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Old
11-07-2004, 02:11 PM
  #126
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Not only line to line match ups happening but coaches will sometimes throw a 4th liner into say a second,or first line thus turning on the blender to frappe' . A second line that may attack with a 1-2-2,might now be attacking with a 2-2-1 with a different winger which may cause a fit for the opposing coach, and at the same time allows your coach to see the reaction of the said coach,the chemistry of the freshly minted line,and the response of the player who's been been granted a repieve from the lower line.

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11-08-2004, 11:01 AM
  #127
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as you say bloodsport,one of the attractive things about maybe only dressing 11 forwards and leaving a spot on a 4th line that some coaches like is the ability it gives you to mix and match line combinations with that 4th line.....mayybe put an offensive guy out one shift and the next a more defensive oriented guydepending on the situation,of course this demands a lot on the doubleshifting guys,and play on their regular line oftentimes suffers because of it...that's exactly what used to be done on old 4th lines all the time in the old days of hockey(the gretzky's,kurri's,lemieux's of the world used to get 6-8 more shifts per game than stars do now because of it too)...but today with most teams rolling 4 lines pretty much equally it's harder and harder to do it and keep everyone fresh and not give the other team too much of an advantage..

most people didn't know the AHL,until this year,only allowed 17 to dress,causing them to constantly roll three lines and mix and match a fourth until now(this because of the NHL lockout)...that's where lots of the comments from old ahl'ers fans about "the line compositions aren't really that important,watch and see how liquid noel's lines will be" came from,because they didn't anticipate(or appreciate)the new AHL rule change this year and how it would cause lines to become much more stable-just as it did in the NHL....that's why i'm constantly looking at the line compositions that noel is using as the season goes on...


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Old
11-09-2004, 10:11 PM
  #128
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quiet on the boards today i see...man i go away for one day and this happens..where in the world are you handtrick,quartermaster,fangs,crossxcheck?..

..does anyone know why the admiral game originally on the schedule for tonight(tuesday) against the Houston team was rescheduled?...makes the ads stay for 4 days sitting in san antonio,and me have no hockey for 4 frigging days

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11-10-2004, 01:51 AM
  #129
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I saw that on their schedule (on the Ads site) on Sunday. I thought that was odd that they had to sit in San Antonio for 4 days, but figured the shcedule just worked out that way. Unless I missed it, I didn't see any explanation on their site for the reschedule, so I just assumed it was like that originally.


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Old
11-10-2004, 07:53 AM
  #130
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on the original schedule it looks like it was a game in san antonio,then a game in houston,then another in san antonio,then another in houston on this swing....but for some reason the first game in houston was changed

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Old
11-13-2004, 07:24 AM
  #131
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just to confuse things;

reviewing some of this discussion,i didn't want to mislead anyone,so the other day,when we were talking about defensive 'schemes' or 'techniques' that teams use...such as tight point high or collapsing or staggered...well these three methods really simply describe the amount of pressure in the defensive zone a team is applying to the other teams point players both with and without the puck

we left out a discussion of the actual defensive formations/assignments that teams use in the defensive end...of course,first they choose basic defensive assignments....teams normally choose from 3 basic defensive sets....man-to-man,zone coverage,or a specialty defense such as a box and one...than INSIDE each of these sets,they decide the strategy of say playing a tight point high to cover dangerous defensivemen or maybe laying back on the weakside pointman(therefore the staggered technique) or maybe even collapsing both wingers to cover the high slot(collapsing) and basically ignoring the dmen at the point....but the defensive CONCEPT of each team is first chosen before a specific scheme can be used...

of course,teams play either a;
a)zone...where each man is given an area of the defensive zone to cover,and no player has any specific man he is permanently assigned to cover,rather a zone on the ice...easy to see when you see the puck down low,when the weakside dman drifts right back to in front of the net while the puck is in the opposite corner,showing he has no specific man coverage
b)man-to-man...where all five guys are straight up assigned a man to cover all over the defensive zone
c)specialty defense such as the box and one(sometimes a diamond and one)....here is where if you have one very dangerous guy you want very tight coverage on at all times and you choose one man to play man-to-man on him all over the ice in the defensive zone and the other four guys play a 2-2 zone....we played this almost exclusively against iginla and naslund and nash last year,with eaton being the assigned chaser to each of those guys pretty much thruout the game(normally the chasers primary job is to simply to try to deny the pass to this star player,and try to make the other 4 guys just run their offense without him)

each of these defensive sets obviously has their own strengths/weaknesses of course....such as when teams play a zone,pressure is not as tight as in man to man,but a team is not as vulnerable to give and gos...however in the zone set(which is used very often)there become specific areas that are very difficult to cover..these weak areas,or the areas right in between assigned zone areas of coverage for the 5 guys(say the seam at the right and left faceoff circles and out front right in the middle of the high slot)tend to draw the smart offensive player to set up for a quick one timer(the spaces and defenses against where hull has made his living for example)...teams in the man-to-man by the very nature of the defense,apply more direct puck pressure at all times,however they are vulnerable to give and goes due to defensive switches forced by "interference" or crisscrosses in the offensive zone...then the box and one of course might shut down the teams best offensive player by having a guy right in his face at all times,but meanwhile the other four guys playing the '2-2' zone mean the other 4 offensivemen have that many more open lanes and weak areas than normal and might well make you pay for that

anyway,just a few more semi-random thoughts

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Old
11-13-2004, 08:29 AM
  #132
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just a few more semi-random thoughts
I thought your thoughts were always random??


Seriously, good stuff....thanks for posting.

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Old
11-13-2004, 09:39 AM
  #133
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Pred303
I was reviewing the forecheck discussion. You mentioned the man-to-man schemes of 1-2-2, 2-1-2, and 3-1-1, as well as the traps: neutral zone trap, low trap, high trap, and left wing lock.

What about these other forechecking schemes:

Standard triangle
1-4
3-2 Check
1-1-3 Off-Wing Back
2-3 One Wing Always Back
Wings Chase, Center Forechecks
The difference between 2-1-2 and Aggressive 2-1-2
One Wing Always Deep
3-2 Press
The difference between 1-2-2 and 1-2-2 Everything to the Net
Aggressive Overload

Maybe me and my brother "Michael" will walk you through them tomorrow......

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Old
11-13-2004, 11:30 AM
  #134
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i'm not exactly sure what the 3-2 check scheme is ,but i look forward to hearing the explanation...and who is this Michael anyway?...give a guy an inch,and well you can see what happens

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Old
11-15-2004, 07:00 AM
  #135
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some interesting forechecking concepts you have listed there handtrick....every team has there own subtle versions of different schemes and it leads to many variations of each "formation"...

like the 1-4 you list...some teams instead of playing the base 1-2-2,will drop four guys back into the neutral zone,leaving one forechecker to attack,but really playing it conservative with the other four guys staying back.....then again you have a version of this where the 1-4 can be an extremely aggresive forechecking scheme in some teams playbook by simply having the four back guys all pushed forward inside the forechecking zone instead of the neutral zone

then the 1-1-3 and 2-3 you list.....both of these are different teams versions of the left wing lock....where they still have 3 guys in line with 1/3 of the ice defensivezone responsibility,but instead of the other two guys chasing the puck as they do in the left wing lock,the other two guys have zone responsibility in the offensive zone(either two men up for the 2-3,or with two guys stacked as the 1-1-3)

then take the "wing always back" type of scheme...again a version of the left wing lock type of forechecking where whoever the weakside wing is he falls back and the defenders shift over to the strongside and they really play the left wing lock,but with the difference that whoever is the weakside wing is the guy back in the 3 man zone coverage instead of it always being the leftwinger

really are tons of these things aren't there?...that brother michael knows what he is talking about i think...

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Old
11-16-2004, 06:58 AM
  #136
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oh one more thing handtrick,most of these versions of forechecking schemes you mention are designed to 'disquise' the true nature of the defensive forechecking the team is playing too...take that "wings always back" or the 1-1-3 you mention....in them look how they start out...with one forechecker and other guys playing in what looks like a 1-2-2...hoping to fool the other guys breakout scheme...then as soon as the breakout goes one way or the other then the offside winger falls back and the defenders slide over and the back line is simply playing the leftwing lock,but hoping the breakout hasn't read it until it's too late...some pretty sly stuff from old michael

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Old
11-16-2004, 06:49 PM
  #137
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With the standard 1-2-2, it stresses pressuring the puck carrier and checking areas where the puck is likely to go. It is essential for the wings to control the boards and the center to control the area between the faceoff dots depending on who breaks where.

The 1-1-3 Off-Wing Back, emphasizes the center and strong side wings aggressive forechecking and pressuring of the puck, while the weak side wing controls the weak half board and is always in postition to move into the slot. If the puck is sent around, the roles of the wings switch.

There are so many variations that it is mind boggling. The key is to match your team strengths to your system, whether it be speed or physical play. [The 1-2-2 does best with big physical wingers, whereas the 1-1-3 Off-Wing Back is best suited to good skating forwards, like the Preds]. Unfortunately, personnel quality varies as to which line is out there. I doubt whether a team plays more than one, or at the most, two, main systems with some variation of each.

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11-16-2004, 07:45 PM
  #138
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you're right handtricker,for simplicity sakes you see a team concentrate on one or maybe two of these zone forechecking variation schemes,then a man-to-man or two at most and putting in their own little tweeks or variations of them(usually renaming it for themsevles)....just is too complicated to use many variations at one time(you could see how it would possibly cause all types of blown coverages if just one man didn't get the call)....at least i've never seen or noticed a team changing more than that during the course of a game...Detroit used to run the 1-2-2 man to man down the ice one time,then maybe the next run what looked like the 1-2-2 man but fall right back into their leftwing lock(or what this michael called 'wing always back') once the puck started out from behind the net in order to confuse the guys running the breakout schemes and change back and forth at random

in the playoffs you sometimes see teams maybe change to entirely different concepts from one game to the next to cause confusion though...but i agree,you have to choose a style best suited to the majority of your personnel and learn it really well

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Old
11-16-2004, 09:02 PM
  #139
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A little while ago we discussed briefly using 5-man units. If you could use these units exclusively they could conceivably each use a different system to match their personal. Couldn’t they?

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Old
11-17-2004, 05:58 AM
  #140
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well they could fangs...but you hit on the real problem....never are the same 5 out there all the time togther....would be virtually impossible to try to run some different type of forechecking system for EACH specific line automatically therefore...you rarely see it done now where a team will change forechecking because of the line they have out there(now they,of course, CHOOSE the type of forechecking schemes the team plays based on personel)....but,they tend to change forechecking schemes based on where the game situation dictates(i.e.-more pressure-less pressure)and not line by line specific...(which face it would be potentially very confusing,hell i'm confused myself just talking about it :lol )

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Old
11-23-2004, 06:28 AM
  #141
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man i need hockey...or at least hockey talk...getting awfully quiet on the boards,makes you realize just how bad it could be if this drags out the rest of the year and people just find other ways to occupy their time.....really a sad state of affairs

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Old
11-23-2004, 06:48 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303
man i need hockey...or at least hockey talk...getting awfully quiet on the boards,makes you realize just how bad it could be if this drags out the rest of the year and people just find other ways to occupy their time.....really a sad state of affairs

It has gotten so bad that I have started reading about ETF's, TIPs, and commodity indexed funds.....talk about boring crap........

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11-23-2004, 04:19 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handtrick
It has gotten so bad that I have started reading about ETF's, TIPs, and commodity indexed funds.....talk about boring crap........
or of course you could just ask me about all that since i do that boring crap for a living :mad: :lol

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11-23-2004, 05:48 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Pred303
or of course you could just ask me about all that since i do that boring crap for a living :mad: :lol

You never know.... I may have been reading up to learn just enough to ask you a semi-literate, minimally moronic question about this crap.
[Geeeez, I see why you miss talking hockey so much now :troll: ......]

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11-23-2004, 06:30 PM
  #145
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:gman: hockey,investing,civil war,baseball,history,women...hey that's what i know

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Old
11-23-2004, 09:10 PM
  #146
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hockey,investing,civil war,baseball,history,women
In that order??

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11-23-2004, 10:02 PM
  #147
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well...not necessarily in that order

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Old
11-23-2004, 10:09 PM
  #148
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