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All-Time Draft #12, Part II

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Old
10-08-2009, 03:39 PM
  #976
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gary Roberts? Brian Sutter? No one said a word.
Roberts is a poor 1st line fit as well, but still better than Duff, IMO. He provides much more offense and physicality.

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Watch the next 20 LWs that get selected. When it gets to one who you think would have been the answer, speak up.
I would say the problem is you should've picked your 1st line LW earlier. There aren't many better fits left, that's true. I can only think of two off the top of my head.

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10-08-2009, 03:40 PM
  #977
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
There's still a few more that are better for 1st line duty, but not many.
More talented, I won't dispute. But talented, with the right skill set?

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10-08-2009, 03:47 PM
  #978
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More talented, I won't dispute. But talented, with the right skill set?
I think so... but I may be wrong

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10-08-2009, 03:53 PM
  #979
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Sutter is used in a 2nd line role. But I'll agree that Roberts on the 1st line is not great value.


I don't necessarily know there's a better option out there. I've stopped researching LWs. But is strikes me as digging the same whole I dug last ATD. Taking an elite defensive forward before making sure the 1st line is secure is a tactical nightmare. Especially when you need intangibles on the 1st line. That's always a very difficult spot to fill even when solved early.
I don't think it's a tactical nightmare. Every draft, there's always a few guys who will do it. Because a Gainey, Ramsay, Carbonneau, or Metz will add more overall value to your team than a number of 2nd liners and some 1st liners. It's tricky sometimes getting a guy for a 1st line when you've started your 3rd, but not a nightmare. I don't think any teams get all three first liners, then all three second liners, and so on.

Yeah, intangibles on the first are hard to solve. That's why I like Hooley Smith, Reg Noble, Baldy Northcott, Syd Howe, Bill Barber, Bert Olmstead, and Woody Dumart so much - they give you intangibles AND they have real top line talent.

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10-08-2009, 03:55 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't think it's a tactical nightmare. Every draft, there's always a few guys who will do it. Because a Gainey, Ramsay, Carbonneau, or Metz will add more overall value to your team than a number of 2nd liners and some 1st liners. It's tricky sometimes getting a guy for a 1st line when you've started your 3rd, but not a nightmare. I don't think any teams get all three first liners, then all three second liners, and so on.

Yeah, intangibles on the first are hard to solve. That's why I like Hooley Smith, Reg Noble, Baldy Northcott, Syd Howe, Bill Barber, Bert Olmstead, and Woody Dumart so much - they give you intangibles AND they have real top line talent.
I suppose that can be true. Still, it certainly has some disadvantages in a draft this size.

And don't forget Toe Blake

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10-08-2009, 04:08 PM
  #981
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I don't see why there's such a distinction between "first line", "second line", and "third line" players. To me, if you're on one of those lines you'll be playing a regular shift, and you have to outscore the opposition.

The first unit power play is the real key where you don't want less skilled players, IMO.

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10-08-2009, 04:13 PM
  #982
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Hey were are you guys getting these reports on the players from. What website.

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10-08-2009, 04:17 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
Hey were are you guys getting these reports on the players from. What website.
I'm not sure what you mean by reports, but as far as information goes, stuff like legendsofhockey and GreatestHockeyLegends.com have some good bios for a lot of players. Bios from previous drafts are good as well.

For player stats, hockeyreference.com is likely the best place that's free.

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10-08-2009, 04:29 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I don't see why there's such a distinction between "first line", "second line", and "third line" players. To me, if you're on one of those lines you'll be playing a regular shift, and you have to outscore the opposition.

The first unit power play is the real key where you don't want less skilled players, IMO.
I agree. On two of the last three Stanley Cup champions(Anaheim and Pittsburgh), there's been little distinction between the first and second line and both teams had "bottom line players" play roles on those lines. From the NHL to international competitions to every other level of hockey, spreading out your offensive depth is a very common strategy. I know the ATD is the best of the best of all-time, but that should mean very little, as the strategy of the game doesn't change much. Not sure why some people look down upon it as much here.

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10-08-2009, 04:52 PM
  #985
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He can play the same role that Dino Ciccarelli did on Fedorov's wing, but without the playoff no-shows.
Playoff no-shows? Ciccarelli? 73 goals in 141 playoff games, 7 times he was a point-per-game in the playoffs, that has to mean something. Definitely doesn't scream out "no-show" to me, anyway.

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10-08-2009, 04:56 PM
  #986
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Playoff no-shows? Ciccarelli? 73 goals in 141 playoff games, 7 times he was a point-per-game in the playoffs, that has to mean something. Definitely doesn't scream out "no-show" to me, anyway.
Ciccarelli was a playoff disappointment on Fedorov's wing, and Fedorov is my first line centre.

The other thing about Dino is that you can't count on him for much unless you have a spot for him on the top power play unit. He scored almost half of his playoff goals on the power play and was -37 since 1983-84 when playoff plus-minus was first tracked.


Last edited by overpass: 10-08-2009 at 05:11 PM.
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10-08-2009, 05:11 PM
  #987
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Ciccarelli was a playoff disappointment on Fedorov's wing, and Fedorov is my first line centre.
Aside from his final season, with 8 points in 17 games, Dino was pretty good statistically in the playoffs with the Red Wings; 24 points in 29 games. You obviously know better than I do, as I was too far young to understand much about the game back then, but one playoff no-show isn't a great indicator, at least IMO.

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10-08-2009, 05:28 PM
  #988
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On our first line, we have a fantastic playmaker and goal scorer in Ratelle, but he's a little on the gentle side (ok, a lot). Mikhailov is a great corner guy, leader, will mix it up and he can score goals, especially in the slot.

We got Duff because he compliments these guys so much. Not only does he add an elite defensive presence, but he is very much capable of getting the puck to the net for Mikhailov to tip or score on the rebound, and he's a great guy to have for corner work as well. Between him and Mikhailov, Ratelle is going to have plenty of room to work his magic. This is a 32 team draft. Only a few guys are going to get those stellar 1st line LWs, but that means they'll be lacking in other areas. We have Ullman, Coffey, Day, L. Patrick, Mikhailov, Ratelle, Ramsay, oh and let's not forget Jacques Plante, who only makes every other pick look better. I think we'll be fine. I'm not concerned about our first line.

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10-08-2009, 05:40 PM
  #989
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Thoughts...

*As someone who's a big Duff fan (picked him in MLD 5 the day before he went into the HHOF, and nabbed him in ATD 10), I think this is where he belongs. I'm not sold on him as a first line LW, even in a complimentary role. Big-game guy who understood that he played 70 games to qualify for the post-season. But does he have the abilities to play first line? I doubt it. Does he have the ability to play second line? Yes. Was he in the top five for my third line LW spot? Yes. (But I've had him before).

*Dino: I believe he set the record for points in a post-season by a rookie in 1981. He scored at well over a 40-goal clip in the playoffs. He's well under a point-per-game, but, again, his goal clip increased in the post-season. He's a really valuable guy to have because he's a goal scorer with a ton of grit. And he was fantastic in front of the net. One of the best goal-scorers in tight of his generation. And there were a lot of good goal-scorers in tight. A lot like Glenn Anderson - great player in tight, abrasive, solid agitator - although doesn't have the speed that Anderson had, and he doesn't have six Cups.

*Armstrong: Congrats, overpass. You just got your captain. Among the top leaders of all-time. Skating's an issue, but size and hockey sense aren't. But he always figured out how to "get there." He used that size and anticipation to overcome his skating deficiencies.

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10-08-2009, 05:42 PM
  #990
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Got a mid-term in 20 mins. I should be back soon enough, but anyone wanna take a 3-man list in case mullin and chaos pop up while I'm gone?

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10-08-2009, 05:46 PM
  #991
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Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Roberts is a poor 1st line fit as well, but still better than Duff, IMO. He provides much more offense and physicality.


I would say the problem is you should've picked your 1st line LW earlier. There aren't many better fits left, that's true. I can only think of two off the top of my head.
If you watched Roberts play on a regular basis from 1991 to 1994 - prior to the neck injury - you wouldn't be saying that. He was virtually unstoppable. A blood clot in his thigh kept him from soaring past 50 goals and 100 points in 1993. He played the 1994 playoffs with a shattered thumb and the neck injury that forced him to miss the better part of three seasons. (Hockey-reference.com is wrong on the date of his neck injury - he suffered it either late in the 1993-94 season, or in the 1994 playoffs).

He's a complimentary guy who was an absolutely dominant force for three years. We needed someone who could play tough and physical, win battles in the corners, drive the front of the net and finish plays generated by the skill of Bentley and Middleton. He drives to the front of the net, he can score goals in a variety of ways, he has great hands in tight, and he's hard to move from the front of the net. He provides a great screen in front on the power play. His work ethic, leadership and locker room presence are also top notch.

He's an excellent complimentary player for a first line.

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10-08-2009, 05:46 PM
  #992
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Screw you guys, I'm leaving haha. Sent my list to GBC, hopefully that's fine with you GBC lol.

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10-08-2009, 05:47 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Got a mid-term in 20 mins. I should be back soon enough, but anyone wanna take a 3-man list in case mullin and chaos pop up while I'm gone?
Yep.

The next main draft thread should be up soon, too.

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10-08-2009, 05:55 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
If you watched Roberts play on a regular basis from 1991 to 1994 - prior to the neck injury - you wouldn't be saying that. He was virtually unstoppable. A blood clot in his thigh kept him from soaring past 50 goals and 100 points in 1993. He played the 1994 playoffs with a shattered thumb and the neck injury that forced him to miss the better part of three seasons. (Hockey-reference.com is wrong on the date of his neck injury - he suffered it either late in the 1993-94 season, or in the 1994 playoffs).

He's a complimentary guy who was an absolutely dominant force for three years. We needed someone who could play tough and physical, win battles in the corners, drive the front of the net and finish plays generated by the skill of Bentley and Middleton. He drives to the front of the net, he can score goals in a variety of ways, he has great hands in tight, and he's hard to move from the front of the net. He provides a great screen in front on the power play. His work ethic, leadership and locker room presence are also top notch.

He's an excellent complimentary player for a first line.
I did see him, and he's one of my favourite players of all time. That doesn't change the fact that he's a guy I'd much rather have at second line (though LW is the thinnest position here regardless, so based on that he might be better fit... eh). And it's not only about peak, is it? Otherwise Ovechkin would go far sooner among LWs.

That said I do in no shape or form intend to diss Roberts as pick or player. I wanted to take him in rnd 7 before you took him 4 picks before mine. But he's simply a superb 2nd line guy in my mind. As complimentary player on 1st? Well, I guess. But I don't like it too much.

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10-08-2009, 05:58 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Thoughts...

*As someone who's a big Duff fan (picked him in MLD 5 the day before he went into the HHOF, and nabbed him in ATD 10), I think this is where he belongs. I'm not sold on him as a first line LW, even in a complimentary role. Big-game guy who understood that he played 70 games to qualify for the post-season. But does he have the abilities to play first line? I doubt it. Does he have the ability to play second line? Yes. Was he in the top five for my third line LW spot? Yes. (But I've had him before).

*Dino: I believe he set the record for points in a post-season by a rookie in 1981. He scored at well over a 40-goal clip in the playoffs. He's well under a point-per-game, but, again, his goal clip increased in the post-season. He's a really valuable guy to have because he's a goal scorer with a ton of grit. And he was fantastic in front of the net. One of the best goal-scorers in tight of his generation. And there were a lot of good goal-scorers in tight. A lot like Glenn Anderson - great player in tight, abrasive, solid agitator - although doesn't have the speed that Anderson had, and he doesn't have six Cups.

*Armstrong: Congrats, overpass. You just got your captain. Among the top leaders of all-time. Skating's an issue, but size and hockey sense aren't. But he always figured out how to "get there." He used that size and anticipation to overcome his skating deficiencies.
Above all else, Duff was a winner. His production actually goes UP in the playoffs, and he won 6 cups! On a line that boasts a guy who never won a cup, and another guy that only won international tournaments, I think Duff is of HUGE value on our line. Does he have the abilities to play a 1st line role? Maybe not. But all we're counting on him to do offensively is get the puck to the net. Ratelle, we think, is more than capable of handling the distribution of the puck, and with Coffey and Day in the back, there will be no shortage of offensive firepower on our first line. Duff just adds everything else - a winning attitude with experience as a big game player (he wasn't just on 6 cup teams, he was KEY in those cup wins), great physicality that, between him and Mikhailov, will make our first line very tough to play against, while being decent offensively himself. I don't think Duff is out of place on our first line at all. Maybe we don't have an "elite" first line, but what do you expect? We drafted the greatest goalie in history with our first pick, that immediately put us behind the pack for offense. Instead, it gives us flexibility in our drafting, and with the considerable defensive presence that we're building up, we won't need to score a lot of goals to win. All of this only helps to increase Plante's value in our net even more, and him being there increases the value of everyone else.

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10-08-2009, 06:01 PM
  #996
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I did see him, and he's one of my favourite players of all time. That doesn't change the fact that he's a guy I'd much rather have at second line (though LW is the thinnest position here regardless, so based on that he might be better fit... eh). And it's not only about peak, is it? Otherwise Ovechkin would go far sooner among LWs.

That said I do in no shape or form intend to diss Roberts as pick or player. I wanted to take him in rnd 7 before you took him 4 picks before mine. But he's simply a superb 2nd line guy in my mind. As complimentary player on 1st? Well, I guess. But I don't like it too much.
Ovechkin actually was the guy I envisioned as Max's LWer when I picked Max. The speed and puck skills would have been incredible (not to mention the combination of Max's playmaking, Ovechkin's shooting ability, and his sheer desire to score goals). And it would have meant we could have taken several different directions with the first line RW.

When we picked Middleton, it meant we needed to get that gritty, goal-scoring, room-opening LW to play with Max and Nifty. When you look at all he brought on and off the ice, throughout his career, Roberts was the best option.

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10-08-2009, 06:09 PM
  #997
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If you're not sold on Duff as a complementary player on a 1st line, you should not be sold on Gary Roberts, either. Let's do an elementary comparison of the two:

Neither was a renowned playmaker so we can eliminate that part right away. Roberts exploded into the top-5 in goals once, and aside from that, was only in the top-20 in the NHL one other time. (Roberts had two other seasons where his GPG was enough to make him a top-10 scorer, but he played a combined 93 games those two seasons.) Duff was in the lower half of the top-10 twice and three more times was a top-20 scorer. That's a goal-scoring record similar to a Punch Broadbent, Hooley Smith, or Doug Mohns, and a tad better than fellows like George Armstrong, Danny Gare (aside from Gare's league-leading season), Ace Bailey (ditto), Bob Pulford, and Neil Colville. Both Roberts and Duff are loaded with intangibles, the major differences being that Duff is better defensively, Roberts is tougher, and Duff has a better playoff resume (a 25% PPG increase is huge, even if Roberts' 2% decrease is more than respectable) Then there's reliability. Knocking off Duff's 1st and last season, he played 89% of scheduled games in his career. Knocking off Roberts' 1st and last two, he played 74% of his.

A similar comparison could be made regarding Duff and Brian Sutter, your 2nd line glue guy. Sutter was not a playmaker either, was top-10 in goals once and top-20 one more time, tougher, less skilled defensively, with a PPG decrease of 22% in the playoffs.

I think part of the reason for the "backlash" here (and I use the term loosely) against putting Duff up on the first line is that the recent sentiment regarding Duff is all about what a bad HHOF selection he was. No, he's not a great hall of famer but he was an excellent team guy who brought a lot of everything you want in a player.

As overpass and Leopold have already said, you don't need to have three elite offensive players on your first line. That's what your first PP unit is for. You need a first line that works. It's the one that's going to play the most even strength minutes for your team.

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