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How is the economic crisis effecting teams in Germany?

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Old
10-01-2009, 04:52 AM
  #76
zecke26
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Originally Posted by fuechsken View Post
I've put together the average attendance figures of the first eight gamedays and compared it with last season. It's just a projection, but it shows the main development.
is it compared to last season in general or to the first eight games last season?

here in kassel the attendance was weak compared to last year, but usually once it gets colder more and more people watch the games. so i still think 4000 is possible. and that would be not much a drop if at all.
the same should happen to other smaller markets like straubing, augsburg and iserlohn. even frankfurt could catch their old numbers again.

the DEL has lots of problems, but i think attendance is not their biggest problem at the moment. the lack of TV time is much worse if you want to attract bigger sponsors.

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10-02-2009, 11:44 AM
  #77
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It is compared to the overall attendance of last year. As I wrote, the projection is inaccurate but it shows a tendency. Especially the drop of over 20% in Düsseldorf and Hannover is significant.

But I agree with you that attendance is a symptom and not the cause of the problems in the DEL.

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10-02-2009, 12:37 PM
  #78
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Nobody in Berlin seemed to carry Ice Baeren merchandise. I had to go to the fanshop (although it did allow me to check out the East-side Gallery) to find stuff. Unfortunately it was all ugly.

The Kaufhof's in Dusseldorf did stock some DEG stuff. Got a nice t-shirt.

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10-02-2009, 06:23 PM
  #79
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@Jacques Strap:
That's not unusual in Germany. Only a few stores carry merchandising articles from the DEL-teams and most of the stuff has to be ordered/purchased directly at the teams' fanshop.

Düsseldorf is an exception, cause Kaufhof is part of the Metro Group which is the main sponsor of the team.

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10-03-2009, 10:27 PM
  #80
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I can tell that Kaufhof sells some merchandise articles in Mannheim, too. And they used to have most merchandise articles in Duisburg, but that has most likely changed since the Füchse left the DEL.

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10-06-2009, 01:55 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by fuechsken View Post
Good luck looking for this someone. I doubt you'd find someone like e.g. Thomas Sabo in Nuremberg, since people which money, vision and interest in hockey are very very rare in Germany.
That's very unfortunate. Attendance doesn't seem to bad in Germany so there must be interest in hockey.

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10-06-2009, 01:58 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by fuechsken View Post
I've put together the average attendance figures of the first eight gamedays and compared it with last season. It's just a projection, but it shows the main development.

Just 3 of all 15 teams have increased their attendance. Overall average might not look that bad, but it's biased because the teams haven't had the same number of home games yet.

Team / Absolute Difference / Relative Difference

Berlin Polar Bears / +214 / +1,56
Mannheim Eagles / -1,152 / -9,80
Cologne Sharks / -970 / -9,38

Hamburg Freezers / +137 / +1,72
Frankfurt Lions / -675 / -10,87
DEG Metro Stars / -1,576 / -25,90
Hannover Scorpions / -1,299 / -22,92

Krefeld Penguins / -531 / -11,82
Thomas Sabo Ice Tigers / -473 / -10,94
Straubing Tigers / -451 / -10,67
Kassel Huskies / -482 / -11,84
Iserlohn Roosters / -310 / -8,02
Augsburg Panthers / -209 / -5,68

ERC Ingolstadt / +111 / +3,32
Grizzly Adams Wolfsburg / -144 / -6,19

Total / -219 / -3,73
I agree with the poster that said you have to compare apples with apples. Attendance the first games of last season vs. the first games of this season. Hockey attendance always improves when the weather cools down. Attendance doesn't look too bad in most cities.

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10-08-2009, 10:17 PM
  #83
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As I said, I agree with you, but this data is all we have and, in my opinion, it definitely shows a trend.

Just look at Düsseldorf, they have an attendance of 4,500 this season, 6,000 last season. Doesn't sound that bad but you definitely have to consider the operating costs of the arena, which has a total capacity of 13,400. They moved into this arena some (three?) years ago in order to provide a better service and sky boxes for their business partners. The tradeoff was that the "average fans", who loved the old arena (it had a really great atmosphere but no sky boxes), had a lot of difficulties adjusting to the new "ISS Dome". The managers were aware of this risk before moving to the new arena but saw the importance of providing a better service for their business partners. But now they are in a dilemma: more and more business partners quit their contracts and the beautiful sky boxes don't pay off anymore. But the attendance of the "average" fans went down as well, since the new arena had a lot of flaws (limited parking lots, no tram connection, ticket prices, atmosphere). The point is that an attendance of 4,500 in the old arena probably wouldn't have caused financial trouble for the club due to lower operating costs. But for the new arena you need a much higher attendance (they were aiming for at least 8,000) especially since you are not able to rent out your sky boxes.

I don't know the situation in Hannover as well as in Düsseldorf, but they have an attendance of 3,300 (5,700 last season) in an arena with a total capacity of 10,700. I guess they have some problems with the operating costs as well. But the other hockey team playing in Hannover has an attendance of 3,500 in the second-tier minor league this season and of 3,200 in the third-tier minor league last season. Their arena has a capacity of 4,600 and should be operating at much lower costs.

Coming back to the topic of the economic crisis, it's most helpful to talk about how the clubs are able to self-finance. Of course, 5,000 fans are a good number, but not if you need a higher attendance to break even. In my opinion some clubs made the wrong choice when they left their old but beloved arenas to move into larger ones. The concept workes eventually (see Mannheim, and Berlin seems to work as well). But especially a club like Düsseldorf whose success was partially build on the legendary atmosphere in the arena somehow sold its soul when moving to a new place.
And I think a lot of managers made the wrong assumptions about the selling propositions of hockey in Germany. People went there to be a part of this special event but now many clubs have turned into faceless teams which play an emotionless game in a replaceable arena. The fan isn't able to identify with his team anymore.

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10-09-2009, 01:04 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by fuechsken View Post
As I said, I agree with you, but this data is all we have and, in my opinion, it definitely shows a trend.

Just look at Düsseldorf, they have an attendance of 4,500 this season, 6,000 last season. Doesn't sound that bad but you definitely have to consider the operating costs of the arena, which has a total capacity of 13,400. They moved into this arena some (three?) years ago in order to provide a better service and sky boxes for their business partners. The tradeoff was that the "average fans", who loved the old arena (it had a really great atmosphere but no sky boxes), had a lot of difficulties adjusting to the new "ISS Dome". The managers were aware of this risk before moving to the new arena but saw the importance of providing a better service for their business partners. But now they are in a dilemma: more and more business partners quit their contracts and the beautiful sky boxes don't pay off anymore. But the attendance of the "average" fans went down as well, since the new arena had a lot of flaws (limited parking lots, no tram connection, ticket prices, atmosphere). The point is that an attendance of 4,500 in the old arena probably wouldn't have caused financial trouble for the club due to lower operating costs. But for the new arena you need a much higher attendance (they were aiming for at least 8,000) especially since you are not able to rent out your sky boxes.

I don't know the situation in Hannover as well as in Düsseldorf, but they have an attendance of 3,300 (5,700 last season) in an arena with a total capacity of 10,700. I guess they have some problems with the operating costs as well. But the other hockey team playing in Hannover has an attendance of 3,500 in the second-tier minor league this season and of 3,200 in the third-tier minor league last season. Their arena has a capacity of 4,600 and should be operating at much lower costs.

Coming back to the topic of the economic crisis, it's most helpful to talk about how the clubs are able to self-finance. Of course, 5,000 fans are a good number, but not if you need a higher attendance to break even. In my opinion some clubs made the wrong choice when they left their old but beloved arenas to move into larger ones. The concept workes eventually (see Mannheim, and Berlin seems to work as well). But especially a club like Düsseldorf whose success was partially build on the legendary atmosphere in the arena somehow sold its soul when moving to a new place.
And I think a lot of managers made the wrong assumptions about the selling propositions of hockey in Germany. People went there to be a part of this special event but now many clubs have turned into faceless teams which play an emotionless game in a replaceable arena. The fan isn't able to identify with his team anymore.
I agree with your post completely. Nothing worse than watching hockey in a huge arena that is less than 2/3's full. Hockey atmostphere is always better in a full arena, especially one where every seat seems like it's on top of the action. I still think it's too early to say if attendance is down. Let's come back to this in a few more weeks.

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10-09-2009, 10:29 PM
  #85
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Okay, agreed

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01-02-2010, 02:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by fuechsken View Post
@HockeyInsider87

Okay, agreed
Well, it seems that attendance is pretty good lately with one or two exceptions. SERC Wild Wings attendance might be the highest in the league this year so maybe they will pay some players from past years that they owe money to, haha not likely going to happen unless their owners all of a sudden see the light and learn to respect contracts they agree to.

The economy is stabilizing and so is hockey attendance. It's even up in some places. Good news for hockey fans and players.

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01-12-2010, 05:55 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by HockeyInsider87 View Post
Well, it seems that attendance is pretty good lately with one or two exceptions. SERC Wild Wings attendance might be the highest in the league this year so maybe they will pay some players from past years that they owe money to, haha not likely going to happen unless their owners all of a sudden see the light and learn to respect contracts they agree to.

The economy is stabilizing and so is hockey attendance. It's even up in some places. Good news for hockey fans and players.
You're talking about us before 2003, right? We are nowhere close of being in such a financial situation since we are in the 2nd divison. Hence, we have a higher sponsor income now than in our last years in the DEL.

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01-12-2010, 01:01 PM
  #88
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You're talking about us before 2003, right? We are nowhere close of being in such a financial situation since we are in the 2nd divison. Hence, we have a higher sponsor income now than in our last years in the DEL.
I am talking about this year. Your attendance figures are likely the highest in the ESBG this year so things seem to be going well financially and in the standings. My point was that maybe your owners could afford to pay players on time and in full something I have been told by more than one person has not been the case the past couple of years.

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03-04-2010, 08:42 AM
  #89
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The drop in the Euro has to be a major concern for everyone but especially to imports from NA who have seen their salaries drop dramatically in the past few weeks. This will be a problem moving forward with negotiations for next years contracts and beyond if the Euro doesn't recover.

The question is was this just a correction from an artificially high Euro or is the currency really in trouble? Maybe it will bounce back up but right now it doesn't look promising.

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03-04-2010, 10:04 AM
  #90
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"Dramatically" is a bit dramatically, don't you think?
It's gone down a bit, but it was artificially high before that anyway. The Euro had been at around 1.30 Dollar since autumn 2008, with some increases in late 2009. Now it's dropping again.

Salaries aren't going down from normal level, they drop back from way too high to normal. No import-player should be concerned about this, because this is the normal level that has existed for quite some time.

Most of the players signed their deals at the end of the 2009 season, at which time the Euro was pretty much were it is now, if not a bit lower. So the players knew what to expect. They just had the luck of an increasing Euro for some months. Overall, they got more money out of it than they could have expected before the season.

While Greece being in trouble certainly doesn't help the Euro, I'd say you can be pretty sure that the Swiss, British or Americans aren't interested in their currency gaining too much on the Euro.

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03-04-2010, 11:53 AM
  #91
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"Dramatically" is a bit dramatically, don't you think?
It's gone down a bit, but it was artificially high before that anyway. The Euro had been at around 1.30 Dollar since autumn 2008, with some increases in late 2009. Now it's dropping again.

Salaries aren't going down from normal level, they drop back from way too high to normal. No import-player should be concerned about this, because this is the normal level that has existed for quite some time.

Most of the players signed their deals at the end of the 2009 season, at which time the Euro was pretty much were it is now, if not a bit lower. So the players knew what to expect. They just had the luck of an increasing Euro for some months. Overall, they got more money out of it than they could have expected before the season.

While Greece being in trouble certainly doesn't help the Euro, I'd say you can be pretty sure that the Swiss, British or Americans aren't interested in their currency gaining too much on the Euro.
You obviously don't trade in the financial markets. Pretty much everything you say is incorrect. The Euro has taken a 20 cent drop in the past few weeks from what it's been the last year or more and a 15 cent drop from what it's been on average for the past 2 to 3 years. Players that signed for say 100,000 this past season are losing more than $10,000 USD for their pays for January, February, March and April. That means that import players will want more Euros or a guarantee on their exchange rate when negotiating next years salary. You couldn't blame agents and players for asking for some guaranttee's on their salaries. Make no mistake. This will have an impact on hockey and salaries. There are graphs you can look up to see how the Euro has lost it's stability of late. This may be a correction or a downward turn but it seems it's being caused by what's happening in Greece and Spain. Get Greece and Spain back on track and maybe the Euro regains some of it's strength.

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03-04-2010, 12:08 PM
  #92
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Since there are more import players from Canada than the USA I decided to look at the Canadian Dollar vs. the Euro the past 2 years. The USD has taken a beating the past couple of years as well. The Canadian Dollar had remained fairly steady at betwen 1.53 and 1.63 for the past 2 years vs. the Euro. Now it's 1.40 a drop of 23 cents from last summer when these players likely negotiated their contracts. The drop is not as significant in USD due to a weakening of the US greenback. It would be interesting to compare to other countries currencies in Europe for players playing in Germany.

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05-17-2010, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
"Dramatically" is a bit dramatically, don't you think?
It's gone down a bit, but it was artificially high before that anyway. The Euro had been at around 1.30 Dollar since autumn 2008, with some increases in late 2009. Now it's dropping again.

Salaries aren't going down from normal level, they drop back from way too high to normal. No import-player should be concerned about this, because this is the normal level that has existed for quite some time.

Most of the players signed their deals at the end of the 2009 season, at which time the Euro was pretty much were it is now, if not a bit lower. So the players knew what to expect. They just had the luck of an increasing Euro for some months. Overall, they got more money out of it than they could have expected before the season.

While Greece being in trouble certainly doesn't help the Euro, I'd say you can be pretty sure that the Swiss, British or Americans aren't interested in their currency gaining too much on the Euro.
Do you still feel the same way about the Euro? This has to have an effect on teams, salaries and negotiations with North American players. Players who made 50,000 last year will want 65,000 this year - 100,000 last year will want 130,000 this year.

Now I read that Frankfurt is in financial trouble. Players salaries are more likely to drop than rise. Interesting and scary times ahead. The days of feeling entitled are coming to an end in many ways.

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05-27-2010, 12:01 PM
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So today the DEL kicked out Kassel after not being able to do so a few weeks ago because of an embarrassing formal invitation error. But what happened today was even more embarrassing: They actually weren't allowed to decide upon Kassel because of an injunction issued by the cologne disctrict court before the meeting in a cologne hotel. The written injunction couldn't be delivered to the DEL executives though because they constantly switched rooms in order to not be found by the court marshall and the lawyer representing Kassel. Later the executives managed to dissapear through a backdoor of the hotel. Unfortunately that won't help them and now they might be facing either a fee of 250000 or even jailtime.

http://www.hna.de/sport/eishockey/ka...en-780215.html

On a sidenote: The executives briefly listened to the case presented by EHC Munich but have yet to decide on anything in that matter.

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05-27-2010, 12:46 PM
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The entire case is just embarrassing. Forget about our fantastic World Championship, we are back to the hilarious DEL business.

What I don't get about the Huskies' behaviour: if you are breaking the league's rules, why don't you try to cooperate with the other clubs and make friends instead of enemies. All that Mr. Westhelle achieved was to ruin the good name of the Kassel Huskies.

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05-27-2010, 01:20 PM
  #96
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Do you still feel the same way about the Euro? This has to have an effect on teams, salaries and negotiations with North American players. Players who made 50,000 last year will want 65,000 this year - 100,000 last year will want 130,000 this year.

Now I read that Frankfurt is in financial trouble. Players salaries are more likely to drop than rise. Interesting and scary times ahead. The days of feeling entitled are coming to an end in many ways.
The Euro is still right were it was last summer. There may be some trouble in the Euro-zone, but the currency isn't dropping to levels it hasn't seen in the past.

Why should players demand more money now?
The last time they negotiated contracts, the Euro was were it is now. It was only during the season that it started to rise.


Nothing against Kassel, but with that kind of behaviour they simply shouldn't be in the DEL. They burned bridges from day one, no one with common sense does that. They are acting a bit like Jim Basillie, meaning, you shouldn't get on the bad side of someone you want something from.

Now, everyone knows the the DEL is a bit of a joke, but the Huskies are even worse. It appears like they knew they couldn't convince the other teams that they deserve to be there, so they went for the worst possible option, slam everyone you can find.

I really would like to know the reasoning behind the injunction, because I certainly can't see any valid argument for it.

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05-28-2010, 10:31 AM
  #97
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Frankfurt Lions file for insolvency.

http://www.hockeyweb.de/eishockey/artikel.php?a=51671

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05-28-2010, 11:07 AM
  #98
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Frankfurt Lions file for insolvency.

http://www.hockeyweb.de/eishockey/artikel.php?a=51671
What doesn't mean that they are going to be thrown out of the DEL yet. Looks like they are trying to buy some time to talk to more potential sponsors. But it certainly doesn't look good.

The current status of all teams in trouble looks like this:

Kassel - expelled from the DEL. Trying to sue their way back in.
Frankfurt - filed for bankruptcy. I guess we will know more in 3-4 weeks.
Krefeld - awefully quiet over there. But they are still in trouble.
Köln - there are rumours that they are save now. Still waiting for official statement.
München - didn't get a licence for the DEL, but they are trying to persuade the league's board member to let them in.

Okay, there could be still something between 11 and 16 teams in the league next year. I think it's going to be 14. Yay, let the first 10 teams go to the play-offs and the last 4 teams into a relegation round!

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05-28-2010, 11:09 AM
  #99
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Kassel - expelled from the DEL. Trying to sue their way back in.
that's old news. huskies are back in already. at least for now.

http://www.huskies-online.de/aktuell...cfm?suche=1701

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05-28-2010, 12:12 PM
  #100
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Haha, sorry, I should have known that my reply was outdated the minute I wrote it. What I don't get: who gains from having this "Schlammschlacht" in the media every day?

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