and out of the lineup with Powe (personally I think Asham would be the better choice over Powe). When teams have an excessive amount of players they usually either send them to the minors or trade them to a place where the player will get to play.

-He's on the last year of his contract and he's unlikely to be re-signed so why carry him with us this year if he's not going to be on the roster full-time?

-It would free up contract and cap space while fetching something in return all for a player that we don't need anymore. I'd imagine Asham could fetch at least a second and we're short on picks so why not?
There's no way he's getting the Flyers a 2nd. The only way I'd deal him is if we could land a very good, cheap fighter that can play hockey. I don't keep up on the goons that much but that's the only thing that may make sense because you can free up Cotes roster spot as well. I don't think that's going to happen so they'll keep him and he'll be great veteran insurance.

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10-05-2009, 04:59 PM
  #260
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Seems people forgot the part where I said this:
Quote:
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:
Why wouldn't Asham fetch a second? Carcillo fetched Upshall and a second. Pronger only cost a couple of late firsts and Lupul. That's not the point anyway. The point is you could get something in return for him that's worth it.

Quote:
1. Its great to have a 13th forward as good as Asham
Maroon, Nodl, Kalinski, Cote, and many others are ready, willing, and just as able as Asham to fill that spot. He's unnecessary. Asham is a wasted player and a wasted contract as a 13th forward.

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2. See number 1
He's on the last year of his contract and unlikely to be re-signed.

Quote:
3. We have lots of cap room thanks to Jones being gone, once an injury sets in we will be thankful for Asham. If we could actually get a 2nd, then sure, but in reality we wont get anything that high.
I don't see how a late second is out of reach, especially when a guy like Carcillo can fetch an early second. It doesn't matter though. you get something for a player that's being wasted and likely won't be here next year. Cote is a perfectly fine 13th forward and in case of injuries Maroon, Nodl, Kalinski, and others are very able to be called up and fill a spot. Every bit of cap space helps in a cap world.

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The only reason to trade him would be to do him service, and find him somewhere to play
Another perfectly good reason to trade him.
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The only way I'd deal him is if we could land a very good, cheap fighter that can play hockey.
We already have multiple guys just like that. Carcillo, Lappy, etc. Heck, even Asham can be that guy.

Quote:
Asham is not going to return a 2nd... and the cap space we gain from dealing him is worth nothing if we don't do something with it. If we moved him the only need we would have to fill would be the one we just created by trading Asham.
What need is that? The need for a wasted forward? Cote is a 13th forward and in case of injuries that's what guys like Maroon, Kalinski, and Nodl are for.

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10-05-2009, 05:04 PM
  #261
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Asham for a 2nd is VERY unlikely.

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10-05-2009, 05:06 PM
  #262
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Asham for a 2nd is VERY unlikely.
My last post kind of covered this.

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10-05-2009, 05:11 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Seems people forgot the part where I said this:


Why wouldn't Asham fetch a second? Carcillo fetched Upshall and a second. Pronger only cost a couple of late firsts and Lupul. That's not the point anyway. The point is you could get something in return for him that's worth it.
That was a bad trade by a Holmgren desperate for cap space. and Carcillo is younger.


Quote:
Maroon, Nodl, Kalinski, Cote, and many others are ready, willing, and just as able as Asham to fill that spot. He's unnecessary. Asham is a wasted player and a wasted contract as a 13th forward.
Well Maroon, Nodl, and kalinski all make more than Asham so, wave goodbye to "saving" money by trading him


Quote:
He's on the last year of his contract and unlikely to be re-signed.
So? He's still a great forward for 4th line, and can fill in on the 3rd if needed


I don't see how a late second is out of reach, especially when a guy like Carcillo can fetch an early second.
How is a Flyers 2nd rounder early?

It doesn't matter though. you get something for a player that's being wasted and likely won't be here next year. Cote is a perfectly fine 13th forward
Cote can barely play a 4th line shift, let alone fill in on the 3rd.
Quote:
and in case of injuries Maroon, Nodl, Kalinski, and others are very able to be called up and fill a spot. Every bit of cap space helps in a cap world
Refer to previous point re cap hits of the youngsters
Quote:


What need is that? The need for a wasted forward? Cote is a 13th forward and in case of injuries that's what guys like Maroon, Kalinski, and Nodl are for.

For all we know Asham could be nursing an injury

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10-05-2009, 05:55 PM
  #264
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Asham is not worth a 2nd round pick. Dominic Moore got a 2nd and he had scored 40 points and provided sound defense. Jamal Mayers got a 3rd.

At best I can see:

Arron Asham + 3rd Round Pick for 2nd Round Pick and 5th Round Pick

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10-05-2009, 06:03 PM
  #265
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That was a bad trade by a Holmgren desperate for cap space. and Carcillo is younger.
Most people would agree that if you took either the 2nd or Upshall out of that trade then it would be decent. Carcillo may be younger, but when we acquired him he was leading the league in PIM and, as of now, Asham is at least just as good as Carcillo.

So what if it was a bad trade by Holmgrem? There aren't other GMs out there just as dumb as susceptible to mistakes as Holmgrem or in the same situation we were in last year?
Quote:
Well Maroon, Nodl, and kalinski all make more than Asham so, wave goodbye to "saving" money by trading him
The saving money point was just a throw-in point. It really has very little to do with trading Asham. Besides, even if you want to focus on saving money, guys like Maroon, Nodl, and Kalinski would only be necessary when injuries arise so until then you are saving money.

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So? He's still a great forward for 4th line, and can fill in on the 3rd if needed
He's a great 4th line player on the last year of his contract that is being wasted as a 13th/14th forward.
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How is a Flyers 2nd rounder early?
For some reason when I typed that I thought it was Phoenix trading the 2nd rounder. My bad. Still, Carcillo fetched a late 2nd rounder.

Quote:
Cote can barely play a 4th line shift, let alone fill in on the 3rd.
Like I said before, in the case that one of JVR, Giroux, or Powe get injured a guy like Maroon, Nodl, or Kalinski would be fine. Cote is the perfect 13th forward though.

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Refer to previous point re cap hits of the youngsters
Refer to what I said before.

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For all we know Asham could be nursing an injury
Does it really matter? Stevens himself has stated that, at best, Asham will be a sub-in for Powe on the 3rd line. Asham could be nursing an injury, but it's doubtful. Even if he is it doesn't matter. We are in excess of forwards and due to the fact that the organization likes Powe better as of now Asham is the excess and thus wasted. Combine that with the fact that he likely won't be here next year anyway then you have yourself a very tradable player.
Quote:
Asham is not worth a 2nd round pick. Dominic Moore got a 2nd and he had scored 40 points and provided sound defense. Jamal Mayers got a 3rd.

At best I can see:

Arron Asham + 3rd Round Pick for 2nd Round Pick and 5th Round Pick


It's like some of you guys don't listen at all.

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10-05-2009, 06:23 PM
  #266
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Do you think Powe is worth a 2nd?


It's not that Asham isn't a good player, but that 4th line players have limited value no matter what the intangibles. Brad May was filled with intangibles and he only got a 5th. Jamal Mayers has equal intangibles and is a better scorer capable of playing on the 3rd line full time. He only got a 3rd. So maybe Asham+5th could get a third, but I doubt it, and certainly not a 2nd.

Phoenix never wanted to trade Carcillo, it was only that the opportunity presented itself. That is a large part of why we overpaid.

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10-05-2009, 08:02 PM
  #267
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Do you think Powe is worth a 2nd?


It's not that Asham isn't a good player, but that 4th line players have limited value no matter what the intangibles. Brad May was filled with intangibles and he only got a 5th. Jamal Mayers has equal intangibles and is a better scorer capable of playing on the 3rd line full time. He only got a 3rd. So maybe Asham+5th could get a third, but I doubt it, and certainly not a 2nd.

Phoenix never wanted to trade Carcillo, it was only that the opportunity presented itself. That is a large part of why we overpaid
I don't think Powe is worth a second, but Powe is not as good as Asham either. I don't mean to be insulting, but remember when I said this:

Quote:
Why wouldn't Asham fetch a second? Carcillo fetched Upshall and a second. Pronger only cost a couple of late firsts and Lupul. That's not the point anyway. The point is you could get something in return for him that's worth it.
Besides, picks tend to be vastly overrated here on HF. When we traded two firsts for Pronger it was suddenly "Oh man, those Flyers just traded away their future" by a lot of other fans. GMs trade picks away all the time. Even if we can't get a 2nd or a 3rd or trade him in a package. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is that we could trade an excess player that won't be here next year for something decent.

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10-05-2009, 08:23 PM
  #268
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We arent going to trade Asham "just because." If at the deadline some team out west(we better not trade him to the east) comes and offeres us a 2nd or 3rd, we'd do it but they probably wont.

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10-05-2009, 08:53 PM
  #269
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We arent going to trade Asham "just because." If at the deadline some team out west(we better not trade him to the east) comes and offeres us a 2nd or 3rd, we'd do it but they probably wont.
Like I've said twice before, I never said that we are going to trade Asham. I just asked if people were open to the possibility. Why not trade Asham "just because"? He's excess, simple as that. When you have excess you cut it. Asham isn't exactly a game-breaker so he's neither important to keep or important to keep away from East teams (he's pretty much a 4th/fringe 3rd liner).

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10-05-2009, 09:06 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Like I've said twice before, I never said that we are going to trade Asham. I just asked if people were open to the possibility. Why not trade Asham "just because"? He's excess, simple as that. When you have excess you cut it. Asham isn't exactly a game-breaker so he's neither important to keep or important to keep away from East teams (he's pretty much a 4th/fringe 3rd liner).
If it was last year, obviously we would trim the fat but we have almost 2 million in cap space thanks to candy randy being gone. I would much rather keep him as a 13th forward. I dont wan't Nodl playing 4th line again, though Kalinski I do like.

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10-05-2009, 09:10 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Like I've said twice before, I never said that we are going to trade Asham. I just asked if people were open to the possibility. Why not trade Asham "just because"? He's excess, simple as that. When you have excess you cut it. Asham isn't exactly a game-breaker so he's neither important to keep or important to keep away from East teams (he's pretty much a 4th/fringe 3rd liner).
Because like i said above, cutting the "excess" in this case provides no benefits for the team. We are trying to win a cup and a reliable 13th forward is way more important than a 2nd round pick that probably won't develop into anything 4 years later. If its cap space you want, then there better be something to fill it with

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10-05-2009, 09:18 PM
  #272
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I already addressed the "cap space" point multiple times. It was just a throw-in point.

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Because like i said above, cutting the "excess" in this case provides no benefits for the team.
It provides many benefits, most of which I've already covered.
Quote:
We are trying to win a cup and a reliable 13th forward is way more important than a 2nd round pick that probably won't develop into anything 4 years later.
Because a 14th forward that, at best, is a sub-in will decide whether we win the Cup. It's not like our lines are already perfect without him.
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If its cap space you want, then there better be something to fill it with
The last time someone else mentioned the cap space thing I replied to it very clearly. I don't feel like typing out the same response again.

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10-05-2009, 09:21 PM
  #273
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Yeah bottomline for me is that I dont trade him unless he asks to be traded or someone really wants him and overpays

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10-06-2009, 04:06 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Helter Skelter View Post
You guys are never satisfied. Stevens wants to keep the defense pairing together even on the PP. It helps with line rotations and this is a deep team that will benefit greatly from having 3 steady pairs of defense. Putting Richards back on the point on the power play is not necessary anymore because we have Timonen and Pronger, both of whom are able to QB a PP. Carle and Coburn both have offensive talent and make us more reliable in case of counterattack. Even though we were successful with Richards on the point last year, there is definitely a risk taken when four forwards are placed on the PP.

Everybody who is complaining about Giroux and JVR not getting enough ice time must be forgetting that neither of them has ever played a full NHL season. Giroux will get regular ES time, a decent amount of SH time, and PP time here and there. JVR has never played an 82 game season, so keeping his ice time low is a good idea. These PP units will be perfectly fine and can be interchanged:

Gagne - Richards - JVR/Giroux
Timonen - Coburn

Hartnell - Carter - Briere
Pronger - Carle
Well, I can only speak to my reasonsing and that is "If it aint broke, dont fix it" Richie being on the point helped us have one of the top PP in the league the past two years, why change that?

And also, I rather have two highly skilled guys like Giroux/JVR get PP time than Coburn.

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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Although I'm not necessarily a supporter of trading Asham I do acknowledge that it's a good option. Here's why:

-Due to an excess of deserving forwards he's been a healthy scratch. The only foreseeable way that he'll get playing time is by rotating in and out of the lineup with Powe (personally I think Asham would be the better choice over Powe). When teams have an excessive amount of players they usually either send them to the minors or trade them to a place where the player will get to play.

-He's on the last year of his contract and he's unlikely to be re-signed so why carry him with us this year if he's not going to be on the roster full-time?

-It would free up contract and cap space while fetching something in return all for a player that we don't need anymore. I'd imagine Asham could fetch at least a second and we're short on picks so why not?
Still trying to figure out the obession with Asham and why everyone is against Powe.....I dont see much difference other than in experience level....and we have enough of that on the team.

There are much more important things to focus on with this team other than Asham...

Wow, we must really be in good shape if that is our big worry at the moment


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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Yeah bottomline for me is that I dont trade him unless he asks to be traded or someone really wants him and overpays
Yeah, basically. I like having him around as an extra....There will be injuries....If there is an injury in the top 6 Giroux can move up, Powe moves over to center and Asham comes in....I like having someone extra other than Cote....but I wont lose sleep if they do trade him.

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10-06-2009, 04:32 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
My last post kind of covered this.
if we trade Asham (600K) and take on cap space we may get a 2nd but on a straight up deal no way. Homer trade a pending RFA (who was due and got a higher salary) for a guy with a cheaper deal a year away from being an RFA. It's all moot anyway because the Flyers aren't dealing him....there will injuries soon enough and then we'll be glad we have him to plug in.

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