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FINAL RESULTS: Greatest Leader

View Poll Results: The Greatest Leader??
Mark Messier 29 37.66%
Joe Sakic 0 0%
Ray Bourque 2 2.60%
Mario Lemieux 2 2.60%
Brian Trottier 0 0%
Wayne Gretzky 8 10.39%
Steve Yzerman 22 28.57%
Scott Stevens 7 9.09%
Bobby Clarke 2 2.60%
Mike Modano 0 0%
Ron Francis 1 1.30%
Lanny McDonald 2 2.60%
Darryl Sittler 1 1.30%
Chris Chelios 0 0%
Daniel Alfredsson 1 1.30%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-20-2004, 09:56 PM
  #26
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Beliveau !

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11-20-2004, 10:17 PM
  #27
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Bob Gainey?

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11-21-2004, 01:13 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
In my own little world, Mark Messier retired in 1991, having accomplished everything possible as a leader and lives there as an Oiler forever. To me, all that guaranteed win in 94 stuff has been so overdone that it has cast a shadow over the rest of his career by overdoing the legend. But Mark Messier from 84 to 91, that was a leader.
Common man, with Messier as the leader in 94 they would've beaten a team full of Jesus'.

I still vote Yzerman as Messier's credibility as a leader has slipped a bit in the past few years. BTW, no Ted Kennedy, Jean Beliveau, or Bob Gainey?

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11-21-2004, 01:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Bruins4Ever
Bourque. He consistently showed that he was the best leader in many years. He never won a Cup in Boston, but being a leader has nothing to do with the championships, but it has to do with how you work with your teammates, and how you inspire them. A leader can't be the one responsible for not winning a Cup, that's up to the whole team. That's what happened in Boston, but Bourque was the leader for so many years, and he was respected by everyone in the league.

He never let his anger take control of him, he never bad mouthed other players, but he showed everyone on the Bruins that someone in every group is a true leader, and Bourque was the true leader of the Bruins for 20 years.
Great points. Exactly why Bourque is my favourite player ever but I believe that the same can be said about Yzerman plus he lead his team to two cups(oh and a third eventually).

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11-21-2004, 01:52 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_steve
Common man, with Messier as the leader in 94 they would've beaten a team full of Jesus'.

I still vote Yzerman as Messier's credibility as a leader has slipped a bit in the past few years. BTW, no Ted Kennedy, Jean Beliveau, or Bob Gainey?

You're not understanding my point about Messier. I'm not diminishing his leadership in 94, I'M SAYING THE REST OF THE WORLD TAKES IT TOO SERIOUSLY. The media created a deity out of him, and I think it was a discredit to the man that they did so...

As i stated in the opening post, I included only those I saw play, So Kennedy and Beliveau are outside the range.

2 good reasons for no Bob Gainey

1) when I think of habs leadership in my lifetime, I think Larry Robinson. Being a defensive forward doesn't automatically qualify you as a leader.

2) at an exhibition game in Halifax at or about 1981, he promised me and my friend Spaz, along with about 10 other kids that he would sign our autographs at intermission. Then he bolted for the dressing room with 30 seconds left in the period. Me and Spaz gave chase to the bum and got his signature. That probably still means a lot to Spaz cause he's a pretty devoted long-term Habs fan. For me, it was the start of a grudge, and I can be pretty stubborn about a grudge.

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11-21-2004, 05:04 PM
  #31
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I guess I took the Messier post wrongly then. Sorry I guess.

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11-21-2004, 05:06 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_steve
I guess I took the Messier post wrongly then. Sorry I guess.
No need to apologize, I have that dementia which strikes only Oiler fans, so it makes my opinion

a) rambling and emotional
B) hard to understand
C) Incoherent, mixed with intermittent tears and rage
D) All of the above.

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11-21-2004, 05:12 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan
Torn between Yzerman and Sakic. .
Why are u so torn? Yzerman is a good option, but, I wouldnt put sakic no where near or past Messier or even Yzerman.The closest thing to Messier is Scott Stevens. And he is right behind Messier and not by far.

Messier is the best leader of all time, its really the only right answer.The guy can score(goals and assists) plays a defensive game along with an offensive game, he hits, plays aggressive, fights, sticks up for teammates.The guy does it all. Unlike all the others.Not that they all are not good leaders but there not GREAT like Messier is or was.He is a bit old and is not what he used to be but he has done more than enough.

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11-21-2004, 05:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
Messier is the best leader of all time, its really the only right answer.The guy can score(goals and assists) plays a defensive game along with an offensive game, he hits, plays aggressive, fights, sticks up for teammates.The guy does it all. Unlike all the others.Not that they all are not good leaders but there not GREAT like Messier is or was.He is a bit old and is not what he used to be but he has done more than enough.
#1. Messier has never been a good defensive player, and at times is downright horrid. Even as he got older he didn't make the transition to becoming more of a defensive player.

#2. 7 straight non-playoff seasons has to count for something.

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11-21-2004, 05:24 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
#1. Messier has never been a good defensive player, and at times is downright horrid. Even as he got older he didn't make the transition to becoming more of a defensive player.

#2. 7 straight non-playoff seasons has to count for something.
#1- Ok you could be very right and i wont argue with that. I also think he is not as bad as you make him out to be on the "D" side of things.You make him sound horrid.

#2 -So what u are saying is because he didnt make the playoffs for 7 years means he loses ground as a leader. If so then I think you got me slightly confused.As a hockey fan you should know that hockey is a team sport and if everyone dont contribute the team goes no where.Messier can only do so much and its not fair to put 7 years of no playoffs all on his back ( take into consideration team mgmt, players and chemistry) .If this was Baseball or Basketball then it would be a little different. But hockey is one of the only sports where you need everyone to contribute to win.And a team like the Devils is a great example, as for when a whole team contributes how far you can go.

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11-21-2004, 05:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AG9NK35DT8
#2 -So what u are saying is because he didnt make the playoffs for 7 years means he loses ground as a leader. If so then I think you got me slightly confused.As a hockey fan you should know that hockey is a team sport and if everyone dont contribute the team goes no where.Messier can only do so much and its not fair to put 7 years of no playoffs all on his back ( take into consideration team mgmt, players and chemistry) .If this was Baseball or Basketball then it would be a little different. But hockey is one of the only sports where you need everyone to contribute to win.And a team like the Devils is a great example, as for when a whole team contributes how far you can go.
I'm not saying it's all Messier's fault that his teams haven't made the playoffs in 7 years, but that does have to be brought up in the conversation.

That has never happened to any of the other top leaders on this list: Clarke, Stevens, and Yzerman.

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11-21-2004, 07:16 PM
  #37
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If Messier was put on a typical average team the those years that was a bubble team he would played a MASSIVE part in getting them into the playoffs. However, when you're 40, and you're surounded by 33 year old players that picked money over hockey it makes it pretty damned tough. Yzerman on the Rangers wouldn't have got them to the playoffs. Same with Francis, Stevens, etc.

As said before, none of these guys have had comparable success. And, no, Messier was not some ride-along #2 to Gretzky. It was the Mooses dressing room. He's the one that said something when it needed to be said. Gretz was one of those lead by example guys - which, IMO, isn't what this thread is looking for, otherwise we'd just be having a top player of all time discussion.

Cold day in Hell Yzerman or Francis would absolutely murder somebody with an elbow putting the fear of god into the opposition. Cold day in Hell does Stevens play as one of the top 3-4 offensive players in the game.

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Old
11-21-2004, 07:19 PM
  #38
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You gotta go for Lemieux on this one... look at the 91 and 92 penguins.. he turned Kevin Stevens into a 100 point man and gave Rob Brown an 80 point season. Not to discredit anyone on the list but who played alongside Yzerman.. The Redwings are a bonafide dynasty.

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11-21-2004, 07:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
If Messier was put on a typical average team the those years that was a bubble team he would played a MASSIVE part in getting them into the playoffs. However, when you're 40, and you're surounded by 33 year old players that picked money over hockey it makes it pretty damned tough. Yzerman on the Rangers wouldn't have got them to the playoffs. Same with Francis, Stevens, etc.
Don't give me the BS that Messier has played on horrid teams for the past 7 years, he was a big contributer, to those teams not making the playoffs.

Messier was surrounded with some very real talent in Vancouver: Bure, Mogilny, Naslund, Bertuzzi, Ohlund, Linden, McCabe, Lumme, Scatchard, Aucoin, Morrison, Cassels, Jovanovski.

Messier leaves and they make they've made the playoffs every year since. His Canucks team had talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
As said before, none of these guys have had comparable success. And, no, Messier was not some ride-along #2 to Gretzky. It was the Mooses dressing room. He's the one that said something when it needed to be said. Gretz was one of those lead by example guys - which, IMO, isn't what this thread is looking for, otherwise we'd just be having a top player of all time discussion.
It doesn't matter how you lead, just that you do it. Leadership doesn't have to be yelling and screaming. Leadership is being a professional, setting the right example, and by leading the team on the ice.

Messier was more vocal than Gretzky in the locker room, but it was still Gretzky's team without a doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Cold day in Hell Yzerman or Francis would absolutely murder somebody with an elbow putting the fear of god into the opposition. Cold day in Hell does Stevens play as one of the top 3-4 offensive players in the game.
when was the last time Messier put the fear of god into an opponent ??? 7 years, 10 years ago ???

The difference is that as Yzerman and Stevens got older, they changed their games. While not the offensive players they once were, they changed so that they could still be very important players on a winning hockey team.

Messier has never changed his game. He's still offense first and to stubborn to change.

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11-22-2004, 02:34 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26

Cold day in Hell Yzerman or Francis would absolutely murder somebody with an elbow putting the fear of god into the opposition. .
Not to discredit what you're saying, but personally I would not be motivated by that type of leadership as much as the Beliveau/Yzerman/Sakic style.

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11-22-2004, 10:56 AM
  #41
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Beliveau would of been my choice if he was listed, but out of the names on the list I'll go with Gretzky. He is seriously underrated when it comes to leadership. He was a great leader for the Oilers, a great leader for the Kings (ask any player on the '92-'93 Kings Stanley Cup final team), was always a great leader for Canada in numerous tournaments as a player and as a GM.

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11-22-2004, 12:08 PM
  #42
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Beliveau, then Yzerman and Sakic.

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Old
11-24-2004, 07:09 PM
  #43
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Well, the poll is closed, and the results have been counted.

Messier, not suprisingly was your first choice, with Yzerman getting lots of love, too. Beliveau was identified by some older posters. Many posters seemed to feel highly about Sakic, but as a "second-choicer", and he received no love.

Mike Modano, sadly, was no one's choice. Anastasia-Priscilla, his fabulous giant poodle is said to be petitioning the poll scrutineers about some irregularities in which glamorous, well-fed and pampered pooches were not allowed to vote.

Updates to follow........

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11-24-2004, 07:35 PM
  #44
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Lemieux?

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11-24-2004, 11:05 PM
  #45
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How come nobody has even mentioned Guy Lafleur?

The guy was just an amazing leader as he always made the play that lead to the important goal or scored himself in key situations whether it was game 7 in overtime or game 4 when the Canadiens were on the verge of a sweep he was the man. I saw in the hall of fame video a journalist from MTL say that Pierre Bouchard who played with the habs around that time, once said to him that we had all the great players on our team with the Lemaire and the Shutts and the Lapointes, Robinsons, Savards, Cournoyers, Gaineys but when it was an important stanley cup final game we looked around at each other and said "Thank god we have Lafleur". I think that sais it all not to mention his amazing talent, the excitment that he brought to his game and the number of future hhof-ers that he inspired especially Lemieux and Gretzky.

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11-24-2004, 11:21 PM
  #46
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Sakic got no votes!!!!

Even Afredsson got a vote

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Old
11-25-2004, 03:58 AM
  #47
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Messier's last stint with the Rag$ IMO spoils his image as a good leader. If Saku could take the mediocre habs to the playoffs... no doubt a guy like Mark should be able to put at least a couple of the pieces together on the rag$ and take them to the playoffs...

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